The Anchor of Faith

[ManSinha]

What else do you have to look at as a goal?

That might vary based on beliefs - for example the Abrahamic faiths believe that the goal would be to be saved on Judgment Day or at Resurrection and then have an eternal life - per my understanding

For those that are inclined to the dharmic side - it might mean the end of the rebirth cycle and merging into the Light of the Universe

 

[sealchan]

As I scrolled thru this thread I found the quote from @Nakosis interesting

If you look back at the history of persecution especially religious persecution - humans do not have a good track record - I had a post earlier in which I provided graphic examples of how ordinary mortals had chosen to suffer unimaginable pain rather than give up their faith (or religion) - now there must be something driving these people in this direction over the millennia

Of course the comparisons in "modern" times would be human rights activists in places like the Middle East and Russia - which brings up a question - do they accept their lot based on principle? or faith?

I suspect that what drives people to accept such suffering is the notion that if others follow their example then they would defeat suffering. And doing what needs to be done seems like it could or would be enough.

 

[sealchan]

Faith is not reliable. In my experience, it is as likely to let you down as not. It does not seem reasonable to me to invest heavily into faith. There are other ways to deal with one's psychological needs which doesn't require faith.

But what if your faith was in something possible, if only everyone would choose to believe...

 

[sealchan]

I think faith is a hold on reality that is hidden from everyone because of evil forces that are in between us and the truth. The truth is hidden from everyone and Satan along with the other powerful princes are in the way and he holds sway over people through lies because of our sins against the truth. Sin against the truth is every false way. Has God hidden Himself from us? Or did we hide God in a myriad of lies? So faith alone overcomes the darkness and reaches to God.

God formed all things from the chaos and the Word of God gives it order. If we turn against the Word of God then we are scattered.

Your faith, like mine, involves believing in a reality that people are failing to make real because of their actions. Understanding what prevents us from making the right choices is critical I think.

 

[sealchan]

I have understood faith is actually faithfulness, which means loyalty. Christians should be loyal (faithful) to God and keep His words and remain in them. This is why it is said:


But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:38

Righteous will have eternal life, because he is loyal to God. If person is not, then he doesn’t have eternal life.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

Do you believe that loyalty has a positive net benefit in this life? Or is that benefit invisible until another time and place...that no one has ever proven to exist?

Do you accept the "tenuosity" of the practical assumptions you may be counting on?

 

[sealchan]

I don't have death so I don't have life after death.

I find it a hard sell to say there is no death. That runs against the practical reality that I am familiar with.

 

[sealchan]

That might vary based on beliefs - for example the Abrahamic faiths believe that the goal would be to be saved on Judgment Day or at Resurrection and then have an eternal life - per my understanding

For those that are inclined to the dharmic side - it might mean the end of the rebirth cycle and merging into the Light of the Universe

Both of which are practical outcomes but with no demonstrable existence.

We dont know these outcomes will ever actually come to be, but I think we, as humans, learn on them for comfort because we cant bear to have a faith without a literal outcome.

 

[sealchan]

Thanks for the thoughts so far.

I'm thinking that "payoff" for our suffering is essential and this makes the Prisoner's dilemma especially relevant...

Prisoner's dilemma - Wikipedia

The Prisoner's dilemma involves "trusting" that an inaccessible other will make the choice that saves them both vs making the choice that reduces but does not eliminate suffering for themselves. The enemy of this scenario is whatsoever erodes that ability to trust the other. Of course the other prisoner is in the exact same position.

To me this epitomizes how faith is in something intelligent and relatable but unseen, it cannot guarantee a favorable outcome, but complete absolution comes from a union of action with it. This "game scenario" seems to model the "gamble" each of us takes in our faith as well as the importance of practical outcome to an otherwise inaccessible reality.

 

[ManSinha]

I suspect that what drives people to accept such suffering is the notion that if others follow their example then they would defeat suffering. And doing what needs to be done seems like it could or would be enough.

mmmmmm - that is a profound thought - when I think back to the 9th Master - probably he had something very similar in mind

 

[Spirit of Light]

So in your faith at any point, did you believe in something "tenuous" or something that practical considerations would easily discount? Like an afterlife or a God?

Well if a person do not reach enlightenment this life he/she have to live again in a new human or animal life, but if the person do gain enligtenment (in buddhism then Nibbana)
Do i belive in a creator God? no
Do i belive there is gods an buddhas other the Buddha Sakyamuni? yes

 

[Spirit of Light]

Your life as a human being is not a goal? What else do you have to look at as a goal?

Nibbana/Nirvana

 

[sealchan]

Well if a person do not reach enlightenment this life he/she have to live again in a new human or animal life, but if the person do gain enligtenment (in buddhism then Nibbana)
Do i belive in a creator God? no
Do i belive there is gods an buddhas other the Buddha Sakyamuni? yes

So in my understanding your anchor, your payoff, the practical outcome with no provable truth is escaping suffering and reaching enlightenment/nirvana. And by enlightenment I assume you mean to reach a perspective from which you are no longer deluded by maya.

The effort to throw off delusion is one we should all cultivate. Accepting knowledge, achieving detachment from the outcomes of our actions and knowing the peace of a mind that is at rest are all beneficial. Why then believe in a place or state of being that no one can prove exists to "anchor" that belief in a practical outcome? Why declare, "Such a one will not be reborn, but others will"?

What if being a bodhisattva is not really a choice?

 

[Spirit of Light]

So in my understanding your anchor, your payoff, the practical outcome with no provable truth is escaping suffering and reaching enlightenment/nirvana. And by enlightenment I assume you mean to reach a perspective from which you are no longer deluded by maya.

The effort to throw off delusion is one we should all cultivate. Accepting knowledge, achieving detachment from the outcomes of our actions and knowing the peace of a mind that is at rest are all beneficial. Why then believe in a place or state of being that no one can prove exists to "anchor" that belief in a practical outcome? Why declare, "Such a one will not be reborn, but others will"?

What if being a bodhisattva is not really a choice?

a Bodisattva is a person who take a vow to help as many as possible to reach enlightenment before he or she attain it them self.

I have no doubt in the teaching or in the Buddha, and i have been long enough on the path(cultivation) to understand and to have seen evidence within me that the teaching is true. In deep meditation i gained insight to even the unseen, but the problem is that people look for evidence outside them self. outside the body and the mind. This is not where you will find evidence that a path is true or not. The answer arise within you. Because a spiritual path is a personal path.
I dont have to prove to others that the path i am on is true.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Faith is a belief in something beyond proof. As such that faith could be seen as a bit too dissociated from practical reality. As such do we find that faith often reaches out beyond it's own natural domain to make one or more tenuous claims about the nature of reality for the sake of our psychological need to see something concrete and practical in our unproven beliefs?

Can we not live with a faith that reminds us of what I might call "the unbearable lightness of subjective meaning"?

Jesus rising form the dead intersects ultimate reality.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Faith is a belief in something beyond proof. As such that faith could be seen as a bit too dissociated from practical reality. As such do we find that faith often reaches out beyond it's own natural domain to make one or more tenuous claims about the nature of reality for the sake of our psychological need to see something concrete and practical in our unproven beliefs?

Can we not live with a faith that reminds us of what I might call "the unbearable lightness of subjective meaning"?

No, we cannot. Because real faith is anchored in trust on reasoned knowledge! Should I have a lot of faith the Sun will rise tomorrow or a little faith only, based on currently revealed/known knowledge?

 

[sealchan]

a Bodisattva is a person who take a vow to help as many as possible to reach enlightenment before he or she attain it them self.

I have no doubt in the teaching or in the Buddha, and i have been long enough on the path(cultivation) to understand and to have seen evidence within me that the teaching is true. In deep meditation i gained insight to even the unseen, but the problem is that people look for evidence outside them self. outside the body and the mind. This is not where you will find evidence that a path is true or not. The answer arise within you. Because a spiritual path is a personal path.
I dont have to prove to others that the path i am on is true.

I have no doubt that you have found fruits along the path of Buddhism. I too have been inspired by the teachings and the life of the Buddha in my own small way.

Is nirvana a literal reality? Will a person who reaches it spend time there and enjoy its fruits? Do you think you will ever in any lifetime come to a point where you can say, "It is accomplished! I am enlightened!"

 

[Shantanu]

Faith is a belief in something beyond proof. As such that faith could be seen as a bit too dissociated from practical reality. As such do we find that faith often reaches out beyond it's own natural domain to make one or more tenuous claims about the nature of reality for the sake of our psychological need to see something concrete and practical in our unproven beliefs?

Can we not live with a faith that reminds us of what I might call "the unbearable lightness of subjective meaning"?

Over the years I have come to have a faith and I am currently ascertaining the mechanism for that faith for I do periodically pay devotional reverences to God even though my faith tells me that God is Pure Consciousness and only manifests Himself to me through my dharma as a personal eternal experience. So I feel I am protected through this dharma of doing the right thing always and these actions comes naturally from God consciousness. That is the Faith.

As to how I prove this Faith: I prove it to myself in the moments of realisation that lead me to pay devotional reverences to God in having charted my path and journey of life fruitfully.

 

[sealchan]

Jesus rising form the dead intersects ultimate reality.

And I think that bit was an early addition to the tradition of Jesus' life (note how Mark seems to have added this clumsily).

That "fact" buried "safely" in the past and untouchable by any kind of direct documentary evidence is part of the way in which Christian's anchor their spiritual beliefs in practical reality. The historicity of Jesus is so deeply vital for most.

My claim is that this anchor is an outgrowth of the human need for certainty and as such is a corruption of the deeper value of spiritual belief and faith. It may be a compromise as we may not be able to stomach a faith system without a specific, ultimate payout that we might look forward to.

I think that "ultimate" is probably a key factor...heaven, nirvana are promises of final salvation, not just deep feasts one can experience and move on from...as such they flavor the finality of death with something more palatable.

 

[sealchan]

Over the years I have come to have a faith and I am currently ascertaining the mechanism for that faith for I do periodically pay devotional reverences to God even though my faith tells me that God is Pure Consciousness and only manifests Himself to me through my dharma as a personal eternal experience. So I feel I am protected through this dharma of doing the right thing always and these actions comes naturally from God consciousness. That is the Faith.

As to how I prove this Faith: I prove it to myself in the moments of realisation that lead me to pay devotional reverences to God in having charted my path and journey of life.

My sense of you as of late is that you are self-reflective about your faith and that you might intuit the problem of the anchor as I am trying to explain in this thread. As such I think what you describe above is a sincere effort to allow your spiritual experience to be a present thing and not a future promise of a radical change of state. As such you seem like you are striving to be rid of the anchor which I would say is the higher spiritual goal.

IMO the kingdom of heaven and nirvana are to be sought as present spiritual realities and not future literal, ultimate promises. But I think that we need these "anchors" of the invisible spiritual realm to be dropped into the practical, even physical, realm in order, ironically, for our faith to build momentum.

 

[sealchan]

No, we cannot. Because real faith is anchored in trust on reasoned knowledge! Should I have a lot of faith the Sun will rise tomorrow or a little faith only, based on currently revealed/known knowledge?

Many would argue you need no faith at all that the sun will rise as this can be repeatedly demonstrated. What I am calling the anchor is the future promise of an ultimate experience-able change in one's state of being that promises to replace our current practical reality.

I would agree that we are best served by beliefs and practices which can be grounded in reasoned knowledge. Reasoned knowledge is best supported by present experience rather than future promise. Future promise is, at best, a inference and, at worse, a sincere, motivating fiction.