Lies and Phony Caricatures of Christianity

[Riders]

It's the oldest that's SURVIVING. There's no evidence it's the oldest that there ever was. Older manuscripts might still be discovered or are lost to history.

In addition, did they copy from a now non-extant manuscript that no longer exists? You don't know. What's more, history in that part of the world was also in the form of oral traditions, that no doubt proceeded written accounts.

So you still have nothing but a theory.

No its not a theory, if there were any older they would have found it. Yous till have not given a reasonable explanation for the fact that jews had access to the flood myth in that time from Babylon because they were brought into babylon to work. They were forced into babylonia and went to the schools and learned to write and read in that vulture and had knowledge of the Babylonia myths.

It was easy for them to pick it up and copy it and bring it to their own home and language. They just happened to be there at the same time, the babylon myths were written, are you saying its a coincidence? All the evidence points to Babylon being the first and scientists agree with this. The first writings were in Babylon.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Good points. The oldest EXTANT texts make the Babylonian account of the flood nearly two millenia older than the Biblical ones.

Now, if there is some INTERNAL evidence (indicators in the text such as obsolete words used only in the period, place names in their original forms, names of historical figures known from other sources to be from the period, etc.) in the Biblical texts that would indicate the Biblical account is older, I would consider it.

 

[Wandering Monk]

It's the oldest that's SURVIVING. There's no evidence it's the oldest that there ever was. Older manuscripts might still be discovered or are lost to history.

In addition, did they copy from a now non-extant manuscript that no longer exists? You don't know. What's more, history in that part of the world was also in the form of oral traditions, that no doubt proceeded written accounts.

So you still have nothing but a theory.

An argument from zero evidence. 'There might be' is weak.

It is too bad you have to resort to this.

We can easily say 'There is no evidence' when there is no evidence.

 

[Riders]

Good points. The oldest EXTANT texts make the Babylonian account of the flood nearly two millenia older than the Biblical ones.

Now, if there is some INTERNAL evidence (indicators in the text such as obsolete words used only in the period, place names in their original forms, names of historical figures known from other sources to be from the period, etc.) in the Biblical texts that would indicate the Biblical account is older, I would consider it.

Yes wiki says Mesopotamia story is from the 17th century bible story is the 6th
Though the account of Noah in the Hebrew Bible has long been the most studied flood story by scholars, in the 19th century AssyriologistGeorge Smith translated the first Babylonian account of a great flood.[2] Further discoveries produced several versions of the Mesopotamianflood myth, with the account closest to that in Genesis found in a 700 BC Babylonian copy of the Epic of Gilgamesh.[3]:20–27 The known versions of the Mesopotamian flood myths have as their protagonists Atrahasis (in the 18th century BC Atrahasis Epic), Ziusudra (in the 17th century BC Sumerian Flood Story), and Utnapishtim (in the 7th century BC Gilgamesh flood myth).[4] The Sumerian King List relies on the flood motif to divide its history into preflood (antediluvian) and postflood periods. The preflood kings had enormous lifespans, whereas postflood lifespans were much reduced. The Sumerian flood myth found in the Deluge tablet was the epic of Ziusudra, who heard the gods' plan to destroy humanity, in response to which he constructed a vessel that delivered him from great waters.[5] In the more detailed Mesopotamian accounts of the flood, the Gilgamesh flood myth and the epic of Atrahasis, the highest god Enlil decides to destroy the world with a flood because humans have become too noisy.[4] The god Ea, who created humans out of clay and divine blood, secretly warns the hero Utnapishtim of the impending flood and gives him detailed instructions for building a boat so that life may survive.[4][6]

 

[Wandering Monk]

Yes wiki says Mesopotamia story is from the 17th century bible story is the 6th
Though the account of Noah in the Hebrew Bible has long been the most studied flood story by scholars, in the 19th century AssyriologistGeorge Smith translated the first Babylonian account of a great flood.[2] Further discoveries produced several versions of the Mesopotamianflood myth, with the account closest to that in Genesis found in a 700 BC Babylonian copy of the Epic of Gilgamesh.[3]:20–27 The known versions of the Mesopotamian flood myths have as their protagonists Atrahasis (in the 18th century BC Atrahasis Epic), Ziusudra (in the 17th century BC Sumerian Flood Story), and Utnapishtim (in the 7th century BC Gilgamesh flood myth).[4] The Sumerian King List relies on the flood motif to divide its history into preflood (antediluvian) and postflood periods. The preflood kings had enormous lifespans, whereas postflood lifespans were much reduced. The Sumerian flood myth found in the Deluge tablet was the epic of Ziusudra, who heard the gods' plan to destroy humanity, in response to which he constructed a vessel that delivered him from great waters.[5] In the more detailed Mesopotamian accounts of the flood, the Gilgamesh flood myth and the epic of Atrahasis, the highest god Enlil decides to destroy the world with a flood because humans have become too noisy.[4] The god Ea, who created humans out of clay and divine blood, secretly warns the hero Utnapishtim of the impending flood and gives him detailed instructions for building a boat so that life may survive.[4][6]

You know what is interesting about the creation of man? I have a book called 'Bible Basics' by a Jewish publishing house. In it they say that the name Adam is short for 'Adonai dam' literally 'the blood of God.' This comports with the story of Kingu. His blood was used by Marduk to create the first human so that he could be the slave of the gods so that they could 'rest.' The gods are the ones having a sabbath, not man.

 

[Riders]

Again I am not the enemy of the bible and Jesus as you Christians make me out to be. I will be reading my bible this year too, Im going to Unity church. But I can read the ark story of Noah and get a good message from it without reading it literally as true.The message is all that counts.

 

[Riders]

You know what is interesting about the creation of man? I have a book called 'Bible Basics' by a Jewish publishing house. In it they say that the name Adam is short for 'Adonai dam' literally 'the blood of God.' This comports with the story of Kingu.

Thats interesting because Jesus was the only was that supposedly had a name that meant he was the God. So that would make Adam and all of us sons and daughters of God!

 

[Spartan]

No its not a theory, if there were any older they would have found it.

You don't know that. One could turn up in a dig tomorrow. Yours is still only a theory.

 

[Spartan]

An argument from zero evidence. 'There might be' is weak.

It is too bad you have to resort to this.

We can easily say 'There is no evidence' when there is no evidence.

We have the written record from Genesis that God (Jesus) himself confirmed in the Gospels. Only eight people got off that boat.

But then you won't believe Jesus either on that when there is a written record of his life and resurrection. So do enjoy your cherry-picking history and archaeology.

 

[Wandering Monk]

We have the written record from Genesis that God (Jesus) himself confirmed in the Gospels. Only eight people got off that boat.

But then you won't believe Jesus either on that when there is a written record of his life and resurrection. So do enjoy your cherry-picking history and archaeology.

These are articles of faith. Not everyone shares those beliefs.

 

[Subduction Zone]

We have the written record from Genesis that God (Jesus) himself confirmed in the Gospels. Only eight people got off that boat.

But then you won't believe Jesus either on that when there is a written record of his life and resurrection. So do enjoy your cherry-picking history and archaeology.

Now you are stating that Jesus was just a man, and I agree with you on that. We know that the Flood story is a myth.

But before we get into how we know can you answer one question:

Can God lie?

 

[Subduction Zone]

What you have is a THEORY, with ZERO evidence to support it.

It's entirely feasible that Noah's flood story was the original, and others piggybacked off of Noah. Noah was there first. And if you say there's no Noah manuscripts, I can argue there were, but they didn't survive.

So, your EVIDENCE is nothing more than a THEORY.

You really need to learn how the meaning of terms. One cannot have a theory without evidence.

And no, we know that the Noah's story is a myth. It does not matter who piggybacked off of who, but the evidence does support that the Epic of Gilgamesh is the older story. But since both are myths does it really matter?

 

[sojourner]

No. Study up on the following and you'll see how bogus it is.

The Case Against Q: Ten Reasons

The Case Against Q: Fallacies at the Heart of Q

Yeah I know all about Goodacre. It depends which “camp” you ascribe to. You seem to want to make these suppositions hard fact; they are not. They are all hypotheses. I feel the Q hypothesis answers more questions than the other side.

 

[sojourner]

Q is a hypothetical and mythical document no one has ever seen. No fragments, no identified author, etc., etc.

See the evidences against Q in the following post: Lies and Phony Caricatures of Christianity

Q was quite possibly orally and not scribally transmitted. The fact that there are no documents is not compelling in this case, since Q is the product of a largely oral culture. In fact, the Synoptics, themselves, were quite possibly oral stories to begin with, until someone wrote them down. They were stories to be heard, not read.

 

[sojourner]

It's the oldest that's SURVIVING. There's no evidence it's the oldest that there ever was. Older manuscripts might still be discovered or are lost to history.

In addition, did they copy from a now non-extant manuscript that no longer exists? You don't know. What's more, history in that part of the world was also in the form of oral traditions, that no doubt proceeded written accounts.

So you still have nothing but a theory.

But we can only go with what is known. Supposition gets us nowhere. You seem to want to dismiss the evidence that we do have.

 

[sojourner]

Unfortunately, progressive indoctrinees do not operate by reason, nor can they 'debate' with facts, logic, civility, and decorum.

This is true of some older conservatives, who are only partially indoctrinated, not like some of the full bore millennials who parrot ALL the tenets of progressive faith.

The Narrative

That is all that matters. Evidence, reason, history, facts... these are irrelevant to the Narrative. It must be repeated, loudly and often.. that is the agenda. Not Truth. Not balance. Not understanding.
No.
Only the Narrative matters, and they repeat it with zealous dedication. Here are a few favorites:

• The bible is full of errors!
• Christians hate education & science!
• Christians are bigots, and want to make a theocracy!
• Christianity is responsible for all human evils!
• Slavery, genocide, conquest, and killing are from Christianity!
• Hitler was a Christian!
• America was founded by irreligious skeptics, who wanted to keep Christians from controlling everyone!

There are, unfortunately, more. These are constantly promoted in the public discourse. Correcting any of these lies in a progressive setting will bring howls of indignation, and cries of, 'Kill the infidel!' 'This blasphemer should not live!'

We are in a time of post Christian transition. Since the 1960s, the trend has been away from judeo/Christian values, and American, Enlightenment principles of governance, toward a socialist/progressive fantasy. Capitalism, America, Christianity, and other bulwarks of human freedom are being dismantled for the new religion of Progressivism. The propaganda drums pound constantly, and few escape their Indoctrination

You’re pounding your own drums here. Your accusations are not universally true and the progressive “agenda” is not what you claim. At all.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You’re pounding your own drums here. Your accusations are not universally true and your progressive “agenda” is not what you claim. At all.

It is so much easier to defend strawman arguments and claims based upon undefined terms. He is yet to clearly state what he would consider an error or a change in the Bible. His other claims tend to be exaggerations which are false because not every Christian is dishonest or whatever claim he has for "all Christians ".

 

[Riders]

We have the written record from Genesis that God (Jesus) himself confirmed in the Gospels. Only eight people got off that boat.

But then you won't believe Jesus either on that when there is a written record of his life and resurrection. So do enjoy your cherry-picking history and archaeology.

I believe Jesus was one of the messiahs crucified yes and I read the bible and I'm a Unity Christian. face it your not the only one...

Sense when have you proven your Noahs myth? i dont see any proof other then saying its the bibles word from you, provide proof or your word means nothing.
As long as theirs no proof the ark story was true I have no reason to believe.But there is a reason to read the bible and get a message out of the ark story...........................

 

[sojourner]

Unfortunately, progressive indoctrinees do not operate by reason, nor can they 'debate' with facts, logic, civility, and decorum.

This is true of some older conservatives, who are only partially indoctrinated, not like some of the full bore millennials who parrot ALL the tenets of progressive faith.

The Narrative

That is all that matters. Evidence, reason, history, facts... these are irrelevant to the Narrative. It must be repeated, loudly and often.. that is the agenda. Not Truth. Not balance. Not understanding.
No.
Only the Narrative matters, and they repeat it with zealous dedication. Here are a few favorites:

• The bible is full of errors!
• Christians hate education & science!
• Christians are bigots, and want to make a theocracy!
• Christianity is responsible for all human evils!
• Slavery, genocide, conquest, and killing are from Christianity!
• Hitler was a Christian!
• America was founded by irreligious skeptics, who wanted to keep Christians from controlling everyone!

There are, unfortunately, more. These are constantly promoted in the public discourse. Correcting any of these lies in a progressive setting will bring howls of indignation, and cries of, 'Kill the infidel!' 'This blasphemer should not live!'

We are in a time of post Christian transition. Since the 1960s, the trend has been away from judeo/Christian values, and American, Enlightenment principles of governance, toward a socialist/progressive fantasy. Capitalism, America, Christianity, and other bulwarks of human freedom are being dismantled for the new religion of Progressivism. The propaganda drums pound constantly, and few escape their Indoctrination

This post is clearly an ideological agenda, cloaked in faith-based narrative, pretending to be unbiased fact. In fact, it is full of gross generalization, fueled by supposition and a whole lot of confirmation bias tilted (naturally) in your favor. In truth, there is no all-encompassing, coordinated “progressive agenda,” and the progressive ideology is not the insidious, “black-ops society” you paint here.

 

[sojourner]

You don't know that. One could turn up in a dig tomorrow. Yours is still only a theory.

You’re arguing from conjecture (which breaks one of the conditions you set for the debate). You must present evidence that one is going to turn up — not just say “nuh-uh!” for your “argument” here to conform to your rules.