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Patrick Moore, co-founder of Greenpeace, has lost his marbles?

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It seems implicit in your approach that you'd be addressing well intended, rational politicians. What's closer to the truth in DC is that she's addressing corrupt politicians.
To call them "corrupt" doesn't change the usefulness of effective persuasion to
implement good policies. We've always had corruption & incompetence on both
sides of the aisle, & we always will. No politician is fully rational, including OAC.
The trick is to appeal to their motives they have, especially including re-election.
One should ask oneself...what would Machiavelli do?
Advocacy must be designed to affect humans as we are, not as we wish they were.
She should really give me a call, & seek my counsel. She could become useful.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Just in case she's reading your posts on RF...what would you do about the climate trouble ahead?
I'd advise her to promote the policies I've already laid out for her,
which are justifiable by not just GW mitigation, but also worthwhile
for environmental, security & economic benefits...without requiring
giant spendy new federal programs. And without attacking things
like hamburgers, cars, & airplane travel. One gots to look real.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
I'd advise her to promote the policies I've already laid out for her,
which are justifiable by not just GW mitigation, but also worthwhile
for environmental, security & economic benefits...without requiring
giant spendy new federal programs. And without attacking things
like hamburgers, cars, & airplane travel. One gots to look real.
Would your policies prevent warming of 2 degrees?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Would your policies prevent warming of 2 degrees?
I have no idea.

Is achievable partial success better than
inaction because of a rash impractical solution?

Some background....
In Praise of Incrementalism (Ep. 264) - Freakonomics
Even if we in Ameristan put OAC in charge to radically alter society,
we're a small part of the world. Our effect would be small.
Would other countries emulate our eschewing cars & air travel, our
rebuilding every building for greenness? Most couldn't afford it.
But if we do practical things which they too could adopt, so could they.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Of course. It would be better if we could avoid the 2 degrees though.
There are questions with unknown answers...
- Is 2 degrees the critical temperature?
- What is the time frame?
- Is our situation so critical that we must treat GW
with the same urgency & sacrifice as WW2?

Some claim to have the answers, but I'm skeptical that
their models & methods are anywhere near precise.
They have a credibility problem. Claiming the sky is falling
doesn't help. So people won't buy into extreme solutions.
Thus, if that's all they propose, they'll go unheeded.

And look at their actions. If they really believed what they
say, wouldn't they do more to reduce their environmental
footprint? OAC hasn't given up hamburgers & SUVs yet.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
There are questions with unknown answers...
- Is 2 degrees the critical temperature?
- What is the time frame?
- Is our situation so critical that we must treat GW
with the same urgency & sacrifice as WW2?

Some claim to have the answers, but I'm skeptical that
their models & methods are anywhere near precise.
They have a credibility problem. Claiming the sky is falling
doesn't help. So people won't buy into extreme solutions.
Thus, if that's all they propose, they'll go unheeded.
There are uncertainties with everything. From what I've read of the science I don't believe there is sufficient doubt to fail to act. The best answers we have are that 2 degrees is about the tipping point where it becomes a massive problem for everyone on Earth. I trust the science and the science is pretty conclusive as I see it. If they solution is extreme it is because the threat is extreme.

However, I get that you don't agree or don't fully agree and I don't expect that a debate will help either of us. I'll change my mind when the scientific community changes its mind. What would change yours?

revoltingest said:
And look at their actions. If they really believed what they
say, wouldn't they do more to reduce their environmental
footprint? OAC hasn't given up hamburgers & SUVs yet.
Maybe she's a hypocrite. That doesn't make her wrong.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
No. He left GP as he saw, according to him, alarmists, Eco-fascists and those wishing to profit from alarmist taking over. AOC knows nothing about the subject but is an alarmist Moore hates.

He isn't misquoting her. Her plans might as well be written in crayon.

Riddle me this. How is the US going to force it's residents to remodel their homes? That is a detail left out of AOC plan.

Have you read the resolution?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I'd advise her to promote the policies I've already laid out for her,
which are justifiable by not just GW mitigation, but also worthwhile
for environmental, security & economic benefits...without requiring
giant spendy new federal programs. And without attacking things
like hamburgers, cars, & airplane travel. One gots to look real.

Have you read the GND resolution?

Text - H.Res.109 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): Recognizing the duty of the Federal Government to create a Green New Deal.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
There are uncertainties with everything. From what I've read of the science I don't believe there is sufficient doubt to fail to act. The best answers we have are that 2 degrees is about the tipping point where it becomes a massive problem for everyone on Earth. I trust the science and the science is pretty conclusive as I see it. If they solution is extreme it is because the threat is extreme.

However, I get that you don't agree or don't fully agree and I don't expect that a debate will help either of us. I'll change my mind when the scientific community changes its mind. What would change yours?

Maybe she's a hypocrite. That doesn't make her wrong.
Thoughts....

I don't doubt a massive problem awaiting us.
The main problem is how to address it, both in Ameristan & around the world.
I see 3 camps....
1) Denialists
2) Incrementalists
3) The sky is falling.
The 3rd lacks influence over the first 2.
The 2nd holds potential to get the 1st to go along with real world solutions.

I'm unlikely to accept claims of precision in global climate predictions because
testability is elusive. Instead, I'll treat climate models as having general, not
quantitative predictability....much like economic models.
People who tell me to have more faith in science are too often people with
even less science background than even I have. This does not inspire faith.

I don't fault OAC for hypocrisy. I even doubt that she is all that hypocritical.
But selling fear of doom & radical policies to fix things requires that she be
like Caesars's wife...beyond reproach. It's about effective public relations.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I'd advise her to promote the policies I've already laid out for her,
which are justifiable by not just GW mitigation, but also worthwhile
for environmental, security & economic benefits...without requiring
giant spendy new federal programs. And without attacking things
like hamburgers, cars, & airplane travel. One gots to look real.

Again, if you were addressing people who were not corrupted, I would agree. So your proposals sound good to me, but sadly, the folks in DC don't have our best interests at heart.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Again, if you were addressing people who were not corrupted, I would agree. So your proposals sound good to me, but sadly, the folks in DC don't have our best interests at heart.
No, my approach addresses all, be they corrupted or pure as the driven snow.
Even corrupt politicians have motives which can be used for the greater good,
eg, William Marcy Tweed.
But OAC will influence none but those who were on her side even before she was.
 

Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
Quite a rant here on Faux News:

Greenpeace co-founder tears into 'pompous little twit' Ocasio-Cortez's Green New Deal

(And as an aside: I think it's telling that AOC's enemies are SO blatant about misquoting her.)
Just putting the OP into context. He was never a co-founder of GreenPeace and he has for many years exploited and lied about his involvement there in order to promote typical naïveté regarding any and all environmental issues. :rolleyes:
> He is and always has been a fraud. <—
 

wandering peacefully

Which way to the woods?
There are questions with unknown answers...
- Is 2 degrees the critical temperature?
- What is the time frame?
- Is our situation so critical that we must treat GW
with the same urgency & sacrifice as WW2?

Some claim to have the answers, but I'm skeptical that
their models & methods are anywhere near precise.
They have a credibility problem. Claiming the sky is falling
doesn't help. So people won't buy into extreme solutions.
Thus, if that's all they propose, they'll go unheeded.

And look at their actions. If they really believed what they
say, wouldn't they do more to reduce their environmental
footprint? OAC hasn't given up hamburgers & SUVs yet.
But, but..sea levels are rising and displacing coastal villages and cities as we speak. It will be more like 10 degree increase within 50 years if we don't get serious about some mitigation now. Not tomorrow or the next day.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Or maybe we all should retrain ourselves about honesty and influence. At least a bit.

It has become entirely too commonplace to tolerate utterly toxic amounts of bias. It is no surprise that political discourse has become this tragicomedy.
Is this a personal admission?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
But, but..sea levels are rising and displacing coastal villages and cities as we speak. It will be more like 10 degree increase within 50 years if we don't get serious about some mitigation now. Not tomorrow or the next day.
I'm proposing getting serious, including about things
which all along should've been taken more seriously.
But being serious doesn't mean acting rashly.
 

wandering peacefully

Which way to the woods?
I'm proposing getting serious, including about things
which all along should've been taken more seriously.
But being serious doesn't mean acting rashly.
Yes, have to be rational and willing to live the necessary actions required ourselves.

There needs to be a balance as you said above. Sell it as a big money maker in green energy and clean water/air. I just am afraid most people do not realize the seriousness of the situation and won't until it is too late. I could already be too late and we will just have to go from one disaster to the next trying to do clean up. As you said, these things should have been started many years ago. But again, the science wasn't around before the 70's. And no fossil fuel industry was going to let a few quacks ruin their profits. Now at least the science is taken seriously. We shall see I guess. It has to start local at town halls and cities. Green cities and houses. I don't think it will be able to be done through Washington. Too many lobbyists.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Yes, have to be rational and willing to live the necessary actions required ourselves.

There needs to be a balance as you said above. Sell it as a big money maker in green energy and clean water/air. I just am afraid most people do not realize the seriousness of the situation and won't until it is too late. I could already be too late and we will just have to go from one disaster to the next trying to do clean up. As you said, these things should have been started many years ago. But again, the science wasn't around before the 70's. And no fossil fuel industry was going to let a few quacks ruin their profits. Now at least the science is taken seriously. We shall see I guess. It has to start local at town halls and cities. Green cities and houses. I don't think it will be able to be done through Washington. Too many lobbyists.
The oft cited problems of "too many lobbyists" & "corruption" are there whether
we take a hasty or incremental approach. And I recognize that many are panicky,
thinking it's already or soon too late. They should calm down. Selling a hasty,
ill considered overnite solution could exacerbate the problem because it would
be dismissed & ignored.
We've a problem where many who want greener measures actually oppose some
good solutions, eg, changing zoning laws & building codes for higher density.
This would be essentially tax free betterment. I've been in real estate a long time,
& have seen great resistance to solar, wind, higher density, higher fuel tax, etc
by those who should've supported them.
 
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