Thoughts on the Fall of Adam

[URAVIP2ME]

Bring up FEAR is quite common with Christians since their entire brainwashing system is based upon FEAR mongering...........

Yipes! What is ' fear mongering ' about the Resurrection Hope - Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
False clergy have used fiery ' scare tactics ' on the flock of God, but that is Not what the Bible teaches.
KJV translated the word Gehenna into English as hell fire.
Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed forever Not burning forever.
Christians have No fear because it is the wicked will be destroyed forever as per Psalms 92:7.
Only those who bring ruin to Earth will be ruined - Revelation 11:18 B.
God will have Jesus come to the rescue, so Christians do Not have to fear the future but look forward to the future.
A coming future when mankind will have perfect human health as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I find at 1 Corinthians 2:16 that we do have the mind of Christ ( as recorded in Scripture ).
So, Jesus explains God to us, for this means everlasting life ( some in Heaven, most on Earth ) - John 17:3.
Jesus based his beliefs ( Not on thin air ) but on the old Hebrew Scriptures.
Jesus used logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures as the basis for his beliefs, his teachings.

You need a lot more than the book that you base your faith upon to show that to be the case. By those standards any religion with a holy book can claim that they prove that they are right.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm sorry. Did I speak Dutch?
I don't see any nonsense in the Bible, so it would not be possible to show you what you are requesting.

Then you do not understand how Genesis utterly fails, at least if you try to read it literally.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yipes! What is ' fear mongering ' about the Resurrection Hope - Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
False clergy have used fiery ' scare tactics ' on the flock of God, but that is Not what the Bible teaches.
KJV translated the word Gehenna into English as hell fire.
Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed forever Not burning forever.
Christians have No fear because it is the wicked will be destroyed forever as per Psalms 92:7.
Only those who bring ruin to Earth will be ruined - Revelation 11:18 B.
God will have Jesus come to the rescue, so Christians do Not have to fear the future but look forward to the future.
A coming future when mankind will have perfect human health as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.

The threat of hell is fear mongering. And there are quite a few verses that portray Hell as eternal punishment:

18 Bible verses about Hell, Punishment Of

 

[nPeace]

Yipes! What is ' fear mongering ' about the Resurrection Hope - Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
False clergy have used fiery ' scare tactics ' on the flock of God, but that is Not what the Bible teaches.
KJV translated the word Gehenna into English as hell fire.
Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed forever Not burning forever.
Christians have No fear because it is the wicked will be destroyed forever as per Psalms 92:7.
Only those who bring ruin to Earth will be ruined - Revelation 11:18 B.
God will have Jesus come to the rescue, so Christians do Not have to fear the future but look forward to the future.
A coming future when mankind will have perfect human health as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.

Right. Nor do they fear mortals, So "Yipes" is right.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Right. Nor do they fear mortals, So "Yipes" is right.

And you keep ignoring the threat of Hell. But there is no excuse for that punishment. Any rational person would realize that a punishment must fit the crime. Of course if God is omnipotent and omniscient then he is "at fault" for the evils of the world.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

And you keep ignoring the threat of Hell. But there is no excuse for that punishment. Any rational person would realize that a punishment must fit the crime.........

I wonder to which hell you are referring_______
The Bible's hell, or the religious-myth hell of burning forever just being taught as Scripture but is Not Scripture.
Biblical hell is just mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead.
Can anyone think of anyone righteous who died and went to hell _________
I find on the day righteous Jesus died that Jesus went to biblical hell as per Acts of the Apostles 2:27
Jesus and the OT teach sleep (Not pain) in death - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4 ; Isaiah 38:18.

So, there is No excuse for false clergy teaching a literal pain-filled burning forever and ever as being Scripture.
The 'dead know nothing' according to Ecclesiastes 9:5, so the dead can't know pain in any form.
It is false clergy who teach that ' threat of Hell (fire)' whereas the Bible teaches ' resurrection ' for the sleeping dead.
Resurrection as the prophet Daniel looked forward to according to Daniel 12:13.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I wonder to which hell you are referring_______
The Bible's hell, or the religious-myth hell of burning forever just being taught as Scripture but is Not Scripture.
Biblical hell is just mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead.
Can anyone think of anyone righteous who died and went to hell _________
I find on the day righteous Jesus died that Jesus went to biblical hell as per Acts of the Apostles 2:27
Jesus and the OT teach sleep (Not pain) in death - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4 ; Isaiah 38:18.

So, there is No excuse for false clergy teaching a literal pain-filled burning forever and ever as being Scripture.
The 'dead know nothing' according to Ecclesiastes 9:5, so the dead can't know pain in any form.
It is false clergy who teach that ' threat of Hell (fire)' whereas the Bible teaches ' resurrection ' for the sleeping dead.
Resurrection as the prophet Daniel looked forward to according to Daniel 12:13.

The Bible has some verses that indicate an end and some that do not. As always Christians pick and choose which part of the Bible that they will follow. You ignore the verses that say that hell is forever. I am not.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If you save Adam can you save Lucifer?

No.
Jesus will destroy Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B
Satan ends up in ' second death ' Revelation 21:8
So, ' second death ' is a fitting term for destruction.
Death as in the wicked will be ' destroyed forever ' as per Psalms 92:7
I find Adam could only sin on purpose, so neither Adam nor Satan/Lucifer can be saved.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Excuses huh? Lol, no sir, its you that makes excuses.

Oh geez...

When backed into a corner when getting called out on all of your lame excuses, all you can come up with is the childish game of na uh, it's YOU who makes up excuses, I'm rubber, you're glue, everything you say bounces off of ma and sticks to you. Grow up already. Oh wait, maybe you ARE just an immature little child, my bad.

I did my research too and my conclusions differ. Matter of fact, it boggles my mind that some people think they can read one article that they already agreed with and then say they did there research. Its incredable. Lets break down the RE in REsearch. It means KEEP RE searching.

Ah, and there it is, the old Christian tactic of keep on trying, and trying, and never stop trying to make your convoluted mythology "work" somehow.

Sorry, but I'm not driven by all that Christian FEAR mongering, so I can freely accept the fact that the jesus myth is nothing but a variance of several previous pagan myths that it was originally plagiarized from.

Just because an organization or religion needs funds so the people in it can serve full time dont mean the religion itself is wrong.

Another Christian tactic of avoidance. ALL religions are man made and designed to insert themselves in between man mad God, so that they look to MAN for spiritual answers, but they have NO true spiritual answers to give, they only want control over others, self-aggrandizement, and $$$$, LOTS of $$$$.

Ill backfire with this. Richard carier is a big proponent of the bible being myth, yet he makes money being a scholar and makes profits off his books he sells. Yet, you agree with him.

I give up, who is this "Richard Carier" and please provide any post of mine that states I agreed with him.

Although, that's just another tactic of avoidance and really has nothing to do with religions.

By your own standards, funds equel the idea is wrong, should mean to you Richard carrier is wrong. But, yea, YOUR NOT CONSISTENT.

Nope, your deceitfully twisting what I stated with your own distortion. Lame tactic of avoidance and deflection.

Yea, it is, and so is Jesus story vastly different then anyone elses.

But, your life story, just like Jesus, will have similarities with mine.

Me and you wer both born of a woman. We both drive a car. We both drink water. Oh my gosh, who plagurized who there? Me from you or you from me? You get the point.

Pathetic tactic of deflection.

But it's not my problem that your mind is so overcome with all that Christian FEAR mongering that you cannot clearly see the proof that the jesus myth is just a variance of many previous pagan man/"god" myths. with way too many striking similarities to be coincidence.

Oh YES I DID give references to back it up, LOOK AT THEM. Its not my fault you want to pretend i gave none. Thats your responsibility.

Ha. ha. ha...

No, you did not give any such bible verse to back up your wild claim of:

"seraphim is a flying fiery serpent or dragon like angel"

That's why you keep on refusing to present any such verse.

So come on, this is an open forum and everyone can see that you keep refusing to prove your false claim. Or at least be honest enough to admit that you either made it up or got such a silly tale from somewhere esle.

You totally missed the whole point with your dismissive additude.

Who? Are you accusing "ME" of being "dismissive"???!!!

Well I never!

I've had enough of this, you're DISMISSED!

God does speak to people at times. Most times God lets people figure things out using there own brains. Thats why he gave us one after all. Unfortanately, some people dont use it properly. Unlike myself of course.

Geez...

Enough of your avoidance and deflection already.

My comment was about the falseness of the Christian magic spirit claim. That ALL Christians are automatically given this "magic spirit" that guides them to the so called ultimate "truth" on what the bible means. And since YOU and all the other Christians have to "study" other people's BOOKS, make wild guesses, and none of you Christians can ever agree on much of anything in your bible, making it OBVIOUS that their is no such "magic spirit".

Now THAT is the topic, so STICK with that and stop with all this avoidance tactics.

 

[Axe Elf]

So, there is No excuse for false clergy teaching a literal pain-filled burning forever and ever as being Scripture.

You ignore the verses that say that hell is forever. I am not.

You're both right, to some extent. The Bible teaches that death is an unconscious sleep until the resurrection, at which time there will be a judgment and the wicked will be destroyed in the lake of fire, where only the devil, the beast, and the false prophet burn in torment forever.

"Then the devil who had led them astray [deceiving and seducing them] was hurled into the fiery lake of burning brimstone, where the beast and false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (through the ages of the ages).

"Then I saw a great white throne and the One Who was seated upon it, from Whose presence and from the sight of Whose face earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. I [also] saw the dead, great and small; they stood before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged (sentenced) by what they had done [their whole way of feeling and acting, their aims and endeavors] in accordance with what was recorded in the books. And the sea delivered up the dead who were in it, death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) surrendered the dead in them, and all were tried and their cases determined by what they had done [according to their motives, aims, and works].

"Then death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s [name] was not found recorded in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire." --Revelation 20:10-15 (Amplified Bible)

So for humans, the lake of fire is just the second death, the death of the soul (the first death being the death of the body)--it is not eternal torture, like it is for the devil, the beast, and the false prophet; it is just destruction (which of course also lasts forever).

 

[Jollybear]

Oh geez...

When backed into a corner when getting called out on all of your lame excuses, all you can come up with is the childish game of na uh, it's YOU who makes up excuses, I'm rubber, you're glue, everything you say bounces off of ma and sticks to you. Grow up already. Oh wait, maybe you ARE just an immature little child, my bad.



Ah, and there it is, the old Christian tactic of keep on trying, and trying, and never stop trying to make your convoluted mythology "work" somehow.

Sorry, but I'm not driven by all that Christian FEAR mongering, so I can freely accept the fact that the jesus myth is nothing but a variance of several previous pagan myths that it was originally plagiarized from.



Another Christian tactic of avoidance. ALL religions are man made and designed to insert themselves in between man mad God, so that they look to MAN for spiritual answers, but they have NO true spiritual answers to give, they only want control over others, self-aggrandizement, and $$$$, LOTS of $$$$.



I give up, who is this "Richard Carier" and please provide any post of mine that states I agreed with him.

Although, that's just another tactic of avoidance and really has nothing to do with religions.

You feel better now that you vomitted your nonsense?

After your mental stomach settles, would you like to have A REAL debate/discussion? If yes, great, if no, keep it movin.

 

[Axe Elf]

Oh geez...

I find myself in disagreement with a lot of what you say as well, so don't mistake my warning for concurrence, but I feel a humanitarian obligation to warn you that trying to have a rational discussion with @Jollybear is kind of like trying to teach algebra to chimps.

Carry on at the risk of your own patience and sanity.

 

[Jollybear]

I find myself in disagreement with a lot of what you say as well, so don't mistake my warning for concurrence, but I feel a humanitarian obligation to warn you that trying to have a rational discussion with @Jollybear is kind of like trying to teach algebra to chimps.

Carry on at the risk of your own patience and sanity.

This is pretty much how it is, if i agree with you, then im rational. If i disagree, then im irrational.

I disagree with THAT.

In fact, you said you wer going to give a more proper RATIONAL response to my last post with its pending questions after you shot out your frustrations. Im still waiting on that.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Another Christian tactic of avoidance. ALL religions are man made and designed to insert themselves in between man mad God, so that they look to MAN for spiritual answers, but they have NO true spiritual answers to give, they only want control over others, self-aggrandizement, and $$$$, LOTS of $$$$..

First of all, I find you are referring to Christendom ( so-called Christian but mostly in name alone )
That is why Jesus said MANY would come 'in his name ' but prove false at Matthew 7:21-23.
Christendom developed after the death of the first-century apostles as per Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30
Jesus told us that genuine ' wheat ' Christians would grow together with the fake 'weed/tares' Christians until the Harvest Time, or the soon coming 'Time of Separation' to take place on Earth as per Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.

The only time Jesus and the apostles 'passed the plate', so to speak, was when Jesus freely (without charge) fed thousands with bread and fish.
Jesus instructed at Matthew 10:8 to teach for 'free'. So, it is false clergy who charge or ask for $$$$.
False clergy are the ones who want the control and LOTS of $$$$$...
So, don't be surprised when the political suddenly turns on the religious world.
The wealth those false religions have amassed can look easy for the political taking.

What Jesus regulated was: free food, drink, weather phenomenon (calmed the stormy sea), sickness and death.
Jesus was giving us a small preview, or a coming attraction of what he will be doing on a grand-global international scale during his coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth. ALL without charge.

 

[Axe Elf]

This is pretty much how it is, if i agree with you, then im rational. If i disagree, then im irrational.

As usual, you have it backwards. If you were rational, then you'd agree with me. Because you are irrational, we find ourselves in disagreement.

 

[Jollybear]

As usual, you have it backwards. If you were rational, then you'd agree with me. Because you are irrational, we find ourselves in disagreement.

Ok, well, if you define rationality as in agreeing with you, then thats not going to happen. So, you need to counter and answer all my arguments, points and pending questions.

 

[Jollybear]

First of all, I find you are referring to Christendom ( so-called Christian but mostly in name alone )
That is why Jesus said MANY would come 'in his name ' but prove false at Matthew 7:21-23.
Christendom developed after the death of the first-century apostles as per Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30
Jesus told us that genuine ' wheat ' Christians would grow together with the fake 'weed/tares' Christians until the Harvest Time, or the soon coming 'Time of Separation' to take place on Earth as per Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.

The only time Jesus and the apostles 'passed the plate', so to speak, was when Jesus freely (without charge) fed thousands with bread and fish.
Jesus instructed at Matthew 10:8 to teach for 'free'. So, it is false clergy who charge or ask for $$$$.
False clergy are the ones who want the control and LOTS of $$$$$...
So, don't be surprised when the political suddenly turns on the religious world.
The wealth those false religions have amassed can look easy for the political taking.

What Jesus regulated was: free food, drink, weather phenomenon (calmed the stormy sea), sickness and death.
Jesus was giving us a small preview, or a coming attraction of what he will be doing on a grand-global international scale during his coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth. ALL without charge.

All your gonna get for a response from ancient soul is mocking redicule.

 

[Axe Elf]

Ok, well, if you define rationality as in agreeing with you

Again, you have it backwards. I do not define rationality as agreement with me. I define rationality thusly:

"the quality of being based on or in accordance with reason or logic"

A natural consequence of being rational is being in agreement with me, but agreement with me is the RESULT of rationality, not the CAUSE of rationality.

thats not going to happen.

Yes, I know that in your case, being rational is not going to happen.

So, you need to counter and answer all my arguments, points and pending questions.

I do not NEED to attempt to teach algebra to chimps. I sometimes CHOOSE to attempt it for my own amusement, the occupation of spare time, and for the edification of onlooking higher primates with an interest in algebra.

 

[Ancient Soul]

I find myself in disagreement with a lot of what you say as well, so don't mistake my warning for concurrence, but I feel a humanitarian obligation to warn you that trying to have a rational discussion with @Jollybear is kind of like trying to teach algebra to chimps.

Carry on at the risk of your own patience and sanity.

Thanks for the warning.

But I'm used to all kinds of tactics of avoidance, mis-direction, straw man arguments, denials, insults, lies, insane pseudo "facts", etc, from these Christians. As I've been on another Christian forum for many years, so know that's just they way they operate. Totally devoid of even a shred of honesty.

To me it's a challenge in trying to pin them down so even if they won't admit it, I can get them to see the falseness of their mythology. But ok, I do a LOT of forehead thumping at the absurdity of many of their responses, but an army helmet fixes it so I don't fracture my skull.