Where is the proof ?

[loverofhumanity]

Kinda dodging the point, aren't you?

If you're going to argue, effectively, that your intuition about God is reliable, then what makes your intuition more reliable than all the people - theist or atheist - whose intuition tells them that your intuition is wrong?

Edit: if you're sure that *I* have been led to the wrong conclusion, how can you be sure that you haven't been led to a wrong conclusion as well?

The thing is I can’t dispute what your investigation has turned up for yourself i can only go by what my search has revealed to me and my experience. So that’s where we part because my conclusion is subjective and so is yours and both really are just up to the individual to decide for himself.

I can only say for myself that is what I believe but I can’t tell you you’re right or wrong that’s something you have to decide for yourself. If you believe I’m wrong then so be it. But without having experienced my experiences I don’t think you can make such a call.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That’s what I believe.only my opinion.

Except for telling real "Divine Educators" from false ones, right? That's what you said before, isn't it?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The thing is I can’t dispute what your investigation has turned up for yourself i can only go by what my search has revealed to me and my experience. So that’s where we part because my conclusion is subjective and so is yours and both really are just up to the individual to decide for himself.

You seem to be changing your position.

Earlier, you said "the mind can err but the soul is able to recognise God as it was created for that purpose." IOW, the soul - e.g. my soul - can't err in recognizing God... right?

I can only say for myself that is what I believe but I can’t tell you you’re right or wrong that’s something you have to decide for yourself. If you believe I’m wrong then so be it. But without having experienced my experiences I don’t think you can make such a call.

Going by what you've said, I can. If the soul really, truly can recognize God without fail, then I can be satisfied that the fact I've never recognized God means that God wasn't there for me to recognize him.

OTOH, if you think that the judgement of our souls can sometimes be wrong, it's unclear why you would assume that your own soul's judgement must be right.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm just having a conversation about your beliefs. I knew you had a different view coming in. The fact that you have a different view, is in fact the entire reason of the conversation. We'ld have nothing to talk about if we agreed on everything.

So why would I "move on", when us having different views is the prime reason for why we engage with eachother on this discussion/debate forum?



I think there's much to discuss and I don't think I once said to you that you are wrong or that I am right.
In fact, I don't even think I even shared my views yet - so what would I be right about?

What this engage at this point is about, is no more or less as you having presented a few reasons for why you believe what you believe, and me questioning the validity of your methodology by pointing out that other people using the same methodology have come to vastly different conclusions then you.

So what I'm really asking is, why should I believe you?
Or why should I believe you over those others, who worship very different gods then you do?
Why don't YOU worship the same god as those others?

If you are sincere about wanting to be rationally justified in your beliefs, surely you've asked yourself such questions at some point...

Fair enough. But I don’t think you should believe me or anyone but conduct your own independent independent investigation for yourself so only using your own mind arrive at your own conclusions. The best I can hope to do is point to the source of my beliefs and then you look at it with your own mind and eyes and see whether or not you think there’s any truth in it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

By "Divine Educators", are you perhaps referring to the human written scriptures?
Because as said, humans with a fallible, finite mind have written those scriptures

So really, you're looking towards the ramblings of other fallible finite minds and you're just calling them "Divine Educators".

And all that, off course, are just your fallible beliefs and opinions.

The only thing I think you can do is read what They say and study Their lives for yourself and decide for yourself.

 

[loverofhumanity]

They are? So how do you differentiate them?
Please provide evidence that both exist independently from one another.
And actually "exist"-exist; not just in some conceptual, virtual, philosophical idea.



And your evidence for these wild, wild claims is.....?

Well when you’re asleep and you’re not making any conscious effort to do anything how is it you can travel and speak and all sorts of things without your body participating?

You might laugh but there is something else in us apart from the body and it becomes active when we’re asleep. For you it may not be proof but there’s something more to it than just a rewinding of events already taken place.

Another thing. When ‘we’ consult ‘ourselves’ there is a questioner and an answered.

“It is an axiomatic fact that while you meditate you are speaking with your own spirit. In that state of mind you put certain questions to your spirit and the spirit answers: the light breaks forth and the reality is revealed.”

‘Abdu’l-Bahá

 

[loverofhumanity]

Except for telling real "Divine Educators" from false ones, right? That's what you said before, isn't it?

It’s like trying to tell the difference between clear and bitter water. Only tasting it reveals which is pure and which is bitter.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It’s like trying to tell the difference between clear and bitter water. Only tasting it reveals which is pure and which is bitter.

I've tasted it; it's bitter. And others who have also tasted the water say that water you've rejected as bitter is just fine.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You seem to be changing your position.

Earlier, you said "the mind can err but the soul is able to recognise God as it was created for that purpose." IOW, the soul - e.g. my soul - can't err in recognizing God... right?



Going by what you've said, I can. If the soul really, truly can recognize God without fail, then I can be satisfied that the fact I've never recognized God means that God wasn't there for me to recognize him.

OTOH, if you think that the judgement of our souls can sometimes be wrong, it's unclear why you would assume that your own soul's judgement must be right.

The soul if turned towards earthly things will only be informed of them. It depends where the soul is turned.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The soul if turned towards earthly things will only be informed of them. It depends where the soul is turned.

You seem determined to be evasive.

So how does one know "where the soul us turned?"

 

[loverofhumanity]

I've tasted it; it's bitter. And others who have also tasted the water say that water you've rejected as bitter is just fine.

If you’re happy with what you’ve found then just stick with it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you’re happy with what you’ve found then just stick with it.

For me, this conversation isn't about what path I should choose for myself; it's about how much respect I should give to your choice.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You seem determined to be evasive.

So how does one know "where the soul us turned?"

You’re the master of your own destiny. You decide what you want to accept or reject. You choose to reject what I believe in then so be it just stay with what you believe in until you decide otherwise. It’s your life the choices are all yours to make.

 

[loverofhumanity]

For me, this conversation isn't about what path I should choose for myself; it's about how much respect I should give to your choice.

Ok then you should only give it the respect you feel it deserves. But I can’t honestly expect you to respect something you don’t believe in.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ok then you should only give it the respect you feel it deserves. But I can’t honestly expect you to respect something you don’t believe in.

I could give your beliefs a measure of respect if I thought they were arrived at reasonably, even if I didn't accept them myself. So far, what you've provided hasn't let me do this.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You seem determined to be evasive.

So how does one know "where the soul us turned?"

Evasiveness is not my intention. If you want to discuss anything that’s fine but where we disagree i have to respect you and not insist on pushing my views once you have made a decision about them.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I could give your beliefs a measure of respect if I thought they were arrived at reasonably, even if I didn't accept them myself. So far, what you've provided hasn't let me do this.

Sure that’s fine. With the mystical things it’s a lot harder to prove or disprove because they are so subjective and we all have different experiences. How can I explain something in words which is essentially unexplainable?

Tye bottom line is that religion is a mystical experience.

“the core of religious faith is that mystical feeling which unites man with God. This state of spiritual communion can be brought about and maintained by means of meditation and prayer”

Lights of Guidance

 

[loverofhumanity]

I could give your beliefs a measure of respect if I thought they were arrived at reasonably, even if I didn't accept them myself. So far, what you've provided hasn't let me do this.

Much appreciated but not necessary. For me it’s more about accepting you unconditionally as an equal no matter what you believe.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sure that’s fine. With the mystical things it’s a lot harder to prove or disprove because they are so subjective and we all have different experiences. How can I explain something in words which is essentially unexplainable?

It didn't seem like it was that unexplainable when you were explaining it. I note that you've only taken this tack now that it's become clear that your explanation failed to convince.

 

[lukethethird]

Where is the proof ?
Last time I checked it was in the pudding.