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Has Trump committed treason?

sealchan

Well-Known Member
From wikipedia...

In law, treason is criminal disloyalty to the state. It is a crime that covers some of the more extreme acts against one's nation or sovereign. This usually includes things such as participating in a war against one's native country, attempting to overthrow its government, spying on its military, its diplomats, or its secret services for a hostile and foreign power, or attempting to kill its head of state. A person who commits treason is known in law as a traitor.[1]

Okay from this definition it is a clear no except that I think that Trump veers close-ish to treason with respect to his ignoring the assessment of U.S. intelligence and its allies regarding the cyber attacks made by the Russian government to influence the election.

So here is a more specific and hopefully less offensive question:

As president is his denial of U.S. Intelligence potentially a criminal act?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Not exactly just an overall trend in behavior. It is a sincere question on my part.
Specifics?
But the way that Trump has continually rejected the assessment of U.S. intelligence in favor of the word of leaders of foreign countries has me asking this question.
How is this evidenced, or is it speculation?
If he withdraws troops or promotes military objectives of countries against the shared interests of U.S. allies...it seems to be flirting with the idea of treason.

I freely admit this is a stretch...I just am not sure how much of a stretch.

He denies even that Russia attacked the U.S. elections. To what extent is his denial an aid to our enemies?
He has also decried Russia's actions in our election.
How has he aided our enemies to the detriment of the country?
This question should be very specific, since I can think of several
Presidents who I could say worked against our interests.
"Treason" should be more than mere political disagreement.
 
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sealchan

Well-Known Member
I suppose it would come down to how one defines "treason." It would also necessitate defining the interests of these dictators, as well as the interests of the United States.

One thing that I try to keep in mind is that a lot of these dictators and other rogue nations turned out that way because they (for whatever reason) felt the need to defend against imperialism and/or aggression from either the US or countries which are aligned with the US. In a sense, pursuing US national interests over the years has created these situations where we've gotten into bed with some rather unsavory characters associated with unsavory regimes.

Still, if a US president wants to reach out the hand of friendship to former adversaries, I can't see this as an act of treason. Treason involves making war against the United States, but if one is working for peace, that's the opposite of war. (I don't know that Trump is actually working for peace, but I also don't know if he's really in bed with the Russians either.)

If you're talking about "national interests," then that's a can of worms which can be defined and spun in all kinds of directions.

Personally, I try to think outside the box when it comes to foreign policy.

When it comes to foreign interference in the electoral process, that's an issue we'll have to face as a country, as we try to straddle a line between xenophobia/isolation and the openness and globalism that so many have embraced in recent decades. If we really didn't want foreigners to influence America, we would have kept them off our internet and off our airwaves. But it can also be argued that the benefit of having an open society outweighs the risk.

As for our foreign policy overall, I think we need to be a bit more forward-thinking in our perspective on the world, yet so many of our policies tend to reflect Cold War era thinking which may be outdated in today's world. With all the scare-talk about the evil Russians, it's like it's the 1950s all over again. (What always floors me about this is that I encounter so many people, whose only study of Russia amounts to a pamphlet written by Joe McCarthy, think that they're somehow experts in "how Russians think" and what their "true agenda" is. Even if they've never even met a Russian in their lives.)

On a more practical level, I think Trump is making a serious mistake by alienating some of our Latin American neighbors. I think it would be in our better interests to forge stronger ties within our own hemisphere. That would be more practical from a logistical standpoint. We are vulnerable on that front, especially if the Russians and/or Chinese form more satellites in the region due to our own policies which appear unfriendly.

China appears to be more malignant in recent years, but if that's the case, then we will likely need the Russians on our side in the event of any confrontation with China. Despite whatever misgivings we may have about Putin and his regime, I think it's in our better interests to forge better ties with Russia. We need them as an ally, for the sake of US interests. Similarly, when it comes to dealing with countries like Iran or other troubles in that region of the world, we'd be far better off working with the Russians rather than against them.

That would be for our interests, not necessarily their interests - although there would undoubtedly be mutual benefit.

I don't know to what degree they influenced or interfered in the election, although it's an even greater risk when it comes from domestic sources. There's all kinds of shenanigans and corruption associated with the electoral process, so if this whole thing gets the powers that be to get to work and clean up the system and shore up our vulnerabilities on the technical front, then I would see that as a step in the right direction.

But it's too late to unspill the milk, so it's best to just move forward.

Thanks for fleshing this out...

I think that what specifically concerns me in this area is Trump's lack of acknowledgement of U.S. Intelligence and also, perhaps, his military decisions which also do not adhere to any U.S. Intelligence or U.S. military advice. And these, simultaneously serving the interests of foreign military and intelligence operations either directly against us or against our long-standing interests.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Specifics?

How is this evidenced, or is it speculation?k

He has also decried Russia's actions in our election.
How has he aided our enemies to the detriment of the country?
This question should be very specific, since I can think of several
Presidents who I could say worked against our interests.
"Treason" should be more than mere political disagreement.

He has repeatedly and publicly denied the clear assessment of U.S. intelligence agencies that Russia deliberately interfered in the U.S. elections.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
He has repeatedly and publicly denied the clear assessment of U.S. intelligence agencies that Russia deliberately interfered in the U.S. elections.
That's odd.
I've read his criticism of foreign interference.
He's even criticized the Obama administration
for doing nothing about it, despite knowing of it.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I don't want Trump put to death...I just want him to properly held accountable.

I can see now how offensive the OP might be...for that I apologize. But a good answer may be "No, because..." so I will accept those sorts of answers and be guided by them.
You want him held accountable for what ? Do you have actual evidence of treason that contain all the elements of a crime ?

Say I wanted hillary drawn and quartered, so what ? As a member of the political elite, she will not be held accountable for her crimes.

If Trump. or anyone else has committed treason, actually proven, unlike the democrat chimera of collusion, they should be severely punished.

I deal in evidence, not speculation.

If Trump has broken the law, as determined by the agency having jurisdiction, they should say so, and pursue prosecution after he leaves office.,

That is being held accountable. Nothing less is worthwhile
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
That's odd.
I've read his criticism of foreign interference.
He's even criticized the Obama administration
for doing nothing about it, despite knowing of it.
I just heard him say that there was Russian interference, but they were not able to change a single ballot.

He is right
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I just heard him say that there was Russian interference, but they were not able to change a single ballot.

He is right

What makes you think that they were unable to change a single ballot? Do you even know what the Russians were accused of doing? Your post indicates that that is not the case.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
I just heard him say that there was Russian interference, but they were not able to change a single ballot.

He is right

In your fantasies, Russia hacked the DNC and wikileaks released the emails the Russians hacked, probably 100s of thousands of votes were influenced by those events.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
You want him held accountable for what ? Do you have actual evidence of treason that contain all the elements of a crime ?

Say I wanted hillary drawn and quartered, so what ? As a member of the political elite, she will not be held accountable for her crimes.

If Trump. or anyone else has committed treason, actually proven, unlike the democrat chimera of collusion, they should be severely punished.

I deal in evidence, not speculation.

If Trump has broken the law, as determined by the agency having jurisdiction, they should say so, and pursue prosecution after he leaves office.,

That is being held accountable. Nothing less is worthwhile

In this thread i am most definitely dealing in speculation.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I just heard him say that there was Russian interference, but they were not able to change a single ballot.

He is right
Aye, the multifaceted nature of how elections can be interfered with leaves
much room to mischievously infer what lefties want from what he says.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Trump himself admitted that Russia helped him get elected. You believe everything that Trumps says, no????
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
You got him elected by supporting Hillary (the only candidate he could've beaten).

I supported Bernie very strongly, I can't stand Hillary but Trump is clearly worse, did you see the stock market today down 5% 1200 points because of Trump's trade tantrums.
 

Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
I recall this came up a long time ago but was dismissed in the context I saw it considered. However, with the release of the Mueller report and all of the "non-collusion" the president has verbalized, I have to wonder whether it isn't again a worthwhile consideration. Having avoided explicitly "coordinating" has Trump by virtue of knowing the mind of dictators and their agendas acted in a way to promote their interests against those of the United States?
No. Not from what we’ve seen so far.
Here is a useful article addressing this issue.
Opinion | Steve Vladeck: America's overuse of 'treason' has reached alarming levels
The founding fathers specifically define treason in the constitution ,because they knew first-hand how often it was abused as a term out of the mouth of a tyrant to accuse his opposition.
It is undeniable that Trump has repeatedly called his opposition “treasonous” whenever they question him, but the left has rarely used the terms ‘traitor’ or ‘treason’ while describing the incompetent ConMan who resides in the White House now. :shrug:

.....
And the Russian
collusion thingie has evaporated in a puff of desperate &
malicious wishful thinking.
Actually the opposite is happening especially with Mueller’s recent statement. I expect/hope/demand that the congressional investigation will begin soon. :)
Mueller’s investigation makes it clear that there is a lot of evidence showing that Trump is guilty of collusion. Now for some transparency and light.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I supported Bernie very strongly, I can't stand Hillary but Trump is clearly worse, did you see the stock market today down 5% 1200 points because of Trump's trade tantrums.
I put very little stock in fluctuations of the stock market.
Hey, when it's down, you blame him.
When it's up, do you give him credit?
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Since most of the stockholders are Trump supporters, it shows they don't have much faith in him.
 
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