religiosity and/or strength of religious belief is associated with less intelligence

[ecco]

On one of them, it was the strangest thing, my body moved slowly toward the ceiling for several feet and then my body rotated and I was looking down on myself. I never realized how handsome I really was. I could now see why the women always flocked to me. I could see the lovely nurse staring longingly at me. I felt my body descending into to standing position behind her, I slowly...

And if you wrote that as your NDE, i would feel it was BS, just because of the WAY its written.

Really! It's very astute of you to see that something that is clearly meant to be ridiculous, is in fact ridiculous

And you just refuse to understand theres millions of them and i have a few of my own, which are authentic, but only i know that.

Anecdotal evidence is worth as much as free advice.

Yes! They did publish papers, i gave those in a prior link.

No! You did not link to any independent double-blind studies.

But, you just want better then that, but due to the nature of the experience it cannot be fully studied as they want, perhaps in the future they can figure out more ways to study it further.

I don't "want better" than an independent double-blind study.

Also, there is no need to wait for the future. Anyone with any knowledge of double-blind studies and NDE/OBE can develop a study.

But, in my view, remote viewing, astral projection and NDEs have been studied enough for me to conclude its real. The evidence just is not enough to your satisfaction however.

Just give me one independent double-blind study.

I had my own, so i know its real, the phenomenon.

And yes, relating NDE stories to alien abduction stories is a red herring. That you dont understand that is amazing.

Just look at the last two quotes. OBE/NDE is real to you because you had your own. Yet you call my comparison to Alien Abductions a red herring. Do you not realize that people who believe in alien encounters do so for the same reason as you: They believe they had an encounter with aliens.

 

[ecco]

The only controlled study that did this was the shelf one and the literature review says thus on it, "Data was collected from 15 hospitals in the UK, USA and Austria over a four-year period.

Do you have a link to this study? If you posted one, I didn't see it.

Thanks

 

[charlie sc]

Do you have a link to this study? If you posted one, I didn't see it.

Thanks

It was the one you mentioned here, but this is an article that talks about it. The literature review link I gave also talks about it.

https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/aware-results-finally-published-no-evidence-of-nde/
AWARE Results Finally Published – No Evidence of NDE
Conclusion

This is the study https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0300957214007394

 

[ecco]

It was the one you mentioned here, but this is an article that talks about it. The literature review link I gave also talks about it.


This is the study https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0300957214007394

AWAreness during REsuscitation
Conclusions
CA survivors commonly experience a broad range of cognitive themes, with 2% exhibiting full awareness. This supports other recent studies that have indicated consciousness may be present despite clinically undetectable consciousness. This together with fearful experiences may contribute to PTSD and other cognitive deficits post CA.
​

This study was not a double-blind study to test for OBE or NDE.
This study was not a study to test for OBE or NDE.
This study did not test for OBE or NDE.

 

[charlie sc]

This study was not a study to test for OBE or NDE.
This study did not test for OBE or NDE.

Did you only read the abstract?

 

[ecco]

Did you only read the abstract?

That's where the link took me.

Doesn't an abstract represent what is in the full paper?

 

[charlie sc]

That's where the link took me.

Doesn't an abstract represent what is in the full paper?

It summarises, but no, not always. The abstract didn't say what their aims were and how it failed. I'll copy/paste some here from the paper.

This was the studies aims, "While NDE have been reported by 10% of CA survivors,3 the overall broader cognitive/mental experiences associated with CA, as well as awareness, and the association between actual CA events and auditory/visual recollection of events has not been studied. The primary aim of this study was to examine the incidence of awareness and the broad range of mental experiences during resuscitation. The secondary aim was to investigate the feasibility of establishing a novel methodology to test the accuracy of reports of visual and auditory perception and awareness during CA."

This is how they did part of it, "To assess the accuracy of claims of visual awareness (VA) during CA, each hospital installed between 50 and 100 shelves in areas where CA resuscitation was deemed likely to occur (e.g. emergency department, acute medical wards). Each shelf contained one image only visible from above the shelf(these were different and included a combination of nationalistic and religious symbols, people, animals, andmajornewspaperheadlines). These images were installed to permit evaluation of VA claims described in prior accounts.4 These include the perception of being able to observe their own CA resuscitation from a vantage point above. It was postulated that should a large proportion of patients describe VA combined with the perception of being able to observe events from a vantage point above, the shelves could be used to potentially test the validity of such claims (as the images were only visible if looking down from the ceiling).1"

They tried to measure OBE, but they prefer to use the term visual awareness(VA) as said in this passage, "Although, similar experiences have been categorized using the scientifically undefined and imprecise term of out of body experiences (OBE’s), and further categorized as autoscopy and optical illusions,30–32 our study suggests that VA and veridical 1804 S. Parnia et al. / Resuscitation 85 (2014) 1799–1805 perception during CA are dissimilar to autoscopy since patients did not describe seeing their own double."

From the results, some patients did perceive, maybe something in the room like the resuscitation team doing something, but that just means the person may be conscious or aware in some way. None the participants spoke about any of the hundreds of images hidden on shelves all around the hospital. Therefore, they didn't talk much about it in the discussion, which they should have. It seems like this article wanted to try prove verdical awareness but they were unable to do that.

 

[ecco]

From the results, some patients did perceive, maybe something in the room like the resuscitation team doing something, but that just means the person may be conscious or aware in some way. None the participants spoke about any of the hundreds of images hidden on shelves all around the hospital. Therefore, they didn't talk much about it in the discussion, which they should have. It seems like this article wanted to try prove verdical awareness but they were unable to do that.

Your summary pretty much corresponds to what I got out of reading the abstract: No evidence to support OBE/NDE.

 

[charlie sc]

Your summary pretty much corresponds to what I got out of reading the abstract: No evidence to support OBE/NDE.

Yes, I agree. I was responding to the quote bellow.

This study was not a study to test for OBE or NDE.
This study did not test for OBE or NDE.

 

[Jollybear]

They may be the same thing. However, this is not saying it's not authentic. This would be like saying a dream is not authentic, but dreams are authentic dreams. What we want to know is if it actually reflects reality outside this vision.

Ok, i see.

Yes, it's true that biases are difficult to combat. However, scientists all over the world have an opportunity to study NDE with OBE, not just sceptics of souls/energy/stuff. The only controlled study that did this was the shelf one and the literature review says thus on it, "Data was collected from 15 hospitals in the UK, USA and Austria over a four-year period. A total of 2060 cases were included, of which only 330 patients actually survived to be discharged. Of these, 140 were found eligible for interviews but only 101 could actually be interviewed. Only 55 had memories or awareness of the resuscitation of which only nine had Craffert 4 experiences compatible with NDEs and only two had specific auditory or visual awareness. Only one of them could describe his perceptions during the resuscitation. The non-NDE persons reported themes such as fear, animals and plants, seeing their family and bright lights," and then, "On the other hand, many prospective studies in hospitals with cardiac wards where it is to be expected that people might experience NDEs have been conducted. In the study mentioned at the beginning of this article, between 50 and 100 shelves with images visible only from above the shelves were installed in acute medical wards in each of the 15 hospitals. More than 1 000 target images were displayed in these hospitals but over a period of four years not a single identification took place (see Parnia, et al. 2014:6). The same zero result characterises all other known studies with hidden targets (see Trent-von Haesler and Beauregard 2013:199). The remark by Ring a NDE sympathiser says it all: “but isn’t it true that in all this time, there hasn’t been a single case of a veridical perception reported by an NDEr under controlled conditions? I mean, thirty years later, it’s still a null case” (in Holden 2009:loc 2970). The problem with these studies, as Blackmore pointed out more than a decade ago, is that there “are many claims from case studies that people can really see at a distance during OBEs but the experimental evidence does not substantiate them” (2005:191)."

So I don't know how you can assume OBE with NDE reflect reality when the studies don't suggest it, nor can I be intellectually honest and do the same. Out of 330 patients that survived, only 9 had NDE experiences and no one could describe one image out of the 50-100 images.
This does not describe, to me, a normal part of reality. If OBE with NDE was actually describing reality it wouldn't be so difficult. It would be easy peasy. Everyone with an OBE in NDE would describe these pictures in detail. This is not me saying it doesn't exist, but it lacks evidence.

I already responded to eco about that, i dont know if you saw that response, but in anycase, ill respond to it again.

There is a problem with this study.

1, it only studied cardiac arrest patients.

2, some of those patients wer to ill for interviews.

3, some of those patients could have had OBEs, but forgot. Sam pernia even said drugs are given to patients that cause them to forget things.

4, all these images on shelves, no one having an OBE even knows there "suppose to" look at the targets. Furthermore, even if they did know, being ill and out of body, there gonna have other things on there mind then a target image on a shelf.

5, if the target is about testing veridical perception, and no conspiracy from doctors to tell patients what the targets wer has to be trusted, then why not in the same sense trust there is no conspiracy between doctor and patient when OTHER veridical perceptions occur in or outside the operating room?

Ok, I have a question I'd like you to answer. I'll answer it myself first. Do you think it's possible OBE in NDE is the soul leaving the body?

Yes, it's possible

Now you. Do you think it's possible that no soul leaves the body during OBE in NDE?
Please either say yes or no. Please don't go on a tangent and refute what you just said.

Is it possible the soul does not leave the body? As in is it possible i am wrong? Yes, BUT unlikely. If yes, this would mean for me alot of COINCIDENCES are ocuring. Too specific on top of it. And this would include my own experiences.

Yes, it doesn't mean it was lies or false, etc. It does mean there's a conflict of interest in this case. So, there's that to keep in mind. This is why, for instance, in trials if a juror knows the person they're asked to leave or if the detective knows the person, they may be assigned to another case.
It's to reduce bias, which may be an influencing factor.

Ok, i see. But, bias and dishonest are not the same thing. Sometimes it seams people mudy them together, but they are not the same. Bias is leaning in a particular direction. Dishonest is, well, flat out making something up they know is false.

 

[Jollybear]

Yes, it is simple. The patient was in the room, so the patient probably knows something about what is in said room.
Why complicate it and make stuff up?

Why complicate it? Because IT IS complicated and not simple as you suppose. And im not making stuff up, im merely going by the merade of testimonials. Your the one making stuff up by implying there lying.

Okay so my grandmother had a stroke that resulted in damage to her brain. Damage that was visible on various different types of brain scans.
Her personality accordingly changed. She also began to have auditory and visual hallucinations, also in accordance with damage to particular brain areas responsible for interpreting auditory and visual input.

But you want me to believe the two things aren't really connected? And you want me to believe my grandmother's original consciousness and original personality were still inside her somewhere? Seriously?

Yes, SERIOUSLY. Thats right. Thats exactly what i want you to believe. Join me and lets take on the other atheists now. Deal?

 

[Jollybear]

Really! It's very astute of you to see that something that is clearly meant to be ridiculous, is in fact ridiculous

Im glad you think im astute. I agree, im a freakin genious.

Anecdotal evidence is worth as much as free advice.

And free advice can be very good depending on who it comes from and depending on what the advice refers too.

But hey, again, the NDE is in the millions. The OBE in additional millions. Veridical perceptions adds more to the millions.

No! You did not link to any independent double-blind studies.

Yes i did in the link and weve been going over some of those papers. Follow along, pay attention.

I don't "want better" than an independent double-blind study.

Describe for me independent double blind study? What would that look like for OBE or NDE?

Also, there is no need to wait for the future. Anyone with any knowledge of double-blind studies and NDE/OBE can develop a study.

They can and they have.

Just give me one independent double-blind study.

Just look at the last two quotes. OBE/NDE is real to you because you had your own. Yet you call my comparison to Alien Abductions a red herring. Do you not realize that people who believe in alien encounters do so for the same reason as you: They believe they had an encounter with aliens.

Yes they do, and theres probably millions of those too. And my mom saw a UFO, up very close, the traingle one. I believe aliens are real. But, AGAIN, its a red herring. Your comparing apples to oranges.

 

[charlie sc]

I already responded to eco about that, i dont know if you saw that response, but in anycase, ill respond to it again.

There is a problem with this study.

1, it only studied cardiac arrest patients.

2, some of those patients wer to ill for interviews.

3, some of those patients could have had OBEs, but forgot. Sam pernia even said drugs are given to patients that cause them to forget things.

4, all these images on shelves, no one having an OBE even knows there "suppose to" look at the targets. Furthermore, even if they did know, being ill and out of body, there gonna have other things on there mind then a target image on a shelf.

5, if the target is about testing veridical perception, and no conspiracy from doctors to tell patients what the targets wer has to be trusted, then why not in the same sense trust there is no conspiracy between doctor and patient when OTHER veridical perceptions occur in or outside the operating room?

Very good criticism. This is what I like to see. Except 4: If, for instance, if the shoe case is legitimate, then patients will notice all sorts of things, including shoes on weirdly placed parts of the building lol. So it's logical to assume they'd notice out of place stuff if stories like these are legitimate.

Is it possible the soul does not leave the body? As in is it possible i am wrong? Yes, BUT unlikely. If yes, this would mean for me alot of COINCIDENCES are ocuring. Too specific on top of it. And this would include my own experiences.

Ok lol, but you basically did the thing I asked you not to. Doesn't matter

Ok, i see. But, bias and dishonest are not the same thing. Sometimes it seams people mudy them together, but they are not the same. Bias is leaning in a particular direction. Dishonest is, well, flat out making something up they know is false.

Yes, but someone who is biased may become dishonest or choose one side, sometimes without them realising. For instance, if your friend/family was on trial, you may make judgements based on your prior knowledge and emotions, not the evidence at hand. I know I would. This is also why empirical studies try reduce as much bias as possible, because it changes the outcome.

If you don't mind I'd like to answer one more question and then we can check out your paper
Here goes.

This is your line of thinking(reversed from mine) concerning souls and OBE

She didn't know, but the person that went to get it either planted it or just got it from wherever(if she was alone)
She saw it one time or another while passing it inside
She didn't know but someone suggested it to her(you'll see this type of suggestion in police interviews)
She conspired with someone to put it there
She had an outer body experience

Yes, i take it as the opposite likelyhood.

So, I surmised here that you believe souls are real and you will think first and foremost as the most logical reason for any OBE or NDE experience.

Here is a video of a voodoo priest summoning spirits(souls) to heal people. Since souls are a real thing, do you think this is actually going on or do you doubt it?
If you doubt souls are being summoned, why would you question this but not stories of people's souls leaving their body?

You don't need to watch the whole thing, just skip to parts that seem interesting.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Im glad you think im astute. I agree, im a freakin genious.



And free advice can be very good depending on who it comes from and depending on what the advice refers too.

But hey, again, the NDE is in the millions. The OBE in additional millions. Veridical perceptions adds more to the millions.



Yes i did in the link and weve been going over some of those papers. Follow along, pay attention.



Describe for me independent double blind study? What would that look like for OBE or NDE?



They can and they have.



Yes they do, and theres probably millions of those too. And my mom saw a UFO, up very close, the traingle one. I believe aliens are real. But, AGAIN, its a red herring. Your comparing apples to oranges.

please link a double blind study of Near Death Experiences. I did not think that was possible.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Why complicate it? Because IT IS complicated and not simple as you suppose. And im not making stuff up, im merely going by the merade of testimonials. Your the one making stuff up by implying there lying.

The simplest explanation, that requires the least amount of assumptions, is usually the correct one. (Occam's Razor.) My explanation makes perfect sense. A person that is in a room, is going to know something about the room they're in. That's perfectly normal, and it's the obvious explanation.

You want to complicate this by adding all kinds of other things to it, which require even more explanation(s).

I haven't implied at all that anyone is lying. I think people are sincere in their reports of such incidences, just as people are sincere in their reports of alien abductions and yeti sightings.

Yes, SERIOUSLY. Thats right. Thats exactly what i want you to believe. Join me and lets take on the other atheists now. Deal?

Sorry, I don't believe things that don't make sense. I also don't believe things completely lacking in evidence, especially when the explanation is obvious. Again, you want to add all kinds of other things to this simple thing to make it more complicated and requires even further explanation and defies rationality.

My grandmother's brain was damaged, and her personality changed accordingly.
The changes we saw were the changes we (i.e. doctors) expected to see, based on the areas where the brain damage occurred.
You want me to ignore this obvious connection and instead believe that the two things are not connected, and that her consciousness actually exists somewhere outside of her? Why on earth why I do that, and based on what evidence??

 

[ecco]

And free advice can be very good depending on who it comes from and depending on what the advice refers too.

I'll refrain from commenting.

But hey, again, the NDE is in the millions. The OBE in additional millions. Veridical perceptions adds more to the millions.

The following article references the AWARE study mentioned in previous posts. (my emphasis)

Out-of-body experiences: Neuroscience or the paranormal?
Some of these stories are intriguing and compelling. But at this stage, they are nothing more than unverifiable stories.

A study from 2014, titled Awareness during Resuscitation (AWARE), was the first serious large-scale investigation to look at NDEs. The study addressed the possibility of veridical perception during OBEs.

The research involved multiple hospitals and hundreds of interviews with cardiac arrest survivors. To investigate whether any individuals had genuinely floated above themselves and viewed their surroundings, researchers placed pictures on shelves that would only be viewable from above. In this way, they could test whether people experiencing OBEs really could leave their bodies.

Although there were only two veridical OBEs during the study, neither could accurately relate the images from the shelves.​

Yes i did in the link and weve been going over some of those papers. Follow along, pay attention.

If you are talking about the AWARE study, I did address it. If you are referring to something else, please repost the link.

Describe for me independent double blind study? What would that look like for OBE or NDE?

You obviously know of some based on your comments below.

They can and they have.

Then you should be able to link these double-blind studies and we can both determine if they support OBE/DNE. The AWARE study did not.

Yes they do, and theres probably millions of those too. And my mom saw a UFO, up very close, the traingle one. I believe aliens are real. But, AGAIN, its a red herring. Your comparing apples to oranges.

No, it is not a red herring. Being carted off into a spaceship to be studied by aliens is probably caused by the same or similar brain malfunctions that cause OBEs.

Further evidence can be found in the fact that many people who believe in OBE/NDE also believe in aliens.

 

[Jollybear]

Very good criticism. This is what I like to see. Except 4: If, for instance, if the shoe case is legitimate, then patients will notice all sorts of things, including shoes on weirdly placed parts of the building lol. So it's logical to assume they'd notice out of place stuff if stories like these are legitimate.

No, im gonna press number 4 because note again, here is a quote from IANDS

"Of the 2,060 cardiac arrests during the study, 140 patients survived and could be interviewed for the study. Of these, 101 patients had detailed interviews, which identified 9 patients who had an NDE. Of the 9 NDErs, two had detailed memories with awareness of the physical environment. One NDEr's experience was verified as accurate; the other was too ill for an in-depth interview. These two NDEs occurred in non-acute areas where no visual target was present, so further verification of visual awareness was not possible. Further study and, perhaps, a reassessment of the methodology and goals of the study are warranted."

Ok lol, but you basically did the thing I asked you not to. Doesn't matter

Im sorry, i feel if i didnt say "but" id be betraying my mind, lol.

Yes, but someone who is biased may become dishonest or choose one side, sometimes without them realising. For instance, if your friend/family was on trial, you may make judgements based on your prior knowledge and emotions, not the evidence at hand. I know I would. This is also why empirical studies try reduce as much bias as possible, because it changes the outcome.

True, however if my family or friends wer on trial i would not be biased, id send them straight to jail if the evidence was there, lol. However, if it was my wife, i would not be able to do it.

If you don't mind I'd like to answer one more question and then we can check out your paper
Here goes.

This is your line of thinking(reversed from mine) concerning souls and OBE

So, I surmised here that you believe souls are real and you will think first and foremost as the most logical reason for any OBE or NDE experience.

Here is a video of a voodoo priest summoning spirits(souls) to heal people. Since souls are a real thing, do you think this is actually going on or do you doubt it?
If you doubt souls are being summoned, why would you question this but not stories of people's souls leaving their body?

Thats a good question and i have an answer.

Just as having an OBE, whether spontanious or at will via meditation (astral projection) is a DIFFICULT and rare thing, so too would a spirit from tge spirit realm be a rare or dificult thing for it to menefist itself over in our realm.

So, the pathway for our spirit to "project" to the spirit world is hard, so too the path for the spirit to project to our realm is hard.

So, do i believe a spirit can be summoned, yes, but is it easy? No easyer then it is for a astral projector to have a OBE. But, can it happen? Yes, just as much of a yes as an OBE can happen.

You don't need to watch the whole thing, just skip to parts that seem interesting.

I did.

 

[Jollybear]

The simplest explanation, that requires the least amount of assumptions, is usually the correct one.

Not in this case its not correct.

(Occam's Razor.) My explanation makes perfect sense.

Not to me it dont make sense, let alone perfect sense.

A person that is in a room, is going to know something about the room they're in. That's perfectly normal, and it's the obvious explanation.

No its not obvious because there reporting things they say they never saw while in body. Even things outside the room in cases. There body is unconcious.

You want to complicate this by adding all kinds of other things to it, which require even more explanation(s).

And more explanations are warrented bexause its complicated unlike how you want it to be.

I haven't implied at all that anyone is lying.

Yes.....you.....are. knowingly or not, you are.

I think people are sincere in their reports of such incidences, just as people are sincere in their reports of alien abductions and yeti sightings.

Well if there sincere, then there reports are complicated and the issue is not simple then, you see?

Sorry, I don't believe things that don't make sense. I also don't believe things completely lacking in evidence, especially when the explanation is obvious. Again, you want to add all kinds of other things to this simple thing to make it more complicated and requires even further explanation and defies rationality.

I think you brain wash yourself man.

My grandmother's brain was damaged, and her personality changed accordingly.
The changes we saw were the changes we (i.e. doctors) expected to see, based on the areas where the brain damage occurred.
You want me to ignore this obvious connection and instead believe that the two things are not connected, and that her consciousness actually exists somewhere outside of her? Why on earth why I do that, and based on what evidence?

Brain washed you are.

 

[Jollybear]

I'll refrain from commenting.

Because you cant comment, your stumped. I can do cartweels around debating you.

I should make a thread, pretending to believe as you do and debate it just to teach you HOW proper debate is done. Why? Just because your so bad at it.

The following article references the AWARE study mentioned in previous posts. (my emphasis)

Out-of-body experiences: Neuroscience or the paranormal?
Some of these stories are intriguing and compelling. But at this stage, they are nothing more than unverifiable stories.

A study from 2014, titled Awareness during Resuscitation (AWARE), was the first serious large-scale investigation to look at NDEs. The study addressed the possibility of veridical perception during OBEs.

The research involved multiple hospitals and hundreds of interviews with cardiac arrest survivors. To investigate whether any individuals had genuinely floated above themselves and viewed their surroundings, researchers placed pictures on shelves that would only be viewable from above. In this way, they could test whether people experiencing OBEs really could leave their bodies.

Although there were only two veridical OBEs during the study, neither could accurately relate the images from the shelves.​

If you are talking about the AWARE study, I did address it. If you are referring to something else, please repost the link.

And i gave a rebuttal to you on your point with the aware study and you said you didnt read it. Oh well, you shot yourself in the foot.

"Of the 2,060 cardiac arrests during the study, 140 patients survived and could be interviewed for the study. Of these, 101 patients had detailed interviews, which identified 9 patients who had an NDE. Of the 9 NDErs, two had detailed memories with awareness of the physical environment. One NDEr's experience was verified as accurate; the other was too ill for an in-depth interview. These two NDEs occurred in non-acute areas where no visual target was present, so further verification of visual awareness was not possible. Further study and, perhaps, a reassessment of the methodology and goals of the study are warranted."

You obviously know of some based on your comments below.

Then you should be able to link these double-blind studies and we can both determine if they support OBE/DNE. The AWARE study did not.

The aware study DID have a veridical perciever, just not to the target image.

Thus, you are a scedoskeptic.

No, it is not a red herring. Being carted off into a spaceship to be studied by aliens is probably caused by the same or similar brain malfunctions that cause OBEs.

Mayby, mayby not. My mom when she saw the UFO she was awake for it, her body was not unconcious. So, it dont look like its similar. But whether it is or not, saying it is, is not making a case AGAINST NDEs or OBEs.

Your a TERRIBLE debater. Your posts are well structured and spelled, but when it comes to intelligent substance to them, your posts are bankrupt.

Further evidence can be found in the fact that many people who believe in OBE/NDE also believe in aliens.

Mayby, mayby not, i havent looked at statistics on that, but nor am i interested in it. Even if your right, who cares either way? It dont help your case against NDEs.

Keep shooting yourself in the foot. To an objective observer to this thread, ypul only make yourself look bad by arguing the way you do.

Charlie is doing a better job then all of you, even though i heartily disagree with him.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Not in this case its not correct.

So you say. What reason(s) do we have to believe that the simplest, most obvious conclusion is NOT the correct one?

Not to me it dont make sense, let alone perfect sense.

Not to be rude, but your inability to see any other possibilities, including the most obvious one, doesn't make your claims come true.

No its not obvious because there reporting things they say they never saw while in body. Even things outside the room in cases. There body is unconcious.

Except that they didn’t see anything they didn’t see “while in body.” Furthermore, you have no evidence to confirm that they ever left their body at all, or that it’s even possible to leave one’s body.

And more explanations are warrented bexause its complicated unlike how you want it to be.

But you are needlessly complicating it, when the obvious answer is staring you in the face. Furthermore, your complications don’t add any explanatory power because you’re invoking what you perceive to be a mystery, with an even bigger mystery (i.e. “God did it”).

Yes.....you.....are. knowingly or not, you are.

Nope.

People are mistaken about things all the time. That doesn’t make them liars. And people attribute causes to things without justification all the time. They don’t do this knowingly, it’s just part of our human nature sometimes.

Well if there sincere, then there reports are complicated and the issue is not simple then, you see?

I don’t believe people are abducted by aliens on a regular basis either, just because people say they have. Do you?

I think you brain wash yourself man.

You think I brainwash myself by not accepting things that are lacking in evidence?

And that makes sense … how?

Brain washed you are.

That’s a silly answer. How about addressing what I said instead of brushing it off?