religiosity and/or strength of religious belief is associated with less intelligence

[ecco]

Because you cant comment, your stumped. I can do cartweels around debating you.

I should make a thread, pretending to believe as you do and debate it just to teach you HOW proper debate is done. Why? Just because your so bad at it.



And i gave a rebuttal to you on your point with the aware study and you said you didnt read it. Oh well, you shot yourself in the foot.

"Of the 2,060 cardiac arrests during the study, 140 patients survived and could be interviewed for the study. Of these, 101 patients had detailed interviews, which identified 9 patients who had an NDE. Of the 9 NDErs, two had detailed memories with awareness of the physical environment. One NDEr's experience was verified as accurate; the other was too ill for an in-depth interview. These two NDEs occurred in non-acute areas where no visual target was present, so further verification of visual awareness was not possible. Further study and, perhaps, a reassessment of the methodology and goals of the study are warranted."



The aware study DID have a veridical perciever, just not to the target image.

Thus, you are a scedoskeptic.



Mayby, mayby not. My mom when she saw the UFO she was awake for it, her body was not unconcious. So, it dont look like its similar. But whether it is or not, saying it is, is not making a case AGAINST NDEs or OBEs.

Your a TERRIBLE debater. Your posts are well structured and spelled, but when it comes to intelligent substance to them, your posts are bankrupt.



Mayby, mayby not, i havent looked at statistics on that, but nor am i interested in it. Even if your right, who cares either way? It dont help your case against NDEs.

Keep shooting yourself in the foot. To an objective observer to this thread, ypul only make yourself look bad by arguing the way you do.

Charlie is doing a better job then all of you, even though i heartily disagree with him.

Wow, what a rant. Take a chill pill.

But, anyway, thanks for confirming that belief in supernatural woo may be genetically driven.

 

[Jollybear]

Wow, what a rant. Take a chill pill.

Its the truth.

But, anyway, thanks for confirming that belief in supernatural woo may be genetically driven.

Its not, ive given you logical points to consider. Ive also had my own experiences.

But hey, thanks for confirming that belief in everything has a natural cause boo may be genetically driven.

 

[Jollybear]

So you say. What reason(s) do we have to believe that the simplest, most obvious conclusion is NOT the correct one?

So YOU say. The simplest and obvious reason IS NOT as simple an obvious as you say. If it wer, everyone would believe as you do, and thats not the case now, is it?

Not to be rude, but your inability to see any other possibilities, including the most obvious one, doesn't make your claims come true.

Wrong, i do have the ability to hear that posibility, but due to the fact many people are testifying to veridical perceptions while the brain is unxoncious, including perceptions outside the operating rooms, leads me to conclude oposite to you.

And, ahem, ive also had my own experiences, so i pretty much KNOW.

Except that they didn’t see anything they didn’t see “while in body.”

Thats false, that goes against there testimonies. But to be fair to your statement, at best, your assuming they saw it while concious. That is a assumption. And not one that i will hold too due to the 600 NDEs i have read and marades ive listened to on youtube, including the best ones, the veridical type.

Furthermore, you have no evidence to confirm that they ever left their body at all, or that it’s even possible to leave one’s body.

So, there lying?

But you are needlessly complicating it, when the obvious answer is staring you in the face. Furthermore, your complications don’t add any explanatory power because you’re invoking what you perceive to be a mystery, with an even bigger mystery (i.e. “God did it”).

See, this tells me your not very smart. "God did it" isnt even part of the discussion. No, near death, plus, the reality of a soul, THAT DID IT. And just because some things are mysteries, which theres lots more then just a soul, dont mean we should explain away said mysteries by saying "materialism and chance did it".

Nope.

YEP.

People are mistaken about things all the time. That doesn’t make them liars.

Ok, well your a "people" and so your "mistaken" then about NDEs. That dont make you a lier.

And people attribute causes to things without justification all the time.

Such as YOU. You atribute the cause of the veridical NDE to hulucination+chance+wrong memories (aks, naturalistic materialism). You do this WITHOUT justification as well.

They don’t do this knowingly, it’s just part of our human nature sometimes.

Yea, ok, your not doing this knowingly, its just part of your human nature to chock it up to materialism.

I don’t believe people are abducted by aliens on a regular basis either, just because people say they have. Do you?

Yes i do believe it. I dont believe there lying. Now, that dont mean SOME are not lying. Some probably are lying. But i think alot of them are true, yes. My mom seen a UFO up close. If she had not run away, perhaps she would have gotten ubducted because she said the ship was hovering closer to her. Thats when she got afraid and ran.

You think I brainwash myself by not accepting things that are lacking in evidence?

Yes, because there is evidence. Therefore yes, you do brainwash yourself with your stupid materialistic philosophy.

And that makes sense … how?

Because there is evidence.

That’s a silly answer. How about addressing what I said instead of brushing it off?

Your completely brainwashed. Trying to save you is like trying to save someone who already jumped over the cliff.

 

[charlie sc]

No, im gonna press number 4 because note again, here is a quote from IANDS

"Of the 2,060 cardiac arrests during the study, 140 patients survived and could be interviewed for the study. Of these, 101 patients had detailed interviews, which identified 9 patients who had an NDE. Of the 9 NDErs, two had detailed memories with awareness of the physical environment. One NDEr's experience was verified as accurate; the other was too ill for an in-depth interview. These two NDEs occurred in non-acute areas where no visual target was present, so further verification of visual awareness was not possible. Further study and, perhaps, a reassessment of the methodology and goals of the study are warranted."




Im sorry, i feel if i didnt say "but" id be betraying my mind, lol.



True, however if my family or friends wer on trial i would not be biased, id send them straight to jail if the evidence was there, lol. However, if it was my wife, i would not be able to do it.



Thats a good question and i have an answer.

Just as having an OBE, whether spontanious or at will via meditation (astral projection) is a DIFFICULT and rare thing, so too would a spirit from tge spirit realm be a rare or dificult thing for it to menefist itself over in our realm.

So, the pathway for our spirit to "project" to the spirit world is hard, so too the path for the spirit to project to our realm is hard.

So, do i believe a spirit can be summoned, yes, but is it easy? No easyer then it is for a astral projector to have a OBE. But, can it happen? Yes, just as much of a yes as an OBE can happen.



I did.

Thank you for the discussion but I think we've hit an impasse. I think it would be pointless for me to examine more testimony without experimentation. We both think differently and have different world-views. I consider souls/supernatural claims, etc, not the norm, therefore, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. However, you don't think like this. For you, the supernatural is norm, therefore, it does not require experimentation, because you think it's already substantiated. The best we can do is realise our differences and agree to disagree. I have definitely learnt quite a few things during our discussion so I thank you for that.

Peace

 

[ecco]

Its the truth. Ive also had my own experiences.

What's the truth...
That your mom was awake when she saw a UFO?
The you had an OBE?

Wonderful.

But hey, thanks for confirming that belief in everything has a natural cause boo may be genetically driven.

What?

 

[Jollybear]

Thank you for the discussion but I think we've hit an impasse. I think it would be pointless for me to examine more testimony without experimentation. We both think differently and have different world-views. I consider souls/supernatural claims, etc, not the norm, therefore, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. However, you don't think like this. For you, the supernatural is norm, therefore, it does not require experimentation, because you think it's already substantiated. The best we can do is realise our differences and agree to disagree. I have definitely learnt quite a few things during our discussion so I thank you for that.

Peace

Oh no, im not against experimentation. But, the experimentation that was done had problems, which i pointed those out.

 

[Jollybear]

What's the truth...
That your mom was awake when she saw a UFO?
The you had an OBE?

Wonderful.

Are we lying? Me and my mom.

What?

Thats hard to understand?

 

[charlie sc]

Oh no, im not against experimentation. But, the experimentation that was done had problems, which i pointed those out.

Well, the null hypothesis has not been rejected yet, and perhaps never will, for this topic.

 

[ecco]

Are we lying? Me and my mom.

No, people "see" things all the time. Thousands of people have reported seeing UFOs. None -not one- has ever been confirmed. Have you noticed that the "sightings" have gone down now that everyone has cell phone cameras with them all the time? All we get now are videos that are easily identified as meteors.

As far as NDEs and light at the end of the tunnel stories, ask anyone who has blacked out on a hot day. First, everything gets dark at the periphery of vision. The darkness moves in until all that is left is a small patch of light. Then the person falls to the ground, the blood gets back into the brain and vision is restored. That's not being dead or even near death, it's just a temporary reduction of blood getting to the optic nerves and the brain.

As far as OBEs are concerned, people hallucinate all the time. Like dreams, some seem to be more profound than others. People remember the profound ones.

There is still no supporting evidence from any double-blind studies.

Thats hard to understand?

Yes...

But hey, thanks for confirming that belief in everything has a natural cause boo may be genetically driven.

... is hard to understand. What do you mean when you write "a natural cause boo may be genetically driven"? What's a "boo"? I thought it might have been a typo, but I guess it isn't. I have no idea what you could mean by it.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Why complicate it? Because IT IS complicated and not simple as you suppose. And im not making stuff up, im merely going by the merade of testimonials. Your the one making stuff up by implying there lying.

But it's not complicated. You're just making it that way. That's the point.

Again, I'm not saying nor implying that they are lying. I’ve already clarified that. Why would you try repeating it again?

Wrong, i do have the ability to hear that posibility, but due to the fact many people are testifying to veridical perceptions while the brain is unxoncious, including perceptions outside the operating rooms, leads me to conclude oposite to you.

Many people make many claims about many things. Things aren’t true just because a lot of people believe them.

Your main problem is you don’t have any evidence indicating that consciousness and brains are separate things.

And, ahem, ive also had my own experiences, so i pretty much KNOW.

Personal experiences may be helpful for you, but they help absolutely no one else. I mean, we’re talking about anecdotes here.

I’ve had personal experiences I thought were one thing, that turned out to be something completely different. I’ve also had experiences where I thought, “Hmm, I can see how someone could have interpreted that as a ghost encounter, or an alien abduction,” or whatever. We’re not always right when we try to come up with explanations to explain things we have experienced.

You do not *know* that your soul left your body. Is that your claim? If you did know this, and could demonstrate it, you’d probably be in line for a Nobel Prize.

Thats false, that goes against there testimonies. But to be fair to your statement, at best, your assuming they saw it while concious. That is a assumption. And not one that i will hold too due to the 600 NDEs i have read and marades ive listened to on youtube, including the best ones, the veridical type.

What did they see “out of body” that they didn’t see “in body” and how do you know? Do you not realize that our brains are constantly scanning and taking in our environment in ways that we are not even aware of?

So, there lying?

Like I said, you have no evidence to confirm that they ever left their body at all, of that it’s even possible to leave one’s body. Again, if you can show this, there is a Nobel Prize waiting for you.

See, this tells me your not very smart. "God did it" isnt even part of the discussion. No, near death, plus, the reality of a soul, THAT DID IT. And just because some things are mysteries, which theres lots more then just a soul, dont mean we should explain away said mysteries by saying "materialism and chance did it".

Did you just tell me I’m not very smart? Right, so I’m the stupid one for going with the obvious answer that doesn’t require piling on assumptions, unsubstantiated beliefs, mysterious mechanisms, and the denial of logic?

And if “God did it” is not part of the discussion, what is your point?

YEP.

Nope. And I’ve explained my position on it several times. Including in this post.

Ok, well your a "people" and so your "mistaken" then about NDEs. That dont make you a lier.

Let me know when you can demonstrate that.

Such as YOU. You atribute the cause of the veridical NDE to hulucination+chance+wrong memories (aks, naturalistic materialism). You do this WITHOUT justification as well.

I attribute them to normal brain activity, yes. You’ve not shown otherwise.

I don’t ever need to invoke “naturalistic materialism” when you’ve not made your case for your claim. Especially when you have to ignore logic and obvious mundane explanations in an attempt to do so.

Yea, ok, your not doing this knowingly, its just part of your human nature to chock it up to materialism.

Show some evidence for anything else.

Are you trying to claim supernatural here?

Yes i do believe it. I dont believe there lying. Now, that dont mean SOME are not lying. Some probably are lying. But i think alot of them are true, yes. My mom seen a UFO up close. If she had not run away, perhaps she would have gotten ubducted because she said the ship was hovering closer to her. Thats when she got afraid and ran.

You believe that people are routinely abducted by aliens? Seriously?

Nobody has ever demonstrated the existence of aliens in the first place, but you believe they visit Earth on a regular basis and abduct human beings? Again, this is Nobel Prize stuff.

Let me tell you a story that will better illustrate what I’m trying to say:

I used to try to have quick, late afternoon naps, just to recharge a bit. Often though, when I would try to awaken from these naps, I was in that place where you know you’re sleeping but can’t quite wake yourself up. I’d struggle to find my way to consciousness, making my way through my dream. Then, when I’d get close, I’d hear this loud “whooshing” type of noise and I would feel like I was falling through some kind of air tunnel, and sometimes there would be huge flashing lights swirling around as well. I’d have to go through that for a couple of seconds until I could finally open my eyes and look around, and slowly start moving again. Sometimes, I would sense something sinister in the room with me, but could never quite see anything. It was a frightening experience to me.

My very first thought in trying to figure out what was going on, was that if anyone else had experienced something like this, I could see why they would think they had been abducted by aliens, because it definitely had that feel to it. My mother (who believes we can leave our bodies) suggested I was experiencing OBEs, which seemed to make sense too, given that one of the times, I had felt like I was trying to crawl into my own body.

When I finally got on the internet and started doing some research, I discovered that what I was experiencing was something rather mundane called “sleep paralysis” that many other people also experience. Turns out, I was just waking up while in the middle of REM sleep, so that my brain was awake, but hadn’t had enough time to turn the muscles in my body back on yet . Hence the reason I could never move. I even went on to participate in a sleep paralysis study and thankfully, I do not suffer from this anymore.

Do you see what I mean now what I talk about how people can be mistaken in attributing causes to their experiences, without actually lying about it? Human beings do this all the time, because we want answers, and we’ll take what is available at the time.

Yes, because there is evidence. Therefore yes, you do brainwash yourself with your stupid materialistic philosophy.

Ah, so how does a person brainwash themselves?

What evidence?

Your completely brainwashed. Trying to save you is like trying to save someone who already jumped over the cliff.

So you’ve just repeated the same silly answer. Great.

What is it that you think you’re saving me from? Logic and reason?

 

[SkepticThinker]

No, im gonna press number 4 because note again, here is a quote from IANDS

"Of the 2,060 cardiac arrests during the study, 140 patients survived and could be interviewed for the study. Of these, 101 patients had detailed interviews, which identified 9 patients who had an NDE. Of the 9 NDErs, two had detailed memories with awareness of the physical environment. One NDEr's experience was verified as accurate; the other was too ill for an in-depth interview. These two NDEs occurred in non-acute areas where no visual target was present, so further verification of visual awareness was not possible. Further study and, perhaps, a reassessment of the methodology and goals of the study are warranted."

.

What is it that you think is being said here?

 

[SkepticThinker]

No, im gonna press number 4 because note again, here is a quote from IANDS

"Of the 2,060 cardiac arrests during the study, 140 patients survived and could be interviewed for the study. Of these, 101 patients had detailed interviews, which identified 9 patients who had an NDE. Of the 9 NDErs, two had detailed memories with awareness of the physical environment. One NDEr's experience was verified as accurate; the other was too ill for an in-depth interview. These two NDEs occurred in non-acute areas where no visual target was present, so further verification of visual awareness was not possible. Further study and, perhaps, a reassessment of the methodology and goals of the study are warranted."




Im sorry, i feel if i didnt say "but" id be betraying my mind, lol.



True, however if my family or friends wer on trial i would not be biased, id send them straight to jail if the evidence was there, lol. However, if it was my wife, i would not be able to do it.



Thats a good question and i have an answer.

Just as having an OBE, whether spontanious or at will via meditation (astral projection) is a DIFFICULT and rare thing, so too would a spirit from tge spirit realm be a rare or dificult thing for it to menefist itself over in our realm.

So, the pathway for our spirit to "project" to the spirit world is hard, so too the path for the spirit to project to our realm is hard.

So, do i believe a spirit can be summoned, yes, but is it easy? No easyer then it is for a astral projector to have a OBE. But, can it happen? Yes, just as much of a yes as an OBE can happen.



I did.

How do we know there are spirits and that "the path for the spirit to project to our realm is hard?"

What are those claims based on?

 

[tas8831]

Are we lying? Me and my mom.

Maybe. Delusional or maybe hallucinating is also an option.

 

[Jollybear]

Maybe. Delusional or maybe hallucinating is also an option.

Is it being real an option?

 

[tas8831]

Is it being real an option?

Always an option, but as Sagan wrote, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

[Jollybear]

Always an option, but as Sagan wrote, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

What makes the claim extrordinary?

 

[Jollybear]

But it's not complicated. You're just making it that way. That's the point.

But it is complicated, your just making it simple, thats the point.

Again, I'm not saying nor implying that they are lying. I’ve already clarified that. Why would you try repeating it again?

Then what are you saying? They had false memories?

Many people make many claims about many things. Things aren’t true just because a lot of people believe them.

Thats right, therefore what you believe is not true just because you believe oposite to me.

Your main problem is you don’t have any evidence indicating that consciousness and brains are separate things.

Sure i do. And its been presented.

Personal experiences may be helpful for you, but they help absolutely no one else. I mean, we’re talking about anecdotes here.

Theres nothing wrong with anecdotes.

I’ve had personal experiences I thought were one thing, that turned out to be something completely different. I’ve also had experiences where I thought, “Hmm, I can see how someone could have interpreted that as a ghost encounter, or an alien abduction,” or whatever. We’re not always right when we try to come up with explanations to explain things we have experienced.

Give me examples of those experiences you had.

You do not *know* that your soul left your body. Is that your claim? If you did know this, and could demonstrate it, you’d probably be in line for a Nobel Prize.

I do know, for myself.

How do we know there are spirits and that "the path for the spirit to project to our realm is hard?"

What are those claims based on?

If the path for our spirit to project to the spirit realm is hard, then logically the path for a spirit to project to our realm would be hard too.

What is it that you think is being said here?

Read it and tell me.

 

[SkepticThinker]

What makes the claim extrordinary?

You are claiming that people have souls that can leave their bodies. You are claiming that consciousness exists outside of human brains. All without demonstrating it.

You wouldn't say those are extraordinary claims?

 

[SkepticThinker]

But it is complicated, your just making it simple, thats the point.

You've just repeated the same thing I just responded to.

Maybe you could address what I said in response, instead.

Then what are you saying? They had false memories?

If you read the entirety of my last post, you should know what I am talking about.

Thats right, therefore what you believe is not true just because you believe oposite to me.

Yes, obviously. I've never claimed that I was right "just because you believe oposite to me." Notice how I gave reasons and explanations as to why I think your explanations are a stretch.
Maybe you could address that.

Sure i do. And its been presented.

You've made assertions. You have not presented any evidence indicating that brains and consciousness are separate things.
And when I point out reasons to show that they are not separate things, instead of actually addressing them, you just tell me I'm brainwashed, which to me is just a cop out answer.

Theres nothing wrong with anecdotes.

There is if you're trying to use them as evidence for something. Which you are.

Give me examples of those experiences you had.

I did.
How did you miss it?

I do know, for myself.

You believe.

If the path for our spirit to project to the spirit realm is hard, then logically the path for a spirit to project to our realm would be hard too.

You can't even show that spirits or spirit realms exist in the first place. You don't get to start assigning characteristics to places that haven't been shown to exist. That's not logical. In fact, it's just making stuff up. Or over complicating things, as I've said.

Read it and tell me.

I read it. I'm asking YOU, since you keep posting it. Why do you keep posting it, and what do you think it is saying? Because I don't see it backing up your claims.

I'm probably too stupid to understand it anyway, right? LOL

 

[tas8831]

What makes the claim extrordinary?

UFO?