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Featured Thoughts on the Fall of Adam

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Katzpur, Dec 26, 2018.

  1. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Christians have some pretty strong beliefs concerning Adam and Eve and their role in getting mankind where we are today. How do you view Adam and Eve? As villains? Heros? Something in between? Did God know they were going to eat the forbidden fruit? What was His purpose in putting the tree there in the first place? What would have happened had Adam and Eve never eaten the forbidden fruit? What, if any, role would Jesus Christ have had in the world had the Fall never taken place?

    These are just a few of many questions we could consider in talking about the events as recorded in Genesis and which have such a bearing on our lives today. All respectful discussion welcome.
     
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  2. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    I've often wondered how Adam could sin if he didn't have any knowledge of Good and Evil in the first place?

    So what the heck was God even punishing Adam for?

    Adam didn't know any better because he didn't even know what good and evil was. =Oo
     
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  3. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Good question. I agree that Adam and Eve were unable to discern between good and evil until after they are the forbidden fruit. It wasn't called the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil for nothing, after all! Because they didn't have this knowledge until after they ate the fruit, I don't believe they can be said to have sinned.

    I believe it was for disobedience (which Adam did not perceive as sinful). If a mother tells a two-year-old child not to touch the hot stove top and the child does anyway -- I mean, the bright glowing red color is so enticing! -- is the child actually being sinful or just disobedient? I don't believe the child has the capability to understand that its a sin to not "honor thy father and thy mother" but he does know what "Don't touch!" means. God told Adam not to eat the fruit of one tree and He also told him what the consequences would be if he disobeyed. When Adam disobeyed, the consequences were real and they were just.
     
  4. Salvador

    Salvador Conscious Being

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    The Biblical story of creation is false, because as I've noted elsewhere in some other discussions about Christianity, Jesus's family tree has a time span of 77 generations listed between his generation and Adam whom the Bible claims was the "first man". Reference: (Luke 3:23-38) and Eve whom the Bible claims as the mother of all the living. (Genesis 3:20)

    However, the Australian aborigines have evidently been in Australia for over a thousand consecutive generations. Reference: Aboriginal Australians - Wikipedia

    There have been hundreds of generations of Native Americans between the time their common ancestry migrated from Asia until the time of Christ.

    Reference: Native Americans in the United States - Wikipedia

    Of course, the Bible is wrong; in fact, there were people prior to the 76th generation before Christ that allegedly was spawned by Adam and Eve.

    Adam as being the first man and perpetrator of original sin is an important premise of Christianity. If Adam wasn't the first man, then there isn't actually any "origin sin". Jesus supposedly died on the Cross to save humankind from "original sin". If there isn't any "original sin" from which to be saved, then Jesus Christ's death on the Cross is pretty pointless and meaningless. Evidently, there were many generations of people prior to the 76th generation before Christ whom the Bible claims was spawned by Adam. So then, Adam, Eve and original sin are mythological. There is neither any "first man" nor "original sin" throughout human evolution. Thus, Jesus Christ having died on the cross to save mankind from "original sin" is not reality but is rather mythological.
     
  5. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    These are great questions.

    No, not villains at all IMO. Won't answer all at this time, might get too lengthy. Certainly much will be personal viewpoints but a great possible interaction of thoughts.

    I think God knew that it was going to happen.

    Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    I think the potential is that God knew all along and had already made provision for the fall.

    your view?
     
  6. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    In as much as the all-knowing god of Christianity knew how the whole Garden of Eden episode was going to play out, A&E were mere pawns in his game, playing out the role god had assigned them. From the very outset they were destined to eat the apple and bring original sin upon everyone who followed.

    :heartbeat:What a thoughtful god.:heartbeat:

    .
     
    #6 Skwim, Dec 26, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2018
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  7. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Well, I don't want to give too lengthy an answer at this time either. If I post all of my thoughts at the outset, what would I say later on. :) I agree that the very fact that Jesus Christ had been chosen before the world was even created to be the Redeemer of mankind is pretty strong evidence to me that God knew how things were going to unfold. So that raises another question: Did He want things to go the way they went or was He just powerless to keep it from happening? To me, had He really not wanted it to happen (i.e. for Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit), it would have been the simplest thing imaginable for Him to keep it from happening. Obviously, He didn't need to put the tree in the garden in the first place, so why did He? I've asked this question of people before and have always received the same answer: He needed to give Adam and Eve their free will. Huh? Says who? Why on earth did He need to give them their free will if He knew it would only bring about misery? There's nothing in the Bible that says God had to do anything. If He'd wanted to make sure they remained in Eden forever more, He could have very simply made it happen. He probably could have even put the tree there. But not only did He put the tree there, He allowed the most deceitful, underhanded, unprincipled being ever created to tempt them with godhood! Seriously? Had He just put the tree there and told them not to eat its fruit, they likely wouldn't ever have even thought to disobey. But no. He let "the serpent" present them with what, in their ignorance of the complete picture, would have been a deal almost impossible to refuse. There's just no reason to think that there wasn't a much, much greater good to be derived from "the Fall" than most people stop to consider.
     
  8. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    LOL... I'm glad I only put one subject... otherwise we would have a compendium.

    Of course, we can only "guess" as to why since it doesn't say. But here is my take.

    1) Love has to be a free-will choice. IMO. Otherwise it is an obligation. My wife knows I love her by the fact that with thousands of choices, so to speak, I chose her. If she were the only person on earth, she could potentially say "Do you REALLY love me?"
    2) Was He powerless to keep it from happening? It depends on what one means. Should one stop every bad thing that happens? I think of the child who always gets rescued and never suffers consequences. Ends up in jail, usually. The fact that He fixes all things in the end, to me it says He is powerful enough.
    3) Why wouldn't He stop it? I believe that if He had He would be submitted to the Father of Lies. If God said, "I give you complete dominion over every living think" and then turns around and takes the dominion away, He would have lied (which He doesn't).
    3) Misery? Yes, there is misery. But, if eternity exists, what is a 100 year misery in light of eternity? A pimple of time. And, again, misery? Compare my misery with all the Jesus went through for me, my misery pales in comparison. I think Paul had it right when he said "light affliction".
    4) Scripture says Adam disobeyed, so I am not convinced it was a deal impossible to refuse. As I view it, Adam had authority and just decided not to exercise it. Like a child that is in control at the grocery store because the parent didn't want to exercise their authority.
    5) Tree? I always wondered, if you have all authority and the whole of the Garden, why is the Tree and issue? Back to a marriage, "Ken, you can't have other women". Should I scream "WHYYYYYYYYYY??????" Does that mean "It's an offer I can't refuse to have more women?" Or is it an issue of love.

    Don't think there is greater good to be derived from "the Fall" other than we all have the choice to love or not to love, and "that is the question". LOL Almost didn't want to say that it is so overused but, what the hay, I'm 64.
     
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  9. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    I've written quite a bit on this subject on these forums and I've come to the logical conclusion that I'm talking to the wind. Everyone, believer and unbeliever alike, have formed their opinions on the subject and care little what anyone, perhaps especially myself, have to say about it.

    I will answer your questions as best, and as briefly as I can.

    God didn't know they were going to eat, or touch, by the way, the fruit of the tree, but I'm pretty sure he knew it was a possibility.

    The purpose of the tree was to symbolize Jehovah's sovereignty. It was a reminder to Adam and his offspring, had he not sinned, that for a certain amount of time the Bible calls the seventh day of God's rest, that man needed the wisdom and guidance of their creator until they, like the angels before them, matured to the point where they were aware of this.

    What would have happened had they not eaten the fruit? That's the most interesting question you could ask, I personally think. Consider that the angel who had been appointed their protector, later known as Satan, had matured and knew better but still sinned. So eventually what would have happened if we, like David and then Paul alluded to, "entered into God's rest" and then sinned? I would presume that under those circumstances we would individually be destroyed rather than causing the death of all of those who would follow because we would, as a group, know better. For example, Satan sinned but only those angels who followed him are going to be destroyed, not all of them inheriting sin as we did. Of course Satan wasn't the first, nor had he offspring.

    Had they not eaten the sacrifice of Christ Jesus wouldn't have been necessary.
     
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  10. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    If God allows adam to sin, then shows him mercy, then adam now knows Gods love. You cant know grace, love, mercy without having broken an order.
     
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  11. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    My view is that the story is not meant to be taken literally but symbolically. This is how I approach it. This might seem odd, weird even, but it works for me:

    As humans evolved, they were once ignorant of polarities of right and wrong, good and evil because their intellects were not evolved enough. At some point as evolution continued, the intellect became aware of polarities. The former state of ignorance was ended and they were now troubled by such differences.

    This development was thus accompanied by new and stronger emotions around distinguishing and making moral judgements about what they should do and what they fail to do.

    Their former state of ignorant happiness was now replaced by intellectual knowledge and the emotions that accompanied that state. They had "left the Garden".

    The snake and the apple are therefore symbols of the force of evolution.
     
  12. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Sorry, just trying to sort the NONSENSE
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    I hope there is something out there that is smarter than me.

    I've grown more open to an Alien based creation as part of the story. I think the most vital part of belief is that we seek to please the Creator, and he says to love "Him" and to love each other. Multi denominational arguments about the minutiae of scriptures are mostly unimportant, IMHO. As time passes, certain elements of the ancient history keep reasserting themselves.

    It seems obvious that sentient life has been around here on Earth for around 200,000 years, and there are so many ancient cultural artifacts that we have "so far" been unable to reverse engineer.

    So, when did the Adam and Eve creation happen? Did it happen before or after these civilizations that occupy pre-history? So far, Archeologists seem intent upon the idea that all this happened around 12,000 or so years ago. What was the lesson of the Creation and Adam and Eve? Does the "War in the Heavens?" occupy that unexplained time? I've seen no admonishment to avoid trying to explore our pre-history.

    In many Christian denominations I've experienced, their Creation theology centers around Eve's weakness and gullibility causes her to be disobedient and sin FIRST. At times, it seems that Adam's disobedience is almost secondary. And, since Creation, some men have continued to carry that punitive phase on for how many thousand years? I like the Mormon take that it was necessary for humans to progress.

    I find it telling that had it not been for a Mormon family, I would have spent Christmas alone. A lot of thinking to do. As far as me and their leadership go, "I'm not ready to make nice."
     
  13. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    By "have any knowledge of" I assume you mean he had not witnessed nor experienced nor practiced anything evil, but you have to ask yourself at the same time . . . did God? Adam had 1 rule and 2 requirements. Don't bother the tree (eat the fruit or touch the tree), fill and subdue the Earth.

    What other good and evil was there to know?

    Because Satan had raised the question of whether or not God lied. It raised the issue, not only before all men to follow Adam but the myriads of angels as well, who were watching and who had also been created by Jehovah, namely; can they survive without God? Is the creator, Jehovah, rightfully sovereign? Or can mankind make up their minds what is good and what is bad for themselves, in their immature state without destroying themselves?

    Yes he did. God told him. Don't eat this.
     
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  14. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    They gained no knowledge. Have you ever read in older translations where the homosexuals of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to "get to know" the angels who accompanied Lot? This term, "getting to know" is translated "have sexual intercourse with" in later translations because the knowledge here isn't general knowledge it's intimate knowledge, as in having sex. Here's what the Jerusalem Bible says about the tree of knowledge.

    “This knowledge is a privilege which God reserves to himself and which man, by sinning, is to lay hands on, Genesis 3:5, Genesis 3:22. Hence it does not mean omniscience, which fallen man does not possess; nor is it moral discrimination, for unfallen man already had it and God could not refuse it to a rational being. It is the power of deciding for himself what is good and what is evil and of acting accordingly, a claim to complete moral independence by which man refuses to recognise his status as a created being. The first sin was an attack on God’s sovereignty, a sin of pride.”

    But that's what sin is. It literally means "miss" as in to miss the mark or goal set by someone. If you say meet me at the courthouse at 9:00 A.M. and I'm not there then I've sinned against you. It doesn't matter whether or not I know why you want me to be there.

    On this I agree.
     
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  15. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    There is so much wrong with the premise to your conclusion that the Bible is false. First of all the Aboriginal and Native Americans were not contemplating the number of one man, as the verses in the Bible dealing with Jesus were. There were myriads of people listed in the Jewish chronologies, not all of them had anything to do with Jesus. Secondly when establishing the claim of Jesus' chronology not every single person in that line needed to be named. Only a few were necessary. Another point of consideration is that before the flood people, like Adam, could live up to over 900 years. Thirdly, and unrelated to chronology, just as an aside, Jesus didn't die on a cross, he died on a Hebrew torture stake. A simple upright pole. The cross didn't infiltrate Christianity until Constantine.

    The only thing you got right in your post was that if Adam and original sin wasn't real then there would have been no need for a Messiah to deliver us from that sin.
     
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  16. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    The foundation of the world happened after Adam had sinned.

    The King James Version reads the latter portion of 2 Timothy 1:9 as “before the world began.” Various translations differ: YLT "Before the time of the ages" / NIV "before the beginning of time." / Douay-Rheims "before the times of the world." / ESV "before the ages began." What exactly does this term mean? Most people tend to think of it incorrectly as being before the creation of earth and man, meaning that all since then had been foreknown by God. That isn’t the case at all.

    The Greek term katabole is used, and literally means a casting or laying down. For example, throwing down a seed. At Hebrews 11:11 the term is applied to Sarah's being given the gift to "conceive" at a late age.

    At Luke 11:50-51 Jesus gives us insight on when this term, the founding of the world, began. From the blood of Abel. Abel, of course, was the offspring of Adam and Eve, so this time began when the first human couple conceived and began the race of mankind.

    The word "world" is translated from the Greek kosmos, which has various meanings. 1. Humankind as a whole. 2. The structure of the human circumstances into which one is born and lives and 3. The masses of humankind apart from God's servants.

    So, in a sense we are all living in the same period as Abel, though he towards it’s beginning and we towards it’s conclusion. The founding of the world, in this sense, then, would be the period of time after Adam’s sin but before Adam and Eve conceived. This is the period of time in which God began to allow for the possibility of salvation from the harmful effects of Adam’s sin. Genesis 3:15, the first prophecy of the Bible, is often overlooked as the beginning of all of this because it is often viewed as strictly a pronouncement upon Adam and Eve and the Serpent. When actually it is the first indication that there would be a division of, in a sense of the word, worlds. Those siding with Satan’s seed; his “offspring” so to speak and those of Jehovah’s seed from the woman, his earthly organization of faithful followers who were proved to be rightly disposed or ordained as a class of people from that moment until the conclusion of the world. Put simply, there would be those for Jehovah and those against.

    The same would apply to Ephesians 1:4-5 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 as with 2 Timothy 1:9
     
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  17. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Do you have to commit evil to know good and evil?
     
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  18. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    I guess that would be another perspective. I'm not sure that was the foundation, it sounded pretty solid before he sinned :)
     
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  19. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    Sorry, Ken, I was in a hurry when I posted that and edited it to post the explanation.
     
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  20. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    There's no basis for that argument. It isn't Biblical.
     
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