Putting God's Design In Perspective

[Jollybear]

God's witness is the natural nature of our physical existence.

So, the physical world is a witness of God?

How does it witness of God?

 

[Timothy Spurlin]

Gravity is not proven. But theres good evidence of it by indirect detection.

God likewise is indirectly detected by order, complexity, information and DIRECTLY detected via the NDE.[/QUOTE

Gravity is not proven. But theres good evidence of it by indirect detection.

God likewise is indirectly detected by order, complexity, information and DIRECTLY detected via the NDE.

How do you indirectly detect god?
How is NDE'S direct detection of a god?

 

[Jollybear]

How do you indirectly detect god?
How is NDE'S direct detection of a god?

You indirectly detect intelligence (God in this case) by looking for the hallmarks of intelligence. What are those? Information, order, complexity or....design.

You directly detect God via the NDE because you see the light at the end of the tunnel and this light communicates telepathically too you. Sometimes folk see a being in the light.

 

[Timothy Spurlin]

You indirectly detect intelligence (God in this case) by looking for the hallmarks of intelligence. What are those? Information, order, complexity or....design.

You directly detect God via the NDE because you see the light at the end of the tunnel and this light communicates telepathically too you. Sometimes folk see a being in the light.

NDE's are the brain starving for oxygen. NDE's are subjective, coming from the mind of the individual.

So all you can do is indirectly detect god?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Ill answer that two ways.

1, its a logical impossibility for finite aliens to have created the universe. Now, smaller finite things, like us, perhaps they could. But, a God would still have had to create the universe.

Are you claiming the universe is infinite? How do you know that? Just making it up like you do most of what you post?

2, if aliens wer proven to have biologically engineered us, no, i would not reject God, for God would still be the creator of the universe.

Then you have refuted your own claims about intelligent design. You are claiming that it is God that is the intelligent designer and not any possibility. Accepting aliens as the designer puts us right back at zero. Now you have to find something the aliens did not construct and show that to have been designed by God. You are just chasing your tail and making things up and declaring that made up stuff to be facts.

3, and youl surely get a kick out of this one, i already believe God gave the blueprints to the angelic host (the elohim) to engineer humans. But, the blueprints and knowledge came from God. God let his angelic host play a role in his engineering.

There is a difference between what God directs and what God allows to happen. You clearly do not understand that.

Its not seen? Why do we both have a nose, eyes and ears in the same place then? And the same number of eyes and ears and nose and mouth too?

We see the natural world with our senses. Just because you want it to be design does not make it so. What you are calling design is just the manifestation of nature that you have not shown to be designed. It is your belief. Your belief is not an objective fact. You are biased as all creationists are biased and you cannot have a meaningful discussion because you do not listen to others in the discussion.

Here you are arguing about science and until yesterday, you did not know anything about eggs. You do not show a knowledge of basic biology, so how can your claims about biology or any other aspect of science and nature be considered with any seriousness.

Believe however you like, but demanding that we all suspend our intellects and join you in your laziness would be a sin against God in my mind.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Gravity is not proven. But theres good evidence of it by indirect detection.

God likewise is indirectly detected by order, complexity, information and DIRECTLY detected via the NDE.

LOL! Seriously. You have made up another of your beliefs about something and declared it is real. No one knows what an NDE is or what it means.

How do you know that NDE's are not just a physical perception of chemical reactions and changes in physiology that result from the conditions that manifest near death? You don't. You just picked a claim that fits your bias and consider it a truth without knowing.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

DNA information, order, complexity, NDEs

I presume you mean the information coded in DNA. It does not reveal design or a designer. Order does not reveal a design or a designer. Complexity does not reveal a design or a designer.

NDE's? They reveal that you will conjure up anything to fit your bias. No one knows what an NDE is or if it has an real significance.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

God's witness is the natural nature of our physical existence.

I believe that God is in the nature of our existence, I just recognize that it cannot be demonstrated by physical means that we know of.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

You indirectly detect intelligence (God in this case) by looking for the hallmarks of intelligence. What are those? Information, order, complexity or....design.

You directly detect God via the NDE because you see the light at the end of the tunnel and this light communicates telepathically too you. Sometimes folk see a being in the light.

Do you have evidence for any of this or is it just something you made up? Perhaps you could communicate it to me telepathically?

 

[shunyadragon]

So, the physical world is a witness of God?

How does it witness of God?

It reflects the attributes of God's Creation. It represents the belief in God.

Persisting in the foolishness of Intelligent Design is claiming humans can comprehend Creation in method's and nature of how God creates in terms of human concepts of Design. .

 

[Jollybear]

I believe that God is in the nature of our existence, I just recognize that it cannot be demonstrated by physical means that we know of.

Why would God destroy evidence that he made us?

 

[Jollybear]

NDE's are the brain starving for oxygen. NDE's are subjective, coming from the mind of the individual.

So all you can do is indirectly detect god?

No. Indirect and direct. NDEs are independent of the brain due to some veridical or ESP type NDEs.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Why would God destroy evidence that he made us?

I do not know. I never made a claim that he destroyed evidence. Where is this coming from?

Allowing nature to take its own course is not destroying evidence.

The real questions that need answers involve your claims about intelligent design and the many contradictions you have stated.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

No. Indirect and direct. NDEs are independent of the brain due to some veridical or ESP type NDEs.

You believe a lot of things, but you cannot demonstrate any of it.

Here is what we know about NDE's. Some people have described an experience that they had near death. There is a similarity in some of those descriptions.

Everything else is interpretation of those descriptions. Descriptions that are subjective and could have been caused naturally by chemical and physiological changes occurring near death. You jump to a biased conclusion. Declare that conclusion is the truth. Then use your unverified and speculative conclusions as evidence for some other unverified and speculative conclusion.

 

[Jollybear]

Are you claiming the universe is infinite? How do you know that? Just making it up like you do most of what you post?

Do you read rashly? And respond rashly? God is infinite i said, not the universe.

Then you have refuted your own claims about intelligent design. You are claiming that it is God that is the intelligent designer and not any possibility. Accepting aliens as the designer puts us right back at zero. Now you have to find something the aliens did not construct and show that to have been designed by God. You are just chasing your tail and making things up and declaring that made up stuff to be facts.

I get so tired of these meaningless dialogues. ID posits an intelligence, thats it. Thats all, no more too it. What one thinks the intelligence is, is on them. Understand? For the thousanth time already.

There is a difference between what God directs and what God allows to happen. You clearly do not understand that.

I understand that.

We see the natural world with our senses. Just because you want it to be design does not make it so. What you are calling design is just the manifestation of nature that you have not shown to be designed. It is your belief. Your belief is not an objective fact. You are biased as all creationists are biased and you cannot have a meaningful discussion because you do not listen to others in the discussion.

Are you biased?

Here you are arguing about science and until yesterday, you did not know anything about eggs. You do not show a knowledge of basic biology, so how can your claims about biology or any other aspect of science and nature be considered with any seriousness.

Im not perfectly informed on everything and niether are you or anybody else. I learn as i go and i still learn. Im not ashamed to say i learn new things continually. That dont mean i dont definately know and am informed on some things. It also dont mean i cannot critically think because i most certainly can.

Believe however you like, but demanding that we all suspend our intellects and join you in your laziness would be a sin against God in my mind.

Its the other way around pale. Your asking me to suspend my intellect and deny design that i see in nature and join you in YOUR RASH lazyness.

And how do you know what a sin against God is when you dont even know God or know he made the world? Get with the program, fence sitter.

 

[Jollybear]

It reflects the attributes of God's Creation.

What are the attributes of Gods creation?

It represents the belief in God.

If creation represents belief in God, why dont all believe in God?

Persisting in the foolishness of Intelligent Design is claiming humans can comprehend Creation in method's and nature of how God creates in terms of human concepts of Design. .

I dont understand. Explain more?

 

[Jollybear]

I do not know. I never made a claim that he destroyed evidence. Where is this coming from?

Allowing nature to take its own course is not destroying evidence.

The real questions that need answers involve your claims about intelligent design and the many contradictions you have stated.

So God made it, then left it to be? Ok diest. You are a christian, right?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Do you read rashly? And respond rashly? God is infinite i said, not the universe.

Then it would not be logically impossible for physically extant aliens to create a limited universe and this refutes your first claim about logical impossibilities.

I get so tired of these meaningless dialogues. ID posits an intelligence, thats it. Thats all, no more too it. What one thinks the intelligence is, is on them. Understand? For the thousanth time already.

I can understand the fatigue that you must experience having your unsupported claims shot down so frequently.

But you are not following what the intelligent design movement claims on paper, you are making a specific claim that it is God who is the designer. Therefore, your previous claims that it could be just any intelligence, which includes some unknown alien agent, are refuted.

I understand that.

Not from your writing here.

Are you biased?

We all are to some extent. Unlike you, I try to minimize my own. Some are just more biased and do not seem very discriminating in what they will accept as fact without support which they later apply as fact. Still others do not seem to recognize the difference between subjective belief and objective reality. I consider you to be highly biased based on what I have read so far.

Im not perfectly informed on everything and niether are you or anybody else. I learn as i go and i still learn. Im not ashamed to say i learn new things continually.

I learn new things all the time. The difference is that I do not take an observation or new knowledge and jump to irrational conclusions that I label as truth and then attack others for not accepting my new truth.

That dont mean i dont definately know and am informed on some things. It also dont mean i cannot critically think because i most certainly can.

Then turn that critical thought to all the claims you make.

Its the other way around pale. Your asking me to suspend my intellect and deny design that i see in nature and join you in YOUR RASH lazyness.

No. It is not. It is exactly as I described. You are asking everyone to jump on your rash and biased conclusions without digging deeper and learning what is really happening.

And how do you know what a sin against God is when you dont even know God or know he made the world? Get with the program, fence sitter.

And here is the attacks that I predicted. You have set yourself up as judge of other people and other Christians. It has nothing to do with answers to the many questions you have dodged. It is just your way of avoiding honesty with the logical fallacy of ad hominem attack.

I accept you are a Christian, because you have claimed you are. That is all I have to work with. I cannot read your mind and do not know of anyone that can. I cannot tell what is in your heart and do not know anyone that can.

My interest here has nothing to do with what you choose to believe. I support your right to believe as you choose. The nature of that belief is your own business and between you and God. He is your judge. Not me.

My interest has to do with the assertions that you keep making and cannot support, yet use to attack claims that can be supported. In that area, I have the same right to evaluate it on the logic and evidence and respond accordingly that anyone has.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Then it would not be logically impossible for physically extant aliens to create a limited universe and this refutes your first claim about logical impossibilities.



I can understand the fatigue that you must experience having your unsupported claims shot down so frequently.

But you are not following what the intelligent design movement claims on paper, you are making a specific claim that it is God who is the designer. Therefore, your previous claims that it could be just any intelligence, which includes some unknown alien agent, are refuted.



Not from your writing here.



We all are to some extent. Unlike you, I try to minimize my own. Some are just more biased and do not seem very discriminating in what they will accept as fact without support which they later apply as fact. Still others do not seem to recognize the difference between subjective belief and objective reality. I consider you to be highly biased based on what I have read so far.


I learn new things all the time. The difference is that I do not take an observation or new knowledge and jump to irrational conclusions that I label as truth and then attack others for not accepting my new truth.

Then turn that critical thought to all the claims you make.



No. It is not. It is exactly as I described. You are asking everyone to jump on your rash and biased conclusions without digging deeper and learning what is really happening.

And here is the attacks that I predicted. You have set yourself up as judge of other people and other Christians. It has nothing to do with answers to the many questions you have dodged. It is just your way of avoiding honesty with the logical fallacy of ad hominem attack.

I accept you are a Christian, because you have claimed you are. That is all I have to work with. I cannot read your mind and do not know of anyone that can. I can tell what is in your heart and do not know anyone that can.

My interest here has nothing to do with what you choose to believe. I support your right to believe as you choose. The nature of that belief is your own business and between you and God. He is your judge. Not me.

My interest has to do with the assertions that you keep making and cannot support, yet use to attack claims that can be supported. In that area, I have the same right to evaluate it on the logic and evidence and respond accordingly that anyone has.

It is a common observation that most creationist manage to deflect answering questions that I pose and go on the attack instead.

If you had the support of your claims that you assert you do, and were not intellectually lazy, you would answer the questions as honestly as possible.

I see no answers. You do the math.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

So God made it, then left it to be? Ok diest. You are a christian, right?

How is attacking me going to support your claims? How is that not intellectual laziness? How does it show the correctness of the many irrational things that you are calling the truth?

Is this line of pursuit going to establish your unsupported claims about NDE's as correct?

It is not the hallmark of those with evidence and support of their assertions to turn to low tactics when pressed.