The creator did it.

[ecco]

Even if we leave the origin of life and evolution out of it, you are in effect requiring that God:
- put the fossils in the rocks to fool the scientists, giving the illusion of progressive development over millions of years,

The YECs are wrong to attribute this to the Hebrew/Christian God.

This is all clearly the work of the Gods of LastThursdayism.

They do this, with many variations, with all their Creations.

 

[ecco]

And, you have no reasonable, intelligent or logical answers to the abiogenesis problem that fuels your Darwinian evolution process.

It really doesn't matter if science can address abiogenesis, any more than it matters if science can address the origin of humans. You will believe Genesis because that is what you wish to believe and that is what is deeply ingrained in your brain.

Stating that science cannot provide reasonable, intelligent or logical answers is nothing more than your self imposed smokescreen.

It is not rational, reasonable, intelligent or logical to believe in the Genesis Flood account. To believe it, one has to believe that all geologists and physicists in the world are part of some grand conspiracy.

 

[He has Risen!]

Does anyone on this forum believe the bible? The genealogy of Jesus in Luke chapter 3 traces Jesus back to Adam, showing that Adam is a historical person. Jesus said in Mathew chapter 19 verse 4 "Haven't you read, he said, " that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female."
It appears that Jesus himself believed the bible.

 

[exchemist]

Does anyone on this forum believe the bible? The genealogy of Jesus in Luke chapter 3 traces Jesus back to Adam, showing that Adam is a historical person. Jesus said in Mathew chapter 19 verse 4 "Haven't you read, he said, " that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female."
It appears that Jesus himself believed the bible.

Yes of course but, like revered early fathers of the church such as Origen and educated people ever since, we realise that the bible is a literary work, some of it deriving from ancient people using oral tradition, which employs literary devices, including allegory. People such as Origen, who were familiar with Homer, realised this perfectly well. Allegory can convey a message powerfully and poetically, but you need to realise it for what it is.

There is nothing in evolution, or science more broadly, that denies God created Man, male and female. It is just a question of how He did it.

 

[ecco]

Does anyone on this forum believe the bible? The genealogy of Jesus in Luke chapter 3 traces Jesus back to Adam, showing that Adam is a historical person. Jesus said in Mathew chapter 19 verse 4 "Haven't you read, he said, " that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female."
It appears that Jesus himself believed the bible.

A fictional character states that he believes in a work of fiction.

It's hard to understand why anyone on this forum or elsewhere actually believes the bible.

 

[He has Risen!]

Yes of course but, like revered early fathers of the church such as Origen and educated people ever since, we realise that the bible is a literary work, some of it deriving from ancient people using oral tradition, which employs literary devices, including allegory. People such as Origen, who were familiar with Homer, realised this perfectly well. Allegory can convey a message powerfully and poetically, but you need to realise it for what it is.

There is nothing in evolution, or science more broadly, that denies God created Man, male and female. It is just a question of how He did it.

What about Jesus' genealogy that is traced back to Adam? Can a real person have Mythological people in his genealogy and still be considered an accurate and believable genealogy? Jesus has Adam, Noah, Abraham and King David in His line. At which point do you start having a real genealogy, and how can the reader know the difference? It is put there to show a very real pedigree.

 

[He has Risen!]

A fictional character states that he believes in a work of fiction.

It's hard to understand why anyone on this forum or elsewhere actually believes the bible.

Our dating method is based on the life of Jesus. He is no fictional character. If one were to deny the existence of Jesus then there is no amount of evidence that would convince you, because there is more evidence for His existence than any other person in antiquity.

 

[exchemist]

Our dating method is based on the life of Jesus. He is no fictional character. If one were to deny the existence of Jesus then there is no amount of evidence that would convince you, because there is more evidence for His existence than any other person in antiquity.

How absurd. We have actual coins with the heads of Roman emperors on them, inscriptions on actual buildings, and copious written records, from multiple independent sources about them. All we have for Jesus is the NT, written some time after the events depicted and written with an obvious agenda in mind, namely to convince the reader that he was the Messiah, plus the writings of Josephus.

 

[exchemist]

What about Jesus' genealogy that is traced back to Adam?

Irrelevant to the message of the gospels.

 

[He has Risen!]

How absurd. We have actual coins with the heads of Roman emperors on them, inscriptions on actual buildings, and copious written records, from multiple independent sources about them. All we have for Jesus is the NT, written some time after the events depicted and written with an obvious agenda in mind, namely to convince the reader that he was the Messiah, plus the writings of Josephus.

I remember a certain coin of Cesar that Jesus used as a reference which further points to the historical nature of His existence, Jesus could only use the coins that were around during His time on earth. As far as your believing that all we have are the Gospels and Josephus, you might want to do a little more research.

 

[exchemist]

I remember a certain coin of Cesar that Jesus used as a reference which further points to the historical nature of His existence, Jesus could only use the coins that were around during His time on earth. As far as your believing that all we have are the Gospels and Josephus, you might want to do a little more research.

No it just points to the author of the account being consistent about when he claimed Jesus lived. It is not separate evidence because is just comes from the NT just like everything else.

But I'm intrigued: what other sources are there, besides the NT and Josephus , that independently corroborate the historical existence of Jesus? Can you quote them or provide a link?

 

[He has Risen!]

Irrelevant to the message of the gospels.

We are talking about the Genealogy of Jesus being fictional or not. It includes men like Adam, Noah, Abraham and other historical ancient figures. You seem to like the early church father Origen, well I prefer to use men like Paul the apostle who wrote in Romans 9:5 that from the Jews we have the human ancestry of Christ, as well as in Romans 1:2-3 which states that the Holy Scriptures declared that the messiah according to His human nature would be a descendant of David. I also prefer to quote men like Mathew and Luke who were inspired to write down the genealogy of Jesus. So you can go on referring to Origen if you must, but you cannot use him as an excuse for you not believing the bible.

 

[He has Risen!]

No it just points to the author of the account being consistent about when he claimed Jesus lived. It is not separate evidence because is just comes from the NT just like everything else.

But I'm intrigued: what other sources are there, besides the NT and Josephus , that independently corroborate the historical existence of Jesus? Can you quote them or provide a link?

Here is a quick reference for you,
Church Fathers - Wikipedia

 

[SkepticThinker]

We are talking about the Genealogy of Jesus being fictional or not. It includes men like Adam, Noah, Abraham and other historical ancient figures. You seem to like the early church father Origen, well I prefer to use men like Paul the apostle who wrote in Romans 9:5 that from the Jews we have the human ancestry of Christ, as well as in Romans 1:2-3 which states that the Holy Scriptures declared that the messiah according to His human nature would be a descendant of David. I also prefer to quote men like Mathew and Luke who were inspired to write down the genealogy of Jesus. So you can go on referring to Origen if you must, but you cannot use him as an excuse for you not believing the bible.

Where did you get the idea that Moses, Adam and Abraham are historical figures?

 

[He has Risen!]

No it just points to the author of the account being consistent about when he claimed Jesus lived. It is not separate evidence because is just comes from the NT just like everything else.

But I'm intrigued: what other sources are there, besides the NT and Josephus , that independently corroborate the historical existence of Jesus? Can you quote them or provide a link?

You seem also to forget that the NT is 27 books written by at least 8 different people who lived at the time of Jesus and 2 of those books were written by Jesus own brothers. Now if Jesus was not a real historical person then how could He have real brothers?

 

[He has Risen!]

Where did you get the idea that Moses, Adam and Abraham are historical figures?

Why do you ask?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Why do you ask?

Because scholarly consensus is that they were not historical figures.

 

[He has Risen!]

Because scholarly consensus is that they were not historical figures.

What scholars? Please name them and reference their research. As far as I know, when you have a scholar like Luke who does his research, as he states at the beginning of his narrative, it is very credible. I can recommend some books if you are interested in the reliability of the bible.

 

[ecco]

Our dating method is based on the life of Jesus. He is no fictional character. If one were to deny the existence of Jesus then there is no amount of evidence that would convince you, because there is more evidence for His existence than any other person in antiquity.

Outside the Bible, there is practically none.

But perhaps you have sources no one else has.

 

[He has Risen!]

Outside the Bible, there is practically none.

But perhaps you have sources no one else has.

For more outside sources please click on the link on my post #253