Does it really matter if we believe in God?

[RESOLUTION]

There are only two kinds of procreation: sexual and asexual. God does neither. He doesn't create baby Gods to carry on the species. Procreation is a biological function and God is not a biological being.Furthermore, procreation is part of the circle of life and death. Since God doesn't die, he has no reason to procreate.

It would appear you misunderstood what I saying:-
What I can tell you is that neither term sexual or asexual applied to Adam. Furthermore if God could turn stones into descendants of Abraham then perhaps you do not understand what God being sole creator really is about.

Oh good heavens, I'm a JEW for crying out loud. Jesus was a man, a created beings.

It is Christians who elevate Jesus to "Last Adam." By this they are saying that as Adam began one paradigm, Jesus began the new paradigm. I say the opposite. Adam was the first man. Jesus wasn't the first anything. He's just a regular old Jew practicing Judaism, going around trying to get Jews to observe Torah.

Good we got the created being straight however the last Adam concept is by definition referring to the fact that Adam became a living being...7 Then Adonai, God, formed a person from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, so that he became a living being and Jesus was the man who brought the life giving Spirit. all part of Gods plan.

I hope you don't mind, but your posts are very long,so when you go off topic, I'm just going to pass it by.

It must be very difficult not to understand that my posts do not go off topic. Rather you knowledge of Gods word is limited both in the Torah and KJV as to the teachings God taught man.

We have a radical disconnect here. First of all, if you are talking about the New Covenant that's in the NT, people that believe in that are NOT Jews. They are CHRISTIANS. So I hope you aren't trying to play funny games with me, because I'll cut you off so quick you'll think I did a houdini disappearing act.

It is really bolting the barn stable after the horse has bolted. Truth is the New Covenant is the fulfillment of the covenant foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34. See how easy to explain that was.

Secondly, the New Covenant in Jeremiah hasn't yet come to pass.

You tell me how you would know your Messiah as a descendant of King David where there are none known in this day and age?
If you cannot tell such a simple thing then you are in no position to tell me this has not come to pass as far as Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Do we have the law written on our hearts yet? No. Children must be taught right from wrong. Do all men believe in God? NO. Too many men do NOT believe in God. Have all the Jews been gathered out of the North and from the far ends of the earth and ALL restored to the Land of Israel? Certainly not!!! IOW, the New Covenant that Jeremiah speaks of is still yet to come.

Because men are born Jews and even circumcised foreskins it does not make them all Jews. As true descendant of Abraham they would do as he did. God has set forth the truth before us to choose. Has the full number of Gentiles been called yet? Who were the builders who rejected the true corner stone?

If you did an Houdini disappearance then I would assume it would be to escape the fact you know very little about the bible from the Jewish or "Christian" prospective and would not want people to know your slip is showing.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Very good - Charity in KJV is love.
Now what kind of love is it?
Allow me to write from the Easy To Read Version ERV 1 Cor 13:1-3

1 Corinthians 13:1-3 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
13 I may speak in different languages, whether human or even of angels. But if I don’t have love, I am only a noisy bell or a ringing cymbal. 2 I may have the gift of prophecy, I may understand all secrets and know everything there is to know, and I may have faith so great that I can move mountains. But even with all this, if I don’t have love, I am nothing. 3 I may give away everything I have to help others, and I may even give my body as an offering to be burned. But I gain nothing by doing all this if I don’t have love.

speaking in different [human or angels] language - requires love - HOW?
understanding of all secrets and everything so as to have faith to move mountains - requires love - WHAT?
giving away everything to the poor or offering the body as a burnt offering - requires love - WHY?

Your verse, your explanation.
What is this love?

LOVE can be eros the way of the world fulfilling mans own selfish nature and wants.
It can be:-
Agape:- Love which is selfless and puts other first and serves the good of all.

Jesus was an example of Agape love dedicating his life to God and the truth of his word and showing love and forgiveness for others. Selfless. This love shows throughout the NT teachings about Christ. Christ taught love God and love others as yourself. Your life would be selfless centred on God and on loving others.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes you are misrepresenting my beliefs. I already told you i believed in Gods divine plan and a afterlife and below in this post you still are saying i dont believe this.

I said "if." You seem to be refusing to accept the implications of these positions, so I asked whether it was because they are positions you don't hold.

Yes you are, we are talking about my beliefs here. And if your not, then why bother talking to me then?

This tangent started with you slinging mud at atheists. I corrected you.

You see? Your not listening. I DO BELIEVE in Gods divine plan and a afterlife. How much more clear do i need to spell it out to you?

Great. Then embrace the implications of these positions.

First of all, assuming to know and then attacking motivation is an ad hominum falicious argument. Second of all, motives will indeed dictate peoples actions (aka responsibility).

If you re-phrase this coherently, I'll try to respond.

God wants us to LEARN knowledge and skills (aka "competent") and have RESPONSIBILITY.

Responsibility is irrelevant to what I'm talking about.

When your neighbor's house is on fire, there's nothing irresponsible about calling 911... but it would be irresponsible to refuse to call them and instead futilely try to fight the fire yourself.

Yes, ive heard the saying. Ive never interpreted it that way, for me it was all about letting go of what i cannot control or change.

But you have met people who apply that idea to everything, haven't you?

The christian doctor does believe in a afterlife, not just one thats better either, but one of a heaven and a hell. So, if that doc saves a life, he wants to do two things, make sure that person dont potentially go to hell and two, enact the knowledge he learned from Gods world and keep that person alive for his full years. Just because theres an afterlife dont mean this life is worthless, because God gave us this life too and it serves its purpose as a spiritual training ground BEFORE the afterlife.

This doesn't square with how I've seen Christians react to death. It's pretty rare for them to react as if there's a chance that their departed loved one is in Hell, but at the same time, they tend not to be as happy as someone would be if they really did think their loved one was going to paradise. Instead, their reaction tends to be in line with them feeling that their loved one is just gone... just like an atheist.

But describing this life as "a spiritual training ground" for the afterlife is a good example of what I'm talking about: you devalue this life by making it out to just be a practice session for what really matters.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It would appear you misunderstood what I saying:-
What I can tell you is that neither term sexual or asexual applied to Adam. Furthermore if God could turn stones into descendants of Abraham then perhaps you do not understand what God being sole creator really is about.

Hi Resolution. I don't remember why I was particularly snarky with you in my last post, but I'm sorry. I know that I've been very sick for the past few weeks, and sometimes that makes my patience a bit low, although that's really no excuse. Anyhow, I hope we can start again on a new note.

What I'm trying to say is that Adam was created, not procreated. Procreation is either sexual or asexual, and Adam was not procreated by either means. Procreation is a biological function. Creation is not.

I take with a huge grain of salt what is attributed to Jesus -- the gospels are a mix of oral memory and the corruption of gossip. In this particular case, one has to wonder why a Jew would so degrade the chosen people of God. Truly. It does seem more like an edit that a Gentile Christian would add in the second century when Christianity had turned anti-Semitic.

But let's assume for the sake of argument that Jesus actually said it. It would fall into the category of hyperbole, not literal speech.

It is really bolting the barn stable after the horse has bolted. Truth is the New Covenant is the fulfillment of the covenant foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34. See how easy to explain that was.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 has not yet come to pass, case in point:

1. The law is not yet written on our hearts. Children must be TAUGHT right from wrong. For example, it is quite common for adults to still be confused about sexual sin -- sex outside of marriage is actually the norm.
2. We do NOT all know God. Surely even you must agree with this. Wouldn't you agree that this sounds like something for the world to come?

Because men are born Jews and even circumcised foreskins it does not make them all Jews. As true descendant of Abraham they would do as he did. God has set forth the truth before us to choose. Has the full number of Gentiles been called yet? Who were the builders who rejected the true corner stone?

Please remember that I'm a Jew. I'm very, very familiar with your scriptures, as I'm a student of comparative religion. But I do not accept them any more than I accept the Quran or the Vedas. For you to quote the NT to me would be like a Mormon quoting the BOM to you -- Mormons accept your Bible, but they add to it this text that you consider not inspired of God and filled with errors. That is how Jews feel about your NT. It carries no authority for me.

A Jew is one born of a Jewish mother or who has gone through a halakhic conversion (a conversion according to Jewish law). In other words, who is a descendant of Jacob through the maternal line or has been adopted into the People of Israel. In REALITY, this is the "true" Jew.

However, this misses out on the importance of following the law, the whole POINT of being a Jew. Many Jews fail to appreciate the purpose of being one of the Chosen People, which is to keep the covenant. Thus Deuteronomy 10:16 says "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart."

It doesn't mean that the Jews who don't have "circumcised hearts" aren't real Jews. They are sinful Jews. They need to return to God's way. But they ARE Jews. And Gentiles, unless they halakhically convert, even if they have "circumcised hearts" are not Jews or Israelites or anything of that nature, regardless of what Paul says.

And there is nothing wrong with being a Gentile. It's just a different job. As Jew, I'm a perfectly ordinary Jew and not a Kohen (priest). Nothing second class about that either.

 

[1213]

...
So why does it matter if we believe in God? ....

Bible tells that even demons believe.

You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe, and shudder.
James 2:19

I think more important is, is person loyal/faithful to God. Righteous people are loyal to God and eternal life is for them.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:38

Believing is not as meaningful, because it is also said:


If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.
John 12:47-48

 

[Jos]

There is no free will in the afterlife (either heaven or hell) because we no longer have to choose between good and evil, because if we were good we will just continue living that good life we lived here but if we were evil we will just continue living that evil life.

This is what the Baha’i Faith teaches, but think about it from any Abrahamic religious perspective. If there was free will in the afterlife like we have in this life, why would it be so important to do good deeds and believe in God before we die? Why couldn’t we just hang out on earth and not care about anything but enjoying ourselves in selfish pastimes, knowing we can change after we die? How just would that be for the people who sacrificed their worldly desires and worshiped God in this life?

No, it does not work that way... This might sound harsh, but....

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339​

I do not think that God punishes anyone. We punish ourselves. Receiving a punishment thus equates to not getting the reward one could have had, and they won’t realize what they have lost until after they die. Some people might not even realize it after they die, because they will be in a kind of fog, which is hell. How easy it will be to get out of this self-created hell is anyone’s best guess. It will depend upon the prayers of others and the mercy of God.

I am not saying that all nonbelievers will be in hell. I think that the reasons why they did not believe in God will determine where they end up. If they were sincere and tried to believe in God but couldn’t see any evidence for God’s existence, I like to think that will be a whole lot different from an atheist who arrogantly insisted there can be no God and shuns the Messengers of God and all the religions established by them.

The sincere nonbelievers might be helped by prayers and the mercy of God, whereas the arrogant atheist might not be amenable to any help, from God or others’ prayers, because he might continue in his arrogance. Arrogance is hell, in this life or the afterlife, because it prevents us from spiritual growth.

I know a lot of atheists from all the forums I have participated on for the last six years. I can see the difference. There are many atheists who struggle to believe in God but there are those who arrogantly thumb their noses at God. Any kind of just God is not going to consider them the same, because they are not the same.

I've got a lot of questions but firstly why would a being who doesn't need anything whatsoever create a person who they know will choose to suffer in an afterlife like hell? Like why? What's the point? I know you're probably gonna say because of love or the person freely chose hell but the person wouldn't have suffered if you never created them in the first place so why do it?
Secondly, you say that the part of the path to a good afterlife is doing good deeds in this life but doesn't that contradict what Jesus said about people being saved by grace? Why would God give contradictory messages?
Thirdly, you said that God doesn't need or want anything since He's complete in and of Himself but the Bible says that humans were created for God's pleasure? Is what the Bible saying true? If God created humans for pleasure or for a relationship then He isn't complete in and of Himself and has to create in order to be happy...
Fourth, you say that there was a book that debunked the Christian idea of the afterlife but what about the NDEs of Christians who have seen both heaven and hell?
Lastly, how is this world meant for spiritual growth if babies will get to go to heaven without having to go through trials, tests or tribulations of any kind?

 

[Jos]

I agree with everything here. And i sorta agree with the will part. But tye way i always looked at it is like this: the more pain and resistence we have, the STRONGER our will has to be exercised to do good.

Well in hell, the pain and resistence is the strongest, so the will has to be even stronger. So, the odds are lowered for them being redeemed unless they will it hard enough or Gods mercy kicks in as you said.

I think you said earlier that this world is a place of spiritual growth for believers but what about babies that die young and go to heaven without going through trials, tests or tribulations or any type of spiritual growth? Also isn't working to pass trials, tests and tribulations a form of works and working to be saved rather than being saved by grace?

 

[Jollybear]

I think you said earlier that this world is a place of spiritual growth for believers but what about babies that die young and go to heaven without going through trials, tests or tribulations or any type of spiritual growth?

Dead babies can share in the thousand year reign at the christian resurrection.

Also, they can share in a reincarnation.

Also isn't working to pass trials, tests and tribulations a form of works and working to be saved rather than being saved by grace?

No, its not, because God still does the saving, he just saves those that put in the anitiation effort.

 

[Jos]

Dead babies can share in the thousand year reign at the christian resurrection.

So then what's the point of this world if one can just die a baby and become spiritually perfected and enjoy heaven without having to go through trials or tribulations?

No, its not, because God still does the saving, he just saves those that put in the anitiation effort.

Yes but if they don't put in the work then they don't get saved so it is actually a works based system, isn't it?

 

[Workman]

I've got a lot of questions but firstly why would a being who doesn't need anything whatsoever create a person who they know will choose to suffer in an afterlife like hell?

It is the “not need of anything” that will make one go to hell!
Because one will turn selfish through that way.

 

[Jos]

It is the “not need of anything” that will make one go to hell!
Because one will turn selfish through that way.

The "not need of anything" was in reference to God not the sinner.

 

[Workman]

Like why? What's the point? I know you're probably gonna say because of love or the person freely chose hell

One forgets on how they came into living! A Baby was how one entered; going through the young and innocence is closest to LOVING the TRUE life in their FREE-WILL..without the KNOWLEDGE of the outside world.
when maturity comes out of one it is because of education and knowledge that replaces for their freedom..And at this point when ONE finally knows of how the world works..he/she will know choices will be crucial for their survival in this world.

 

[Workman]

but the person wouldn't have suffered if you never created them in the first place so why do it?

The only suffering for one was knowing in the world that Humans have created for one..but one forgets how they came in through innocently and God was who had put that one through that experience..so to answer this question is for that one chose to believe in science rather forgetting who he/she was to experience as a young free person.
This is not Gods fault! It is your own..you are your own responsibility of own actions.

 

[Workman]

The "not need of anything" was in reference to God not the sinner.

Let me answer your question;
When you realise that one is not a THING! Then you will understand everything and anything is not in one..which means one is a no[thing]

 

[Workman]

I’m sorry Jos..I hope this will help you in your journey.
God bless!

 

[Jollybear]

So then what's the point of this world if one can just die a baby and become spiritually perfected and enjoy heaven without having to go through trials or tribulations?

The thousand year reign at the resurrection does still incorporate a test.

Yes but if they don't put in the work then they don't get saved so it is actually a works based system, isn't it?

Not completely. You see, nomatter who puts in effort and nomatter how much effort is put in, EVERYONE falls short of Gods glory and is justified by grace through faith.

You see?

 

[Workman]

Let me answer your question;
When you realise that one is not a THING! Then you will understand everything and anything is not in one..which means one is a no[thing]

Therefore one should not clinch to everything or anything..for it will become ones problem, therefore everything must die and [no]thing(one) will last forever

 

[Jos]

The thousand year reign at the resurrection does still incorporate a test.

What test?

Not completely. You see, nomatter who puts in effort and nomatter how much effort is put in, EVERYONE falls short of Gods glory and is justified by grace through faith.

You see?

But if God tells someone to do something and they don't do it, won't they go to hell? Therefore isn't salvation still based on works since you'll get punished if you don't do certain things?

 

[Jollybear]

I said "if." You seem to be refusing to accept the implications of these positions, so I asked whether it was because they are positions you don't hold.

Theres no if though. I do believe in God, his plan, ect. Build on the discussion, dont go backwards.

This tangent started with you slinging mud at atheists. I corrected you.

And i refuted your corrections.

Great. Then embrace the implications of these positions.

And just what are these implications? And please dont revert back to the so called motovations i already refuted.

If you re-phrase this coherently, I'll try to respond.

There has got to be some kind of mental block in you. Ill try to rephrase.

Original > First of all, assuming to know and then attacking motivation is an ad hominum falicious argument. Second of all, motives will indeed dictate peoples actions (aka responsibility).

Rephrased > first of all by you assuming to know the motivations of believers and then attack those motivations, that is a straw man argument and ad hominum argument. Do you know what those kind of arguments are? Also motivations do spill over to peoples actions.

Responsibility is irrelevant to what I'm talking about.

Then what are you talking about?

When your neighbor's house is on fire, there's nothing irresponsible about calling 911... but it would be irresponsible to refuse to call them and instead futilely try to fight the fire yourself.

Sure, ok. But, you know a new firefighter whos in training, after hes shown how to fight the fire, he has to go do it himself. The other fire fighters cant keep doing it for him.

Likewise, God cant do everything for us, he gives us responsibility. Do i gotta say this ad infinitum?

But you have met people who apply that idea to everything, haven't you?

I dont know if they apply it to everything or not. But if they do, why not? Control and change what you can and what you cannot, let go. Its a good principle.

This doesn't square with how I've seen Christians react to death. It's pretty rare for them to react as if there's a chance that their departed loved one is in Hell, but at the same time, they tend not to be as happy as someone would be if they really did think their loved one was going to paradise. Instead, their reaction tends to be in line with them feeling that their loved one is just gone... just like an atheist.

You dont know all christians then.

But describing this life as "a spiritual training ground" for the afterlife is a good example of what I'm talking about: you devalue this life by making it out to just be a practice session for what really matters.

No, thats your twisted perception. There is no devaluing this life just because it has tests for the next life. Thats like saying school life is devalued because its full of learning and tests.

 

[Jollybear]

What test?

In the book of revelation theres a thousand year reign of christ on earth in the future. During the begining of that theres a resurrection. After the thousand yeasrs is up, satan is let loose AGAIN.

Babies that died could be put on earth again during this time to learn and be tested.

But if God tells someone to do something and they don't do it, won't they go to hell? Therefore isn't salvation still based on works since you'll get punished if you don't do certain things?

Its not that simple. If you disobey God out of a motive of hate or lack of care, then yea, you go to hell. But, disobying by mistake, or self deception or weakness, whatever and you seek forgiveness and repentence and to grow in your relation to God, you wont go to hell.