Does it really matter if we believe in God?

[Trailblazer]

I think more important is, is person loyal/faithful to God. Righteous people are loyal to God and eternal life is for them.

Believing is not as meaningful, because it is also said:
If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.
John 12:47-48

You are right, being loyal and faithful to God is more important than belief.
Anyone can profess to believe in God, it is their attitude towards God and their behavior towards others that matter most.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Hi IndigoChild5559,

Hi Resolution. I don't remember why I was particularly snarky with you in my last post, but I'm sorry. I know that I've been very sick for the past few weeks, and sometimes that makes my patience a bit low, although that's really no excuse. Anyhow, I hope we can start again on a new note.

Hope you feel better soon and praying for complete healing.

What I'm trying to say is that Adam was created, not procreated. Procreation is either sexual or asexual, and Adam was not procreated by either means. Procreation is a biological function. Creation is not.

Something we both agree on.

I take with a huge grain of salt what is attributed to Jesus -- the gospels are a mix of oral memory and the corruption of gossip. In this particular case, one has to wonder why a Jew would so degrade the chosen people of God. Truly. It does seem more like an edit that a Gentile Christian would add in the second century when Christianity had turned anti-Semitic.

But let's assume for the sake of argument that Jesus actually said it. It would fall into the category of hyperbole, not literal speech.

Dueteronomy 18: 18 -19 means I test what people say. I have to say that given what God himself taught through the Prophets by comparison the major teachings of God and the law weigh heavily on what Christ saying about the Law being true. Let me explain... We know complete obedience to Gods law brought circumcision of the heart to love God and for the descendants of the person too. What God shows through his Old Covenant and his New Covenant is the love for God and others..

Jeremiah 31:31-34 has not yet come to pass, case in point:

1. The law is not yet written on our hearts. Children must be TAUGHT right from wrong. For example, it is quite common for adults to still be confused about sexual sin -- sex outside of marriage is actually the norm.
2. We do NOT all know God. Surely even you must agree with this. Wouldn't you agree that this sounds like something for the world to come?

But this has come to pass as it is a promise received by all who love God. God does not remove his people from the world or make the world fall in line. Since Adam and Eve he makes us choose we have a choice Gods way or our own way. People of both covenants will love God and their neighbour.

Please remember that I'm a Jew. I'm very, very familiar with your scriptures, as I'm a student of comparative religion. But I do not accept them any more than I accept the Quran or the Vedas. For you to quote the NT to me would be like a Mormon quoting the BOM to you -- Mormons accept your Bible, but they add to it this text that you consider not inspired of God and filled with errors. That is how Jews feel about your NT. It carries no authority for me.

As a Jew I would accept only one Scripture those given by the Prophets from God through the Holy Spirit. I would also note that though we have the NT it was never meant to be a Scripture in the sense they believe it is today, But as all words that come from God it is Holy in Truth but the new way of Gods Covenant was to put the LAW within a person hence by Spirit and Truth.
I am sure none of the Apostles thought for one minute their letters would become books for teachings. It is clear OT and NT that the word was to be put within us and no one but Gods Spirit teach us.

A Jew is one born of a Jewish mother or who has gone through a halakhic conversion (a conversion according to Jewish law). In other words, who is a descendant of Jacob through the maternal line or has been adopted into the People of Israel. In REALITY, this is the "true" Jew.

I am born of the Matrilineal life of Jewesses. My mother and her mother born of Jewish parents.

However, this misses out on the importance of following the law, the whole POINT of being a Jew. Many Jews fail to appreciate the purpose of being one of the Chosen People, which is to keep the covenant. Thus Deuteronomy 10:16 says "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart."

The first teaching before the law is that
Genesis 15:6
6 He believed in Adonai, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Abraham did not receive his righteous standing by obeying Gods laws but by believing Gods words to him.
It is the Spirit of God upon which gives us his mark. Prophets spoke his word by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Even if you obeyed the law you received circumcision of the heart.

It doesn't mean that the Jews who don't have "circumcised hearts" aren't real Jews. They are sinful Jews. They need to return to God's way. But they ARE Jews. And Gentiles, unless they halakhically convert, even if they have "circumcised hearts" are not Jews or Israelites or anything of that nature, regardless of what Paul says.

And there is nothing wrong with being a Gentile. It's just a different job. As Jew, I'm a perfectly ordinary Jew and not a Kohen (priest). Nothing second class about that either.

Since God created all human beings and his way through choosing Israel was to save all people then I believe the people who obey God are the true children.
Heart circumcised to love God and others. Thank you for getting back to me.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, thats your twisted perception. There is no devaluing this life just because it has tests for the next life. Thats like saying school life is devalued because its full of learning and tests.

But school is less important than our lives after. You seem to be reinforcing what I've been saying.

You believe in a "safety net" that atheists don't (right?). Do you think that safety nets make people behave more cautiously or more recklessly?

You believe that there are forces for good in the world that atheists don't (right?). Do you think that someone who believes that all good worth doing will eventually get done regardless has more or less reason to do good themselves?

 

[Jollybear]

But school is less important than our lives after. You seem to be reinforcing what I've been saying.

Its not less important if you happen to meet your wife at school, or your friends. And in light of knowledge and skills taking a process to learn, it ultimately teaches patience and respect for this process.

Although, personally i think the current school system takes too long. You just need to learn language, reading and math, basic history. Then leave and choose your career. Anything else you want to learn you can do so on your own. But, thats another topic.

You believe in a "safety net" that atheists don't (right?).

Heaven is a safety net. Hell is not. I believe in both.

Do you think that safety nets make people behave more cautiously or more recklessly?

It depends on the safety net. In the case of medical insurence, i can tell you with absolute honesty that it does NOT make me eat like **** and not exercise. I dont want to depend on medicine or surgeries if i dont have too. I want to be healthy. So i live that way. Im responsible with my health, despite the fact i have medical insurence.

Now in THIS case, about a afterlife, its all the more so we live responsible, because THATS a PART of the test.

You believe that there are forces for good in the world that atheists don't (right?).

Forces for good? As in God? Yes. But God dont force the good.

Do you think that someone who believes that all good worth doing will eventually get done regardless has more or less reason to do good themselves?

That "someone" is not me. If we dont do good, i dont believe God will force others to get it done. God commands responsibility.

 

[Jos]

Babies that died could be put on earth again during this time to learn and be tested.

I think that test is for all nonbelievers but even if it isn't for them, one test like that isn't comparable to the suffering, trials and tribulations others have gone through in order to spiritually grow...

 

[Jos]

It is the “not need of anything” that will make one go to hell!
Because one will turn selfish through that way.

Let me answer your question;
When you realise that one is not a THING! Then you will understand everything and anything is not in one..which means one is a no[thing]

Therefore one should not clinch to everything or anything..for it will become ones problem, therefore everything must die and [no]thing(one) will last forever

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Its not less important if you happen to meet your wife at school, or your friends. And in light of knowledge and skills taking a process to learn, it ultimately teaches patience and respect for this process.

Although, personally i think the current school system takes too long. You just need to learn language, reading and math, basic history. Then leave and choose your career. Anything else you want to learn you can do so on your own. But, thats another topic.



Heaven is a safety net. Hell is not. I believe in both.

I was thinking of God as the safety net, like Jesus describes in Matthew 6:

31 So then, don’t worry saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear?’ 32 For the unconverted pursue these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But above all pursue his kingdom and righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

IOW: "don't worry about material needs; they'll be met."

Do you think someone who believes that his needs will be met no matter what will be more cautious or more reckless than someone who doesn't believe this?

This isn't a hard question.

It depends on the safety net.

The safety net is God.

... or rather, God's grace and mercy, specifically.

Now in THIS case, about a afterlife, its all the more so we live responsible, because THATS a PART of the test.

But the value of this life is only as a test for the next life?

Forces for good? As in God? Yes. But God dont force the good.

What the Bible describes around the Second Coming would be "forcing the good;" don't you believe in that?

That "someone" is not me. If we dont do good, i dont believe God will force others to get it done. God commands responsibility.

You keep saying this, but it's not at all clear why. Did God tell you this personally or something?

 

[Jollybear]

I think that test is for all nonbelievers but even if it isn't for them, one test like that isn't comparable to the suffering, trials and tribulations others have gone through in order to spiritually grow...

The suffering is part of the test.

Sometimes the suffering is not a test though. Sometimes its due to our or ithers bad actions. Its all case specific.

 

[Jollybear]

I was thinking of God as the safety net, like Jesus describes in Matthew 6:

31 So then, don’t worry saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear?’ 32 For the unconverted pursue these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But above all pursue his kingdom and righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

IOW: "don't worry about material needs; they'll be met."

One thing is for sure, your consistent in your twisted perception of religion.

Jesus is not saying DO NOT WORK for a living. Hes saying just control what you can, what you cant, let go.

Ive read Jesus words many times and i never once went away with your perception of it.

Do you think someone who believes that his needs will be met no matter what will be more cautious or more reckless than someone who doesn't believe this?

In a case of "no matter what" in general yes, more reckless. But, thats not what i believe God does. Thats not what the bible teaches either.

Notice i said in general? Thats because some people, like myself, believe there should not be a no matter what. Work should be instituted as a means to respect values.

This isn't a hard question.

No, its not a hard question. But im trying to tell you, fruitlessly, that your question assumes a faulty perception. But, your bent on keeping it because you WANT it that way.

The safety net is God.

... or rather, God's grace and mercy, specifically.

Ok

But the value of this life is only as a test for the next life?

Its not ALL a test, but alot of it is. Plus, the next life, you still have to bring with you the values you gained in the previous life. You cant just throw them away because you "made it" to heaven, now you get to do whatever you want. No, dont work that way.

This life has inherent value, not just as a test. Its value is the gift of life God gave you. The relationships you have. Your work. Your food, house, ect. All these gifts you appreciate.

What the Bible describes around the Second Coming would be "forcing the good;" don't you believe in that?

Your still not getting it. I think your a bit stubborn.

The second comming is when christ colonizes and takes over and astablishes his kingdom on earth. A global kingdom.

That installment is forced. But, big but here. PAY ATTENTION NOW. Christ dont force anyone to be a part of that kingdom. Those who reject him, he kicks out. Those who accept, he lets in. And he knows who truelly accept in there heart, for he sees whats in each person.

Again, responsibility and PURE motivation.

You know the beatitute "blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God".

You keep saying this, but it's not at all clear why. Did God tell you this personally or something?

Come on man, get with the program here. The bible teaches me that. Common sense teaches me that. And MY OWN belief teaches me that. Deal with what i believe, not what i dont believe.

Again, do you know what strawman and ad hominum arguments are? If no, then you need to learn it. If yes, then you need to practice not doing them. And if you think you dont do them, your fooling yourself big time.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've got a lot of questions but firstly why would a being who doesn't need anything whatsoever create a person who they know will choose to suffer in an afterlife like hell? Like why? What's the point? I know you're probably gonna say because of love or the person freely chose hell but the person wouldn't have suffered if you never created them in the first place so why do it?

I cannot say why God does what He does. All I can say is that God gave us all free will to choose so it is a level playing field. Some people choose to turn away from God but they have that chance to turn towards God right up until the last moment before death. So I guess God created us to choose.

Secondly, you say that the part of the path to a good afterlife is doing good deeds in this life but doesn't that contradict what Jesus said about people being saved by grace? Why would God give contradictory messages?

Well, I do not believe that by grace alone we are saved. That is not a Baha’i belief. Saved is not a Baha’i concept because we do not believe in a literal hell as a place we go to. Rather, hell is the state of a soul that is distant from God, and heaven is the state of a soul that is near to God. However, obedience to God’s commandments is also important. Before we can be close to God we have to know God.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5

Thirdly, you said that God doesn't need or want anything since He's complete in and of Himself but the Bible says that humans were created for God's pleasure? Is what the Bible saying true? If God created humans for pleasure or for a relationship then He isn't complete in and of Himself and has to create in order to be happy...

Sorry, but if the Bible actually says that, it is wrong. God does not NEED anything from humans because God is fully self-sufficient.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136

Fourth, you say that there was a book that debunked the Christian idea of the afterlife but what about the NDEs of Christians who have seen both heaven and hell?

You have to read the book and make a choice as to what you believe makes more sense. You can read a little bit about the book before you buy it The Afterlife Revealed

Lastly, how is this world meant for spiritual growth if babies will get to go to heaven without having to go through trials, tests or tribulations of any kind?

That is just the way it works. If a baby or a child dies prematurely, he gets recompense from God in the afterlife, because that is in accordance with God’s Love and Justice.

Question.—What is the condition of children who die before attaining the age of discretion or before the appointed time of birth?

Answer.—These infants are under the shadow of the favor of God; and as they have not committed any sin and are not soiled with the impurities of the world of nature, they are the centers of the manifestation of bounty, and the Eye of Compassion will be turned upon them. Some Answered Questions, p. 240

 

[IndigoChild5559]

We know complete obedience to Gods law brought circumcision of the heart to love God and for the descendants of the person too. What God shows through his Old Covenant and his New Covenant is the love for God and others..

That's a good way to put it, my friend.

I just want to do a spot check to make sure you aren't going to do the Christian turn about where you say that no one can really obey God's law since no one can obey it perfectly.

And LOL, I'm sure you are also aware that we don't need the NT to tell us that the heart of the matter is to love God with all our heart, soul, and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. The Rabbis tell us that this is the heart of the Torah. Agreed?

I am born of the Matrilineal life of Jewesses. My mother and her mother born of Jewish parents.

Nice to have a chance to talk to a fellow yid. So do you consider yourself to be Messianic Jew? Or ???

Normally I don't press for people to convert to Judaism. I'm actually really fine with people being Chrisitans. I am in the school of Jewish thought that considers Chrisitanity shi*tuf, a muddied monotheism, rather than idolatry -- it is perfectly permissable for Gentiles.

However, shi*tuf is not permissable for Jews. We are a priestly people, and have rules of our covenant we must observe that others don't have to go by, just as the kohanim have their own special rules. We have been commanded a very strict form of "no other gods" in that we may not have a god or image of anything in the heavens above or the earth below. That means that we may not consider God to be a man. "God is not a man that he should lie." Numbers 23:19

I'm never going to be rude to you, and God willing I will not be strident. But with a spirit of love, I hope that I can convince you to return to Judaism. It is your birthright, your covenant, your home. Your family is waiting for you.

But first, I want to know more about you. It would be unfriendly of me not to listen, not to make this a two way conversation. Tell me about yourself, and what you believe, and how you came to believe it...

 

[RESOLUTION]

Hi Indigo,

That's a good way to put it, my friend.

I just want to do a spot check to make sure you aren't going to do the Christian turn about where you say that no one can really obey God's law since no one can obey it perfectly.

And LOL, I'm sure you are also aware that we don't need the NT to tell us that the heart of the matter is to love God with all our heart, soul, and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. The Rabbis tell us that this is the heart of the Torah. Agreed?

Very much so that love is an action rather than a reaction. In my heart the OT is the scripture we know to be given by God.
The words of Christ invaluable to seeing how his mind and heart were set on loving God and showing us in turn how to love God and others as God wishes.
The Holy Spirit plays a big part in the lives of the Prophets in the OT and very much present in the life of Christ and the Apostles. But the message to love God and others is the prime teaching.
Both Jew and Christian with circumcised hearts are saved.

Nice to have a chance to talk to a fellow yid. So do you consider yourself to be Messianic Jew? Or ???

Taught by God.:
Isaiah 54:13
13 .All your children will be taught by Adonai;
your children will have great peace.

I have no other answer than the LORD, has taught me opening my eyes and mind to scripture. I do not believe Jesus is God but rather the Son of God and I believe he is the Messiah.
The only things I can be sure about is that God created us and that he will come with the angels and judge the world. What we do here matters and counts. I believe like the Apostle
Peter these things...
36 “Here is the message that he sent to the sons of Isra’el announcing shalom through Yeshua the Messiah, who is Lord of everything. 37 You know what has been going on throughout Y’hudah, starting from the Galil after the immersion that Yochanan proclaimed; 38 how God anointed Yeshua from Natzeret with the Ruach HaKodesh and with power; how Yeshua went about doing good and healing all the people oppressed by the Adversary, because God was with him.

In the bible when referring to God the Father they write LORD in capital letters and when referring to Christ as Lord. Man has added so much and taken away so much the world is left fighting sometimes and wondering what is real when it comes to faith in God the creator. The only sure way we have is:- to obey God and love him with all our hearts,mind and strength and love our neighbour as ourselves.

Normally I don't press for people to convert to Judaism. I'm actually really fine with people being Chrisitans. I am in the school of Jewish thought that considers Chrisitanity shi*tuf, a muddied monotheism, rather than idolatry -- it is perfectly permissable for Gentiles.

If Christians were taught OT first especially about the Exodus and Moses mingled with Abraham, they would have a clearer picture of who the Messiah is and what his purpose. In all my life I have never spoken out as I do now. What I say here matters because God has been the largest part of my life the one person I have been able to rely on. God has always a good reason so I speak trusting in him.Basics is what is essential and truth the up most important part in anything taught about God.

However, shi*tuf is not permissable for Jews. We are a priestly people, and have rules of our covenant we must observe that others don't have to go by, just as the kohanim have their own special rules. We have been commanded a very strict form of "no other gods" in that we may not have a god or image of anything in the heavens above or the earth below. That means that we may not consider God to be a man. "God is not a man that he should lie." Numbers 23:19

I trust you are referring to Christians calling Christ God? The truth is the first Christians never called Christ God. Thomas the apostle (honest Thomas) was known to say.
John 20:28
28 T’oma answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

It is important to note the lower case in the word Lord. Referring to Christ as Messiah and not as God and referring to God as talking through him and being with him.
Unfortunately, people believe he is calling Jesus - God. Whereas a Jew he is recognising God is speaking through him and with him as promised to Moses. If Thomas had been speaking to Christ as God then only My LORD, or My God would have been appropriate,

I'm never going to be rude to you, and God willing I will not be strident. But with a spirit of love, I hope that I can convince you to return to Judaism. It is your birthright, your covenant, your home. Your family is waiting for you.

But first, I want to know more about you. It would be unfriendly of me not to listen, not to make this a two way conversation. Tell me about yourself, and what you believe, and how you came to believe it...

I am a product of Gods promises. Not perfect but I know the truth about God does not change however much we might fail him. I believe that God is one God and there is no other God before or after him. I do believe Jesus is the Son of God and he taught that which is in the OT concerning the truth of the teachings of all Gods Prophets and the Holy Spirit is the seal and Gods power in man which marks us belonging to God. God is my judge and the one person I am answerable to. But like yourself, I am bound to obey the good laws of the land and serve whoever God anoints over us to rule.Maybe not accepted by Jew or Christian but nevertheless I place my trust in the one true God and I do not accept any other God. I do not accept the Roman Catholic Chiurch or the Pope as being an intermediate for God. I do not accept the Quran or any other religious books or teachings outside the Prophets YHWH. Men may Judge me but truth is truth. What do you believe?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I have no other answer than the LORD, has taught me opening my eyes and mind to scripture. I do not believe Jesus is God but rather the Son of God and I believe he is the Messiah.

We should discuss whether Jesus is the Messiah. It's an important question. Christians invent an awful lot of "messianic prophecies" out of whole cloth, sometimes even making up verses that don't exist, but usually just pulling verses utterly out of context. The truth is that there are very few messianic prophecies, and Jesus just didn't fulfill them.

Even Christians acknowledge that Jesus did not fulfill "all" the prophecies -- they say he will fulfill "the rest" when he comes back a second time. We Jews say you either fulfill them and your the messiah, or you don't and you aren't.

Here are the prophecies Jesus never fulfilled:
1. He never brought all the Jews back to the land of Israel.
2. He never ruled from Jerusalem.
3. He never ushered in an era of worldwide peace, as in nation shall not lift up sword against nation (none of this inner peace business).

In the bible when referring to God the Father they write LORD in capital letters and when referring to Christ as Lord.

Never in the Tanakh is the word Lord referring to the Messiah. It sometimes refers to God. It can refer to a King or overlord, such as in Psalms 110 where it refers to King David. You cannot assume that when God is referred to as Lord that it is referring to the Messiah -- but then you are not Trinitarian, so I know you agree with this.

If Christians were taught OT first especially about the Exodus and Moses mingled with Abraham, they would have a clearer picture of who the Messiah is and what his purpose.

I suspect that if Christian children were taught Hebrew and the Torah first before anything, that we would see a lot more converts in our synagogues.

In all my life I have never spoken out as I do now. What I say here matters because God has been the largest part of my life the one person I have been able to rely on. God has always a good reason so I speak trusting in him.Basics is what is essential and truth the up most important part in anything taught about God.

I am actually glad that you've drawn nearer to God. I'm just pointing that that you've mixed up some mistakes with some of the truth. I actually appreciate you sharing with me, first because I genuinely care about you as a fellow Jew. But also because I can understand you better if I actually listen.

I trust you are referring to Christians calling Christ God? The truth is the first Christians never called Christ God. Thomas the apostle (honest Thomas) was known to say.
John 20:28
28 T’oma answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

It is important to note the lower case in the word Lord. Referring to Christ as Messiah and not as God and referring to God as talking through him and being with him.
Unfortunately, people believe he is calling Jesus - God. Whereas a Jew he is recognising God is speaking through him and with him as promised to Moses. If Thomas had been speaking to Christ as God then only My LORD, or My God would have been appropriate,

We are miles ahead in that you do not believe Jesus is Hashem.

Personally, I think this text was altered over time to make it more trinitarian. I agree with you that the earliest church simply did not have this "Jesus is God" thing going on. However, as it is NOW written, it clearly means that Thomas thinks Jesus is God. You are giving a defense that makes no sense. The only thing you can really do is say that the text is not the original or that Thomas is mistaken. Either way, you put yourself on the other side of the fence with other believers in "Jesus Christ."

Men may Judge me but truth is truth. What do you believe?

I agree -- truth is truth. There is some truth in all religions, but not all religions are equally truth. It is our responsibility to look for that truth, and to stay true to it when we find it. I respect you for having the integrity to do so. My objective is to simply help you out along the way. Unlike other peoples in this world, you do not have the freedom to dilly dally with other faiths. You belong to a priestly people. Your job is to be a light to the nations, not to spend your life trying out different religions. This is why I say to you, unlike all the other in here who are seeking, to you I say, come home to your people and your covenant and your God. Come home to Israel.

Me? What do I believe? I'm just a simple Jew. I don't have all the answers. I need to study more Talmud, I'm ashamed to say. I just don't want to study it alone, and my synagogue has no classes. Earlier in my life, when I was Orthodox, it was generally discouraged for women, although I did sit in the back of the room for lectures on more than a few occasions. I enjoy the Pirkei Avot. I approach the texts as though they are historical, but the truth is I am not sure if they are. I'm simply not interested in whether they are historical or not -- it is more important to me that they tell me who I am, who the Jewish people are, and who our God is.

I am a very, very complicated person, so it is extremely difficult for me to try to put things down in a simple paragraph. I know God in many ways, and each of those ways says as much about me as it does about God. I know God from the sacred texts. I know him from obeying his laws. I know him from being a part of his people. I know him from the awe and design of the natural world (I could write volumes of poetry on just this one thing). I know him from the love I receive from others in my life. And I know him from what scholars would call mystical/religious experiences -- these are times when I feel God is so close that it is as if he has touched my very soul. It is impossible for me to put these things into words-- even what I just said isn't good enough.

There has always been something in me that has wanted to be a Tzaddik. I have wanted to serve God 100%, nothing held back. I have desired his wisdom. I'm not saying any of that is true about me. Only that the wanting of it has been the number one driving force in my life. Because of it, I have spent a lot of time in prayer and meditation the Torah and the laws. I have sought to increase my obedience.

And it hasn't just been my Judaism. I have really really been into comparative religion. Sometimes when you hear the words the same way all the time, you become numb to them. When you go to a different religion and hear the same concept taught but a different way, it breaks through that numbness and comes alive again. I have had the good fortune to meet some highly spiritual people of all different faiths. For some reason, they just seem to notice me, to pick me out. Maybe that has been God's hand. I think of these other religions, "There is much truth and beauty there, but it is for them, it is not for me." I confess that there are times it does get confusing, but all in all everything in my life keeps me here, at the center of Judaism, my home.

Have you ever heard of Tovia Singer? He is an Orthodox Rabbi who discusses reasons why Jews should stick with Judaism, rather than jump the fence into Christianity. I used to email with him, and I have both volumes of his books, "Let's Get Biblical." A lot of the material I present to you I originally got from him, so I want to make sure he gets credit.

Well, this is getting way too long, so I'm going to quite while I'm still ahead.

Shalom, my friend.

 

[ManSinha]

I am bound to obey the good laws of the land and serve whoever God anoints over us to rule

Thanks for an informative post - I decided to quote that sentence because it reminded me of a rather tragic character in the Mahabharata - called Bhishma Pitamah - easily the foremost, most accomplished warrior of his time - he was sworn to serve the throne - and it is said of him - that he represents the bondage that dogma causes to a righteous and intelligent person.

Interesting comparison ......

 

[Trailblazer]

We should discuss whether Jesus is the Messiah. It's an important question. Christians invent an awful lot of "messianic prophecies" out of whole cloth, sometimes even making up verses that don't exist, but usually just pulling verses utterly out of context. The truth is that there are very few messianic prophecies, and Jesus just didn't fulfill them.

Even Christians acknowledge that Jesus did not fulfill "all" the prophecies -- they say he will fulfill "the rest" when he comes back a second time. We Jews say you either fulfill them and your the messiah, or you don't and you aren't.

Didn't Jesus fulfill some of the prophecies?
If Jesus did return and fulfill the rest of them, why wouldn't Jews believe He was the Messiah?

Here are the prophecies Jesus never fulfilled:
1. He never brought all the Jews back to the land of Israel.
2. He never ruled from Jerusalem.
3. He never ushered in an era of worldwide peace, as in nation shall not lift up sword against nation (none of this inner peace business).

When you have time, could you post me the verses in your scripture that correspond to those prophecies?

 

[osgart]

I think God understands that its not healthy to believe in God when you have never met God.

But all i imagine a God would be, that i believe in.

God isnt going to be affected one way or another until we establish a relationship.

If i were evil then God might do something about it. Like warn me not to pursue that course of intention.

God might give me a manual though, on how to know thyself and do something about it. And i wouldnt have to rely on ancient sand dwellers.

Heck God would even put up a justice system right here on Earth.

I might never ever have to resort to eating animals ever again too!

And with all that omnipotence and authority over me, i am sure God would deliver me the best possible plan for me to follow, in the best possible way.

I am quite sure God would leave none of us to our own devisements.

Best to worst we would all know something about God, certainly enough to know that God exists!

An Eternal Good, and Evil sit down judgment for each of us is certainly a must.

Everybody would get their deserve!

Evil would be solidly defeated, perhaps in the hearts of all too! Omnipotent means nothing is impossible for God to do. Nothing!

God might punish the evildoer, with time, and deprivation of the truth, philosophically, and experientially. And perhaps this universe is an example of that!

I do know some extremely innocent folks that deserve to be in heaven though, and they ain't. They deserve divine protection and enlightenment at least and they aint getting it.

So i guess we'll just suck it up and live to the best of our own ability and might.

After all, all one can do is their best!

 

[Trailblazer]

I think God understands that its not healthy to believe in God when you have never met God.

I think God wants us to believe in Him even though we will never meet Him in this life. That is what faith is all about. I cannot say if we will ever meet God in the afterlife, that remains a mystery.

God isnt going to be affected one way or another until we establish a relationship.

That is true. It is in the Hidden Words.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Didn't Jesus fulfill some of the prophecies?
If Jesus did return and fulfill the rest of them, why wouldn't Jews believe He was the Messiah?

When you have time, could you post me the verses in your scripture that correspond to those prophecies?

The prophecies that Christians believe Jesus fulfilled were not actually messianic prophecies. In most cases they are verses taken out of context. In some cases they are mistranslations into Greek. In one case, a non-existent verse is cited.

I participated on a Woman's Jewish and Catholic board that created an interfaith seminar each year. We were all good friends, and had a kind of running joke between us that when the messiah comes and fulfills all the prophecies, we'll ask him if this is his first time or if he's been around before. If it's his first time, all the Catholics will convert to Judaism. If he says he's been here before, the Jews will become good Catholics. Of course, this is kind of tongue in cheek.

But the point is, if someone comes and fulfills all the prophecies of the messiah, we will accept him. Period. But he has to fulfill them all. He can't say, "Well I'm Chinese in this life, but I was born a Jew in my last life."

Okay, let's look at the prophecies which MUST be fulfilled. These are basically descriptions of the Messianic Era, and they are tied to the Messiah, since he will reign as King during that time. In each case, there is more than one passage, but I will pick one that I personally prefer.

1. He will bring all the Jews back to Eretz Yisrael. Isaiah 43:5-6

“Do not fear, for I am with you;
I will bring your offspring from the east,
And gather you from the west.
“I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’
Bring My sons from afar
And My daughters from the ends of the earth​

Jesus does not fulfill this in two ways. A. because first of all in his time, Jews WERE living in the Land, and secondly because in his time, those Jews which were not living in the land, were not brought back to it.
The reality of this prophecy is that it ref2ers to a time when Israel has been living in Diaspora (such as the 2000 years we have just been through) and then are regathered into Israel (which we are in the process of as we speak).

2. The Messiah will reign from Jerusalem. I admit I am having difficulty finding the exact scripture I want -- mostly because I can't remember it's exact wording. But the Messiah is referred to as David, or King David. David wasn't a suffering servant or a prophet or a wise guru. He was a King who ruled from a throne in Jerusalem. When we say that the Messiah is David, we are saying that the Messiah is David's rightful heir and the King of Israel. We are also saying that he will unite Israel and restore Jerusalem as David did.

2.1 Although I didn't mention it, we should not let this conversation pass without giving due diligence to the idea that the Temple will be rebuilt and the Messiah may be the one to do it. There are i.e. verses that support the idea that the priests will ALWAYS be offering sacrifices, but this particular verse is my favorite: Ezekiel 37:26-28
26 "I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”

3. He will usher in an era of literal world peace. The many verses speak of "They shall beat their swords into plowshares...Nation shall not lift sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." Isaiah 2:4 And of course there is the famous, "The Wolf shall lie down with the Lamb." Isaiah 11:6 This is not the "inner peace" that Christians speak of, but tangible, measurable, peace between nations.

4. I could list other things as well. It was never meant to be an exhaustive list. For example, In the messianic age, there will be a new covenant where we will not need to be taught right from wrong, and everyone will automatically know God. OBVIOUSLY that is not true yet. It's OBVIOUSLY not the new covenant that Christians speak of. Jeremiah 31:33-34
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord."

 

[RESOLUTION]

PART ONE.

We should discuss whether Jesus is the Messiah. It's an important question. Christians invent an awful lot of "messianic prophecies" out of whole cloth, sometimes even making up verses that don't exist, but usually just pulling verses utterly out of context. The truth is that there are very few messianic prophecies, and Jesus just didn't fulfill them.

Even Christians acknowledge that Jesus did not fulfill "all" the prophecies -- they say he will fulfill "the rest" when he comes back a second time. We Jews say you either fulfill them and your the messiah, or you don't and you aren't.

Here are the prophecies Jesus never fulfilled:
1. He never brought all the Jews back to the land of Israel. (Israel as in the way of Jacob or Israel the place? It is through Jesus the Jews returned in the 1940's.)
2. He never ruled from Jerusalem. ( Did God rule in Jerusalem? Did he not enter on a Donkey was his rule Spiritual or worldly?)
3. He never ushered in an era of worldwide peace, as in nation shall not lift up sword against nation (none of this inner peace business).( You don't see a greater time of peace and Christ ruling
amongst men as saviour throughout the world?)

I would suggest the teaching of Moses and that every Jew knows the Messiah was to bring the final truth.
You also believe the Messiah will come from the line of David. However in this day and age there is no records to show that line. Does this make the descent impossible now?
Jesus was born of the line of David but more importantly he showed that he knew the scriptures and did as God would do,
We can all think our way is the right way. But I believe Christ taught us to put God first, not him and to love others. The way things come to pass are not always the ways of man.
But the first commandment is always to put God first.

Never in the Tanakh is the word Lord referring to the Messiah. It sometimes refers to God. It can refer to a King or overlord, such as in Psalms 110 where it refers to King David. You cannot assume that when God is referred to as Lord that it is referring to the Messiah -- but then you are not Trinitarian, so I know you agree with this.

The bible was translated by Jewish scholars off the top of my head I believe st Jerome is mentioned. The Jewish scholars were very careful when translating the OT and they always referred to
God/LORD in capital letters to ensure the person reading knew it was God they were referring to.

We know Baal was not really one god but many gods (worship of nature) referred to as Lord, hence there is a defined use of the capital letters of LORD for God in the bible.
Where they had to provide a similar word it was duly noted in the column at the side. So I know that the KJV of the bible is the nearest to the real translation of the Torah.or
Pentateuch. I have faith that the Jewish Scholars knew better than those today. Trinitarian is a belief which did not really come into early existence till the 400 AD it was suggested in the OT but
never confirmed. What is confirmed is the FATHER God and the Spirit and the Messiah exist and that God is in all three, So rather than three persons making one God. One God is in all three
persons. If equality was given to all equally then blasphemy would also be not forgiven for all three. I believe God in three persons rather than God being three persons.

I suspect that if Christian children were taught Hebrew and the Torah first before anything, that we would see a lot more converts in our synagogues.

Isaiah 54:- God has provided for his children for all their needs. To be taught of God is to be taught by the Spirit. If every man was born of Gods Spirit they too would be as the
Prophets and taught by the bringer of truth. You know your bible so you know that Gods Spirit is always the mark of a man taught by God.

I am actually glad that you've drawn nearer to God. I'm just pointing that that you've mixed up some mistakes with some of the truth. I actually appreciate you sharing with me, first because I genuinely care about you as a fellow Jew. But also because I can understand you better if I actually listen.
We are miles ahead in that you do not believe Jesus is Hashem.

I believe Jesus is the Son of God and that he was sent by God and in all things he did as God wanted him to do.
What others have done with writings since has nothing to do with his teachings. Teachings which show the real power if not always in signs and miracles but living the truth as God wants us to.
It is better to obey God than follow our own hearts and God offers no confusion. To be in truth we have to start from the point that God is truth and cannot lie, That man lives by every word which
proceeds from Gods mouth.

Personally, I think this text was altered over time to make it more trinitarian. I agree with you that the earliest church simply did not have this "Jesus is God" thing going on. However, as it is NOW written, it clearly means that Thomas thinks Jesus is God. You are giving a defense that makes no sense. The only thing you can really do is say that the text is not the original or that Thomas is mistaken. Either way, you put yourself on the other side of the fence with other believers in "Jesus Christ."

The stumbling block and the reason so many Jews do not believe. I feel I should explain why Thomas referring to Christ as Messiah and acknowledging God does make sense.
Truth puts a person on the side of God.28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
The Lord is lower casing so not referring to God but Jesus as Messiah. If Thomas had been referring to Christ as both Lord and God he would have said. My LORD GOD.
15 “Adonai will raise up for you a prophet like me from among yourselves, from your own kinsmen. You are to pay attention to him, 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I order him. 19 Whoever doesn’t listen to my words, which he will speak in my name, will have to account for himself to me.

Jesus said :- My words are Spirit and they are life."

So Thomas cannot be referring to Jesus as Messiah and as God. He is referring to Jesus as Messiah lower case and he is referring to the fact God himself present putting the words in his
mouth. Did not God say unto Moses...7 But Adonai said to Moshe, “I have put you in the place of God to Pharaoh, and Aharon your brother will be your prophet.

God will not share his glory with another. I am Adonai; that is my name.
I yield my glory to no one else,

It takes people away from acknowledging that Jesus is Gods Messiah and that it is only in Spirit we can understand his teachings.

 

[RESOLUTION]

PART TWO.

Too long for one. Abbrev next time
IndigoChild5559

I agree -- truth is truth. There is some truth in all religions, but not all religions are equally truth. It is our responsibility to look for that truth, and to stay true to it when we find it. I respect you for having the integrity to do so. My objective is to simply help you out along the way. Unlike other peoples in this world, you do not have the freedom to dilly dally with other faiths. You belong to a priestly people. Your job is to be a light to the nations, not to spend your life trying out different religions. This is why I say to you, unlike all the other in here who are seeking, to you I say, come home to your people and your covenant and your God. Come home to Israel.

May be I am wrong but I believe outside YHWH there is no religion that has truth if it does not make YHWH the only God.
I have looked into other faiths because my beliefs and Gods words must hold up to the claims they make. No one should believe for the sake of believing but to ensure we really
have a personal faith by truth. I personally would never like to be someone who mislead another.

Me? What do I believe? I'm just a simple Jew. I don't have all the answers. I need to study more Talmud, I'm ashamed to say. I just don't want to study it alone, and my synagogue has no classes. Earlier in my life, when I was Orthodox, it was generally discouraged for women, although I did sit in the back of the room for lectures on more than a few occasions. I enjoy the Pirkei Avot. I approach the texts as though they are historical, but the truth is I am not sure if they are. I'm simply not interested in whether they are historical or not -- it is more important to me that they tell me who I am, who the Jewish people are, and who our God is.

I like what you write. For me the word of God should do as it says. If obeying the commandments or believing in Christ brings you baptism of the Spirit then it should do just that.
King David and the Prophets all attest to the one true God and that is how it should be for people of faith today. When I need scripture God brings it to mind. The bible can make you fear God but
it teaches that it should bring you to love and know God, and others.

I am a very, very complicated person, so it is extremely difficult for me to try to put things down in a simple paragraph. I know God in many ways, and each of those ways says as much about me as it does about God. I know God from the sacred texts. I know him from obeying his laws. I know him from being a part of his people. I know him from the awe and design of the natural world (I could write volumes of poetry on just this one thing). I know him from the love I receive from others in my life. And I know him from what scholars would call mystical/religious experiences -- these are times when I feel God is so close that it is as if he has touched my very soul. It is impossible for me to put these things into words-- even what I just said isn't good enough.

There has always been something in me that has wanted to be a Tzaddik. I have wanted to serve God 100%, nothing held back. I have desired his wisdom. I'm not saying any of that is true about me. Only that the wanting of it has been the number one driving force in my life. Because of it, I have spent a lot of time in prayer and meditation the Torah and the laws. I have sought to increase my obedience.

And it hasn't just been my Judaism. I have really really been into comparative religion. Sometimes when you hear the words the same way all the time, you become numb to them. When you go to a different religion and hear the same concept taught but a different way, it breaks through that numbness and comes alive again. I have had the good fortune to meet some highly spiritual people of all different faiths. For some reason, they just seem to notice me, to pick me out. Maybe that has been God's hand. I think of these other religions, "There is much truth and beauty there, but it is for them, it is not for me." I confess that there are times it does get confusing, but all in all everything in my life keeps me here, at the center of Judaism, my home.

Have you ever heard of Tovia Singer? He is an Orthodox Rabbi who discusses reasons why Jews should stick with Judaism, rather than jump the fence into Christianity. I used to email with him, and I have both volumes of his books, "Let's Get Biblical." A lot of the material I present to you I originally got from him, so I want to make sure he gets credit.

Well, this is getting way too long, so I'm going to quite while I'm still ahead.

Shalom, my friend.

It is a very personal concept that each of us and many others have in our faith. It is brave to talk about your faith and I felt God wanted me to open up to you.
In my life I have had personal experience of being spoken to by a person I believe was God. Or even from God. My life has been such that many personal tragedies have occurred.
But God has always brought us through. None of us are perfect of ourselves and all have sinned. Tovia Singer sounds familiar but I have looked at so many things written over the years.
There is no fence to Christianity because it is either accept Jesus as Messiah or don't. Sid Roth and Rabbi Jonathon Bernis I have listened to and watched some of their programs.
But none can answer the 'Trinity' question, When I studied the history and found where Contantine incorporated Christianity into the Roman faith and gave freedom to practice that
a change was made. This is where I believe true Christianity was ignored and Rome once again tried to rule the world through hijacking Christianity to try and make it their own.
But like most Christianity cannot be taken by force nor can it be subdued into something it is not. Romans had worship of the black madonna and it was through this that Mary was given a higher place than truth.

Many things make up my beliefs but there are beliefs which were not part of Christianity and yet held in tenets of faith today.

I believe Christ said it best when he said.

19 “Sir, I can see that you are a prophet,” the woman replied. 20 “Our fathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that the place where one has to worship is in Yerushalayim.” 21 Yeshua said, “Lady, believe me, the time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Yerushalayim. 22 You people don’t know what you are worshipping; we worship what we do know, because salvation comes from the Jews. 23 But the time is coming — indeed, it’s here now — when the true worshippers will worship the Father spiritually and truly, for these are the kind of people the Father wants worshipping him. 24 God is spirit; and worshippers must worship him spiritually and truly.”

25 The woman replied, “I know that Mashiach is coming” (that is, “the one who has been anointed”). “When he comes, he will tell us everything.” 26 Yeshua said to her, “I, the person speaking to you, am he.”

In DUETERONOMY 18.
20 “‘But if a prophet presumptuously speaks a word in my name which I didn’t order him to say, or if he speaks in the name of other gods, then that prophet must die.’ 21 You may be wondering, ‘How are we to know if a word has not been spoken by Adonai?’ 22 When a prophet speaks in the name of Adonai, and the prediction does not come true — that is, the word is not fulfilled — then Adonai did not speak that word. The prophet who said it spoke presumptuously; you have nothing to fear from him.

So far what Christ has spoke has come true and his words have spread across the world. But it is spirit and truth.

They seem to get longer with QUOTES. We appear to be writing a book. Shalom,