The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints vs the Westboro Baptist Church

[Katzpur]

Well, sure. The Mormons don't picket funerals and the like themselves; they've just quietly lobbied governments behind the scenes.

... but when it comes right down to it, which is worse?

• Denying a gay man the right to see his partner while he's dying in hospital
• Picketing his funeral once he's dead

Perhaps you can enlighten me with some actual facts as to how the LDS Church has ever denied a gay man to see his partner while he's dying in the hospital. The Church couldn't do this even if they wanted to. Let's see some sources for your claims.

And that's even without going back to when the LDS Church was pushing to keep homosexuality a crime punishable by prison.

As were many outside the LDS Church. I'm not saying that two wrongs make a right, but you just seem not to want to recognize that homophobia is widespread throughout Christian churches, and that despite the fact that sexually active gays/lesbians are, in fact, marginalized in my Church, we are less "anti-gay" than a lot of other Christians. We simply have the organizational structure that most other churches don't and have, unfortunately at times, used that power insensitively. But just for the record: "Rights for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people in Utah are among the most extensive in the United States. Protective laws have become increasingly enacted since 2014, despite the state's reputation as socially conservative and highly religious. Same-sex marriage has been legal there since the state's ban on same-sex marriage was ruled unconstitutional by a federal court on October 6, 2014. In addition, statewide anti-discrimination laws now cover sexual orientation and gender identity in employment and housing." (Source: LGBT rights in Utah)

As awful as the WBC is, they've never imprisoned a single LGBTQ person.

And why do you suppose that is? Is that where they draw the line, or what?

 

[Katzpur]

I'm just curious... for those who voted that the Westboro Baptist Church is "more benign" than the LDS Church, please cite a few examples of where they have been "benign." I'm all for giving credit where credit's due.

 

[Audie]

The following are synonyms for the word "Benign": kindly, kind, warmhearted, good-natured, friendly, warm, affectionate, agreeable, amiable, good-humored, genial, congenial, cordial, approachable, tender, tenderhearted, softhearted, gentle, sympathetic, compassionate, caring, considerate, thoughtful, helpful, well disposed, obliging, accommodating, generous, big-hearted, unselfish, benevolent, gracious, liberal, indulgent.

In another thread, I was told that the Westboro Baptist Church was "more benign" than The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. While I would be the first person to acknowledge that my Church is far from perfect, this comment simply blew my mind.

So, I would like to know how the rest of the RF community feels. Please provide reasons for the way you voted.

The foundation of LDS is kind of silly, from my pov
BUT
The way the people put their faith into action is most
admirable and a lesson for us all.

 

[Revoltingest]

I also see benign to mean stable...the opposite of malignant.

I voted for Mormons (correct term?) because they're not
troublesome these days (some in history...otherwise).

The two seem too far apart to even suggest comparison.
It would be like asking who is less dangerous....
Hitler's Nazi regime or Girls Gone Wild videos.
OK....not an entirely apt analogy.

 

[columbus]

Ya know,
WBC and LDS aren't actually different religions.
They are different versions of the same one.
Christianity.
Tom

 

[Revoltingest]

Ya know,
WBC and LDS aren't actually different religions.
They are different versions of the same one.
Christianity.
Tom

Things can be so significantly different when they've the same origins.

 

[columbus]

I'm just curious... for those who voted that the Westboro Baptist Church is "more benign" than the LDS Church, please cite a few examples of where they have been "benign." I'm all for giving credit where credit's due.

It's been a long time, so I might be remembering the details incorrectly.

But back in the 70s (iirc), WBC was hard edged about ending racist violence. Fred Phelps collected some big payments by suing the more violent and wealthy racists.

At the time, LDS hadn't quite gotten over their 19th century attitudes towards black folk.
In other words, WBC was actively opposing virulent racism in the USA while the LDS was dithering over the "race issue".
Tom

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Perhaps you can enlighten me with some actual facts as to how the LDS Church has ever denied a gay man to see his partner while he's dying in the hospital. The Church couldn't do this even if they wanted to. Let's see some sources for your claims.

The right to visit one's spouse in the hospital is one of the rights of marriage that the LDS Church campaigned against on several occasions.

As were many outside the LDS Church. I'm not saying that two wrongs make a right, but you just seem not to want to recognize that homophobia is widespread throughout Christian churches, and that despite the fact that sexually active gays/lesbians are, in fact, marginalized in my Church, we are less "anti-gay" than a lot of other Christians.

Indeed. I'm not saying the LDS Church is the worst of the worst; I'm saying that, like many "mainstream" churches, they're worse than the WBC.

We simply have the organizational structure that most other churches don't and have, unfortunately at times, used that power insensitively. But just for the record: "Rights for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people in Utah are among the most extensive in the United States. Protective laws have become increasingly enacted since 2014, despite the state's reputation as socially conservative and highly religious. Same-sex marriage has been legal there since the state's ban on same-sex marriage was ruled unconstitutional by a federal court on October 6, 2014. In addition, statewide anti-discrimination laws now cover sexual orientation and gender identity in employment and housing." (Source: LGBT rights in Utah)

BTW: I think I'm changing my rating of the LDS Church. I forgot that organizations like BYU are wholly owned by the Church; when we take that into account, we have plenty if examples of the Church itself taking direct harmful action against LGBTQ people: expelling them, evicting them, etc. In retrospect, I'd put the LDS Church on the line between 6 and 7.

And why do you suppose that is? Is that where they draw the line, or what?

They draw the line with God. They have faith that God will punish "sinners," so they see no need to do it themselves. They only "convict" and accuse; God is the one that metes out "justice."

 

[Katzpur]

The right to visit one's spouse in the hospital is one of the rights of marriage that the LDS Church campaigned against on several occasions.

While it's true that the unmarried partner of a terminally ill gay man would not have the right to make end-of-life decisions for his partner (which I believe to be wrong), you don't need to be married to someone to visit them in the hospital. Good grief, that's common knowledge.

Indeed. I'm not saying the LDS Church is the worst of the worst; I'm saying that, like many "mainstream" churches, they're worse than the WBC.

The only reason the WBC is not "worse" than it is is that it hasn't gotten the numbers to do the damage it otherwise would.

BTW: I think I'm changing my rating of the LDS Church. I forgot that organizations like BYU are wholly owned by the Church; when we take that into account, we have plenty if examples of the Church itself taking direct harmful action against LGBTQ people: expelling them, evicting them, etc. In retrospect, I'd put the LDS Church on the line between 6 and 7.

And you're basing your "rating" on one issue alone, and are simply dismissing anything good the Church does. By the way, who do you think pushed for the anti-discrimination laws that exist in Utah? Or was passing these laws something that just happened without any LDS Church support?

They draw the line with God. They have faith that God will punish "sinners," so they see no need to do it themselves. They only "convict" and accuse; God is the one that metes out "justice."

That's bull**** and you know it. I can't believe you'd make such a stupid comment.

 

[Katzpur]

The foundation of LDS is kind of silly, from my pov
BUT
The way the people put their faith into action is most
admirable and a lesson for us all.

Yeah, but my poll wasn't about whose origins were the "silliest"; it was about which organization's members are the most "benign."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We have a long way to go, but we're at least moving in the right direction, if slowly. And we would never, ever, ever promote violence against those values we do not share.

That's flat-out false.

An illustrative story:

About a decade ago, one of my friends had a major health crisis. At the hospital, they put him into an induced coma to save his life, where he stayed for 2 weeks. For weeks after that, he was intubated and generally out of it.

His income was going into an account that was only in his name, but his wife - who wasn't working at the time - was fairly easily able to get access to it so that she could keep paying the mortgage and bills. If it weren't for the rights of marriage, it would have been a different story.

Your church fought for a system where, if a same-sex couple had been in the same situation, a sick man's partner would have been denied the means to avoid foreclosure. Your church fought so that, in that situation, people your religion disapproves of and their families would end up homeless.

Tell me again that this isn't promoting violence.

 

[Watchmen]

Is this thread about most “benign” generally or specific to the LGBTQ community?

 

[Katzpur]

Ya know,
WBC and LDS aren't actually different religions.
They are different versions of the same one.
Christianity.
Tom

Right. Along with 40,000 other denominations, none of which is in 100% agreement with any of the others. I'm not excusing the LDS Church's efforts to prevent same-sex marriage, mind you. I have been a supporter of LGBT marriages for many years now, and I think the Church was entirely out of line in how it got involved with Prop 8. That said, I've said it once and I'll say it again: Enormous numbers of non-LDS Christians were also against same-sex marriage. It's just without a central organized governing body like the LDS Church's, other Christian groups just don't have the same clout. If they did, they'd have used it. I don't believe most Christians' perspective is all that different from the LDS Churches. They just don't have the means to make the difference we do. Personally, I would be absolutely thrilled if my Church stayed completely out of politics. Since I don't see that happening, I just have to be satisfied with baby steps. It's hard but it's better than nothing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And you're basing your "rating" on one issue alone, and are simply dismissing anything good the Church does.

It might help if you remember how this whole tangent - now a thread - started: Prestor John made a comment that I challenged:

The LDS Church is not hateful and is not harmful to anyone.

If you want to argue that the good of the Church outweighs its harm, be my guest, but understand that this is a different conversation than what's been going on so far.

By the way, who do you think pushed for the anti-discrimination laws that exist in Utah? Or was passing these laws something that just happened without any LDS Church support?

From what I understand, Utah's anti-discrimination laws have some pretty massive religious exemptions that still let the Church do pretty much whatever it pleases, no?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Is this thread about most “benign” generally or specific to the LGBTQ community?

If we go back to how this all started, it was about harm to anyone. In the other thread, @Prestor John declared that the LDS Church "isn't hateful or harmful to anyone" and I disagreed.

@Katzpur then took exception to my response to @Prestor John.

 

[Katzpur]

That's flat-out false.

Oh, so I'm a liar now. Gee, thanks.

An illustrative story:

About a decade ago, one of my friends had a major health crisis. At the hospital, they put him into an induced coma to save his life, where he stayed for 2 weeks. For weeks after that, he was intubated and generally out of it.

His income was going into an account that was only in his name, but his wife - who wasn't working at the time - was fairly easily able to get access to it so that she could keep paying the mortgage and bills. If it weren't for the rights of marriage, it would have been a different story.

Your church fought for a system where, if a same-sex couple had been in the same situation, a sick man's partner would have been denied the means to avoid foreclosure. Your church fought so that, in that situation, people your religion disapproves of and their families would end up homeless.

Excuse me, but I never said it was right. I believe I was quite clear in stating otherwise. Besides, this has nothing to do with "a hospital visit" which is what you started out by claiming. Stop moving the goalposts already.

Tell me again that this isn't promoting violence.

Okay. This is not promoting violence.

 

[Katzpur]

Is this thread about most “benign” generally or specific to the LGBTQ community?

It was intended to be about being "benign" in general. You know where I stand on the Church's view of the LGBT community. I merely started the thread because of a comment Penguin made.

 

[Katzpur]

From what I understand, Utah's anti-discrimination laws have some pretty massive religious exemptions that still let the Church do pretty much whatever it pleases, no?

No.

 

[Katzpur]

If we go back to how this all started, it was about harm to anyone. In the other thread, @Prestor John declared that the LDS Church "isn't hateful or harmful to anyone" and I disagreed.

I took exception to your statement that the WBC is more "benign" than the LDS Church. I hadn't even been following your conversation with Prestor John.

 

[Vinayaka]

The following are synonyms for the word "Benign": kindly, kind, warmhearted, good-natured, friendly, warm, affectionate, agreeable, amiable, good-humored, genial, congenial, cordial, approachable, tender, tenderhearted, softhearted, gentle, sympathetic, compassionate, caring, considerate, thoughtful, helpful, well disposed, obliging, accommodating, generous, big-hearted, unselfish, benevolent, gracious, liberal, indulgent.

In another thread, I was told that the Westboro Baptist Church was "more benign" than The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. While I would be the first person to acknowledge that my Church is far from perfect, this comment simply blew my mind.

So, I would like to know how the rest of the RF community feels. Please provide reasons for the way you voted.

The LDS church in Salt lake City asked the local Hindu temple society about their fundraising goal for the proposed temple (maybe 20 years back) and offered to donate the final10% once the initial 90% was raised. Some might be cynical that the ultimate goal was to show the Hindus how nice they were, hoping for some friendship conversions, but I'm certainly not that cynical. I think it's just a neighbourly gesture of goodwill.

Imagine Westboro doing something anywhere near to that? I simply can't.

As actual neighbours, I've had LDS, as well as we still do have a fundie. It is no contest.