The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints vs the Westboro Baptist Church

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I took exception to your statement that the WBC is more "benign" than the LDS Church. I hadn't even been following your conversation with Prestor John.

And I stand by my statement. The WBC shouts and holds signs. That's it.

They've never had anyone fired, evicted or expelled. None of their members have ever physically assaulted someone they disagreed with. They've never lobbied to have the law changed to make life more difficult for people they view as sinners. They've never driven anybody to suicide. Your religion - or its members - have done all of those things.

 

[Audie]

Yeah, but my poll wasn't about whose origins were the "silliest"; it was about which organization's members are the most "benign."

Yeah, well, I got in my "but" first, and, I was trying to praise
you guys.

I think all religions are silly, so you aint special.

 

[Nakosis]

The following are synonyms for the word "Benign": kindly, kind, warmhearted, good-natured, friendly, warm, affectionate, agreeable, amiable, good-humored, genial, congenial, cordial, approachable, tender, tenderhearted, softhearted, gentle, sympathetic, compassionate, caring, considerate, thoughtful, helpful, well disposed, obliging, accommodating, generous, big-hearted, unselfish, benevolent, gracious, liberal, indulgent.

In another thread, I was told that the Westboro Baptist Church was "more benign" than The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. While I would be the first person to acknowledge that my Church is far from perfect, this comment simply blew my mind.

So, I would like to know how the rest of the RF community feels. Please provide reasons for the way you voted.

This is just FYI, or really for anyone.

Mormon and Gay - An Official Church Website

It seems to me the view is either go straight or go chaste. The only options for a Mormon?

The Elders assume to know God's will, so to be a Mormon, I'd imagine one would have to respect that view.

 

[Katzpur]

And I stand by my statement. The WBC shouts and holds signs. That's it.

And that's not because they're such nice guys. It's because that's all they can do.

They've never had anyone fired, evicted or expelled. None of their members have ever physically assaulted someone they disagreed with.

Now you are truly grasping at straws.

They've never lobbied to have the law changed to make life more difficult for people they view as sinners. They've never driven anybody to suicide. Your religion - or its members - have done all of those things.

Again, I'm sure it's not for lack of desire. Besides, it's completely unreasonable to lump 16 million people all together because they are all "members" of the same Church. Your absolute hatred for all things LDS is so over-the-top I don't even know how to respond to you any more. No church, Christian or otherwise, has a monopoly on good or on evil. And when it gets right down to it, neither do atheists. The LDS Church has some policies you don't like. Well, they have some policies I don't like either. But there is absolutely nothing I could possibly say to make you hate us any less, so I'm not going to waste my time trying. Oh, and by the way, you mentioned that I continue to pay tithes to this despicable organization to which I belong, suggesting that for me to do so is in some way hypocritical. Well, let me tell you something. I'd say that of the more than $10,000 I paid in tithing last year, maybe about 10 cents went towards accomplishing the horrible things you see the LDS Church as being responsible for. We're talking less than a drop in a very, very large bucket, but with your tunnel vision, that's all you want to see.

 

[LuisDantas]

Personally, I'm not excusing the WBC of anything. I condemn them, and condemn "mainstream" anti-LGBTQ churches even more.

I am really thorn, penguin.

Objectively, LDS seems to cause more harm. But at the same time, it has far better shot at learning better. That by its turn has a downside of its own, as it presents something of a respectable face to what are ultimately very questionable acts.

By contrast, Westboro is a much more clear example of hatred claiming to be of a religious nature. In that sense it is its own warning, and people have to go through a much more serious clash to learn better after being a part of it.

On an individual person basis, Westboro is clearly much more harmful. But it is also less accepted, which is something.

 

[Katzpur]

This is just FYI, or really for anyone.

Mormon and Gay - An Official Church Website

It seems to me the view is either go straight or go chaste. The only options for a Mormon?

The Elders assume to know God's will, so to be a Mormon, I'd imagine one would have to respect that view.

If you're part of the LGBT community, I'm afraid that's what it gets down to. I and many, many others like me aren't happy with those policies, but we can do little about them except to let our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters know we're there for them. And believe me, we're working hard at it.

 

[lukethethird]

It's hard but it's better than nothing.

How so? There are non-religious support groups that are more inclusive than religious groups, so it doesn't have to be LDS or nothing in order to be a do gooder.

 

[Katzpur]

Objectively, LDS seems to cause more harm.

To be fair, though, the question wasn't who does the most harm; it was who does the most good. Because of our numbers, we're able to do more harm and more good. All I'm asking is that people not completely ignore the good. When they focus only on what they don't like about the Church, they're overlooking a lot of good that we do -- good that would never happen without concerned, caring, generous people who are willing to serve others.

 

[Katzpur]

How so? There are non-religious support groups that are more inclusive than religious groups, so it doesn't have to be LDS or nothing in order to be a do gooder.

Excuse me, but I said that baby steps are better than nothing. Why would you disagree with that? And why would you even bring up non-religious support groups? What they do is great, but it's beside the point in terms of the question I asked in my OP.

 

[Nakosis]

If you're part of the LGBT community, I'm afraid that's what it gets down to. I and many, many others like me aren't happy with those policies, but we can do little about them except to let our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters know we're there for them. And believe me, we're working hard at it.

Just a question from my POV. You choose to continue to be a Mormon for whatever reason. Not my business.

However once you start to question the leadership of a church, where do you stop?

I mean if you question it at all, don't you start to question it all?

You question the leadership's authority on LGBTs, what is to stop you from questioning all of their authority? If they are wrong on this they can be just as wrong on a whole slew of other things?

 

[idea]

Well, despite the LDS Church's flaws, some of which truly break my heart, I can name dozens of "benign" (i.e. kind, warmhearted, amiable, approachable, compassionate, caring, considerate, thoughtful, helpful, generous, and/or unselfish") things we've done over the years, the suffering we've alleviated in third-world countries, the no-strings-attached-help we've offered to people outside our faith and our overall efforts towards peaceful coexistence. I can't think of one single solitary thing the members of the Westboro Baptists have done to benefit society at large. They may not have a large enough presence to do much other than espouse hatred, but they wrote the book on that. Despite the unfortunate attitude many Latter-day Saints have towards the LGBT community, you'll never see us walking around with signs that say, "God hates ****" or "Thank God for AIDS" and we wouldn't even think of picketing a soldier's (or anyone else's) funeral. We have a long way to go, but we're at least moving in the right direction, if slowly. And we would never, ever, ever promote violence against those values we do not share.

I have to say - I much prefer open, honest vocal groups to dishonest, hypocritical, wolves in sheep's clothing groups....

A few news articles:
Pastor of Utah's largest African-American congregation says racism still 'institutionalized' in Utah

Utah’s suicide rate has shot up 46.5% since 1999 — making it the fifth-highest in the nation

It is similar to comparing these villans:

The lady in pink freaks me out the most. That is how I now view Mormons.

 

[lukethethird]

Excuse me, but I said that baby steps are better than nothing. Why would you disagree with that? And why would you even bring up non-religious support groups? What they do is great, but it's beside the point in terms of the question I asked in my OP.

The point was that making baby steps is not better than nothing. Gay bashing won't go away as long as religious texts are referred to, there are no baby steps to be had, and Jesus isn't coming back either.

 

[Katzpur]

Just a question from my POV. You choose to continue to be a Mormon for whatever reason. Not my business.

However once you start to question the leadership of a church, where do you stop?

I mean if you question it at all, don't you start to question it all?

You question the leadership's authority on LGBTs, what is to stop you from questioning all of their authority? If they are wrong on this they can be just as wrong on a whole slew of other things?

Of course, they could be wrong about literally everything. They are, after all, merely human, so it goes without saying that they're flawed just like everybody else in the world. I don't know if this will make sense to you or not, but I'll do my best to explain why I continue to be LDS despite the fact that I don't always see eye-to-eye with the Church's leadership on every issue. As I said in an earlier post, there are over 40,000 different Christian denominations in the world today, at least according to some sources; other sources say that number is greatly exaggerated. Wiki's list of Christian denominations goes on and on and on. Whether there are 400 or 40,000, no two teach exactly the same things about Jesus Christ. Each of them interprets scripture differently than the others. Some insist on baptism; others don't. Same believe we are saved by faith alone; other's believe one's works matter. The differences with respect to specific Christian doctrines are numerous.

I happen to believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is teaching the same doctrines Jesus Christ taught His disciples. I believe that my Church is organized today as the original Church was organized, and that its leaders hold the same authority Jesus' original Apostles did. Doctrines are eternal truths. They aren't going to change over time. Policies are another matter entirely. They change all the time. They impact how the Church functions in people's lives. I believe that some changes are made by revelation from God to the Church's leadership and that some are made by men acting on their own, usually with good intentions but not always as God would have them do. I believe the doctrines taught by my Church; I do not always agree with the policies of its leaders. The doctrines won't be any different a hundred years from now, but the policies may be very, very different.

I could leave the LDS Church and join a church that was more LGBT-friendly, but that church wouldn't be satisfying to me spiritually because the doctrines would be hard, if not impossible, for me to believe. I am further convinced that I can do a lot more good in the world as a Latter-day Saint than I could do as a member of a different Church. The opportunities for service as a Latter-day Saint are boundless. For several years now, I've been struggling to go to church on Sundays. It wasn't that I didn't believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ that I was hearing taught there was true. It was that I felt -- because of my more liberal perspectives on a lot of things -- that I was a square peg trying to fit into a round hole. Several months ago, I started praying about this. I asked God every single day to find a place for me in the Church where I could feel I belonged, where I could do some good, and where I would find peace and comfort. And you know what? God answered my prayers. Since November, my husband and I have been teaching Sunday School at the Salt Lake Metropolitan Jail. I have never in my life found such fulfillment and satisfaction. We're going to be doing this for at least three years, hopefully longer.

Lastly, it's a lot easier to work for change from within an organization than it is from the outside.

 

[Katzpur]

The lady in pink freaks me out the most. That is how I now view Mormons.

Then that's evidently how you view me. Thanks. Would you like to know how I view you? When I read your old Molly-Mormon posts, I shake my head in disbelief over how hateful you've become in the past year. This has nothing to do with your decision to leave the Church, incidentally. A lot of people leave the Church and don't let their hatred eat at their gut forever afterwards. Despite the fact that I often saw you as looking at the Church through rose-colored glasses, I now see you as being to steeped in contempt for what you once embraced that it's hard to realize I'm even talking to the same person I was a few years back.

 

[Katzpur]

The point was that making baby steps is not better than nothing.

Fair enough. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

[idea]

I believe the doctrines taught by my Church;

So.... you believe in polygamy, you believe women are inferior to men, you believe those who are "fair and delight some" are better than those who are not fair, you believe God only directs 0.01% of the population and leaves the rest of the world in the dark. You believe the LDS church is the only true church, and all of the other religious groups are false. You believe in outer darkness. ... You believe the Book of Abraham was correctly translated...

Moroni 9:9 - the little girls personal progress book - you believe their virtue is taken if they were raped....

.... no more rose colored glasses for me I'm afraid.

Then that's evidently how you view me. Thanks. Would you like to know how I view you? When I read your old Molly-Mormon posts, I shake my head in disbelief over how hateful you've become in the past year. This has nothing to do with your decision to leave the Church, incidentally. A lot of people leave the Church and don't let their hatred eat at their gut forever afterwards. Despite the fact that I often saw you as looking at the Church through rose-colored glasses, I now see you as being to steeped in contempt for what you once embraced that it's hard to realize I'm even talking to the same person I was a few years back.

Yes - I was a total molly Mormon - did everything I was supposed to. Calling carrying, scripture reading, temple attending, submissive stay-at-home and pop out kids Molly Mormon... promised "blessings" ... and how was I repaid? Bishopric member abuses my kids, then the church I gave so much to - completely turns their back on me and my family. No support, no help, refuse to even talk to me.

Pure evil.

At least the pope and the baptists are being transparent about their abuse problems, and are doing their best to acknowledge it and change it.

The LDS church will never acknowledge the abuse that goes on in there.

Joseph Smith was a pedophile. The church was founded by adulterous treasure seeking criminals... I see that now.

 

[Jane.Doe]

So.... you believe in polygamy, you believe women are inferior to men, you believe those who are "fair and delight some" are better than those who are not fair, you believe God only directs 0.01% of the population and leaves the rest of the world in the dark. You believe the LDS church is the only true church, and all of the other religious groups are false. You believe in outer darkness. ... You believe the Book of Abraham was correctly translated...

Moroni 9:9 - the little girls personal progress book - you believe their virtue is taken if they were raped....

.... no more rose colored glasses for me I'm afraid.



Yes - I was a total molly Mormon - did everything I was supposed to. Calling carrying, scripture reading, temple attending, submissive stay-at-home and pop out kids Molly Mormon... promised "blessings" ... and how was I repaid? Bishopric member abuses my kids, then the church I gave so much to - completely turns their back on me and my family. No support, no help, refuse to even talk to me.

Pure evil.

Idea, I totally respect your decision to not be a LDS Christian.

I do *NOT* respect anyone who's going about hatefully misrepresenting what other people believe, as you are doing here. Such is just bad behavior, not matter if that person is an athiest, Hindu, LDS Christian, Wiccan, or whatever.

- And yes, I myself have been sexually abused, and seen other loved ones abused. You're not alone in that regard. And I will tell you from personal experience that holding that awful hatred inside destroys you. -

 

[Jane.Doe]

Just a question from my POV. You choose to continue to be a Mormon for whatever reason. Not my business.

However once you start to question the leadership of a church, where do you stop?

I mean if you question it at all, don't you start to question it all?

You question the leadership's authority on LGBTs, what is to stop you from questioning all of their authority? If they are wrong on this they can be just as wrong on a whole slew of other things?

Katzpur wrote a great response to this.

Writing my own response: LDS Christians only acknowledge one 100% perfect person to have walked this earth, and His name is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Human leaders are seen to be men of God-- *men* of God are still men. They are still imperfect. And we see into the glass darkly, only knowing a small portion of His wonders-- there is much still for us to learn. These facts don't bother me at all, in fact it's part of the reason I am LDS Christian.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes - I was a total molly Mormon - did everything I was supposed to. Calling carrying, scripture reading, temple attending, submissive stay-at-home and pop out kids Molly Mormon... promised "blessings" ... and how was I repaid? Bishopric member abuses my kids, then the church I gave so much to - completely turns their back on me and my family. No support, no help, refuse to even talk to me.

I'm so sorry that happened to you. Some people do have good reason to hate their former religion. One of the biggest reasons people are leaving Christianity is due to the hatred and abuse they have had inflicted on them or witnessed inflicted on others, in the name of the religion or by clergy and religious. I do so hope that you and your family may find healing.

 

[Salvador]

I honestly don't know much about WBC, but I've met with LDS Christians. The ones I've met are very polite, friendly, and attractive people. A couple of them, so called "elders" who are actually very young models instead of elderly men, have visited our home with me and my wife. I feel so bad for how their great prophet Joseph Smith was mistreated and persecuted in the state of Illinois. My wife and I did really enjoy providing snacks and refreshments as well as making the LDS Christians very comfortable in our home.