Do Baha'i believe Jesus or the Holy Spirit can cure the Leper?

[oldbadger]

There is merit of the Spiritual aspects of healing. It has its place, It will not heal broken bones.

That reads as if Bahai or you look upon a person's mental state or health as 'spiritual'
I'm never ever going to get a clear picture about what 'spirits' are and/or 'spiritual' from Bahai, it seems to me.

We are told not to use our spirituality in this immature state of being. We are unaware of what we are doing and we can not determine what is good and what is not.

Regards Tony

That cannot be right. Surely?
I've always believed that Assemblies and Houses of Justice would be able to determine what is good or not through this 'spiritual communication or awareness'?

 

[oldbadger]

I will respect the teachings of Baha'u'llah with this request. As this is the internet, I can not control what has been previoisly postsed.?

OK...... so any miracles enacted by Bahauallah cannot be or should not be published. OK...... so a good idea might be to simply state that he never enacted any?

I was suggesting as our spiritual and science abilities advance, it may be seen how things we are now are unaware of, but then discover, have the power to heal. Abilities that all the Manifestestion posess, but see humanity are not ready to use. Baha'u'llah has said many things could not be disclosed, as we were not ready. I see our nuclear capabilities were a very good lesson we need for the future.

Oh Tony.......... how many times have I heard about Bahai's entry into the World being the reason for our wonderful advances in technology, and now you've chucked 'nuclear capabilities' ....... deadly bombs?.... in to the conversation.

We are Spiritual beings. We are shown by the Messengers how to develop our spirituality. The lives of the Messengers are the best example. In this day We were gifted Abdul'baha and we are asked to look at Him, follow his example and be as He was. There has been no better gift to understand what it is to be spiritual than Abdul'baha.

I have read some very poor reports of Abdul Baha's behaviour on occasions, Tony! Maybe @spirit_of_dawn, could confirm or correct these?

Humans, some, do seem to be able to connect with spirits, something which Bahai won't endorse or support....... so the Bahai concept of spirituality is strange to me. Nice people, generous people, brave people, they are just those adjectives, unless forms of nastiness are spiritual as well?

Of course that is my view on the subject.

Fair enough.......

It would have many very significant metephors. Things like 40 days and 40 nights. 40 is significant in many Biblical events and Bahá’u’lláh suffered 40 years of imprisonment, torture and exile. Daniel had a prophecy about this.

Why not just try:- When the Baptist was arrested by Antipas's forces the following disp[ersed and fled., mostly in to the Eastern wastelands, and since Jesus was there he also legged it into the deserted areas, where he lay in hiding..... for 40 days. His temptation was to give it all up, but he didn't, he carried the mission on....

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Baha’u’llah didn’t like talk of miracles because it degraded the Cause of God to a circus. When He was asked by the religious leaders to perform a miracle to prove His validity as a Manifestation He agreed in condition they accept Him once He performed it.

Bahá’u’lláh replied, “Although you have no right to ask this, for God should test His creatures, and they should not test God, still I allow and accept this request. But the Cause of God is not a theatrical display that is presented every hour, of which some new diversion may be asked for every day. If it were thus, the Cause of God would become mere child’s play.

In the end they couldn’t decide on a miracle and didn’t push the issue further because of fear He would produce it.

The fact He agreed to perform any miracle of their choosing surprised those who challenged Him when He agreed to accept their demand.

The ulamas must, therefore, assemble, and, with one accord, choose one miracle, and write that, after the performance of this miracle they will no longer entertain doubts about Me, and that all will acknowledge and confess the truth of My Cause. Let them seal this paper, and bring it to Me. This must be the accepted criterion: if the miracle is performed, no doubt will remain for them; and if not, We shall be convicted of imposture.”

Baha’u’llah, being a Manifestation of God knew He could perform anything they asked so was just up to them to choose and they got scared and backed off.

When Moses split the sea, when Jesus cured the leper and blind, their religions did not degrade to circuses or child's play as you claim. On the contrary these were percieved as clear signs that they were truthful in their claims. This is how I see it, since Baha'u'llah couldn't perform miracles he resorted to two things:

1- Deny the miracles of other Prophets and label them as symbolic, so no one would expect him to perform miracles.
2- Make up and spread a story about challenging the religious leaders to a miracle, and then claim they chickened out.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

When Moses split the sea, when Jesus cured the leper and blind, their religions did not degrade to circuses or child's play as you claim. On the contrary these were percieved as clear signs that they were truthful in their claims. This is how I see it, since Baha'u'llah couldn't perform miracles he resorted to two things:

1- Deny the miracles of other Prophets and label them as symbolic, so no one would expect him to perform miracles.
2- Make up and spread a story about challenging the religious leaders to a miracle, and then claim they chickened out.

1) Many people saw those recorded miracles who still did not accept Jesus, if they are decisive proof, why were they not proof to them?

2) This is a blog about that incident as reported by Abdul'baha, as He was an eye witness. It will be verified as true.

Baha'i Stories: Baha’u’llah vindicating the miracles of all the Prophets

Regards Tony

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

1) Many people saw those recorded miracles who still did not accept Jesus, if they are decisive proof, why were they not proof to them?

2) This is a blog about that incident as reported by Abdul'baha, as He was an eye witness. It will be verified as true.

Baha'i Stories: Baha’u’llah vindicating the miracles of all the Prophets

Regards Tony

1- Because people choose to not believe for a variety of reasons.
2- That is a Baha'i claim. Call me when you have independent non-Baha'i sources reporting on the incident.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That reads as if Bahai or you look upon a person's mental state or health as 'spiritual'
I'm never ever going to get a clear picture about what 'spirits' are and/or 'spiritual' from Bahai, it seems to me.

I see spiritual as living a life of virtues, strong in Faith that by doing so it will change hearts. Thus it is connecting with the source of all Good, which is God.

This was sent to me by a friend from America today, in a conversation we were having, to me this is a how of spiritual strength.

"I have met several Bahais who spent years in prison, and or were tortured, or watched others killed for their Baha'i beliefs, rather than deny their Faith.
The aunt of the mother of my children and her own little children were imprisoned as a means to get to her husband, who was on the last National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of Iran....... the previous two Assemlies of 9 members each were all executed, except for one or two absent when the Revolutionary Guard raided their meetings.
One night they came to her, saying: "If by tomorrow you don't tell us where your husband is, we kill your children!!"

That night she had a dream in which Abdul Baha (the son of Baha'u'llah) appeared, assuring her that all is in God's hands. In the morning, they came and renewed their threat, but her Faith was so strong....She said: "Do as you wish. I cannot tell you where he is."
Unable to break her will, they released them. They fled over the mountains to Pakistan and were in a refugee camp for two years. The daughter was so Ill she lost her hair. Finally their family here gained their freedom and they came to me in US, and regained their health. The son became a doctor and the girl a dentist."

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

I see spiritual as living a life of virtues, strong in Faith that by doing so it will change hearts. Thus it is connecting with the source of all Good, which is God.

OK........ so you don't believe in bad spirits.
For myself, I believe that Spirits can be good or bad, positive or negative, etc..... and the word 'Spiritual' means 'of the spirits'........ Living a life of virtues is 'virtuous', surely?

This was sent to me by a friend from America today, in a conversation we were having, to me this is a how of spiritual strength.

"I have met several Bahais who spent years in prison, and or were tortured, or watched others killed for their Baha'i beliefs, rather than deny their Faith.
The aunt of the mother of my children and her own little children were imprisoned as a means to get to her husband, who was on the last National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of Iran....... the previous two Assemlies of 9 members each were all executed, except for one or two absent when the Revolutionary Guard raided their meetings.
One night they came to her, saying: "If by tomorrow you don't tell us where your husband is, we kill your children!!"

What years were these?
I'm sure that you know that private meetings of more than a very few people (in Iran) were illegal for a time?
I'm sad to hear of any executions......

That night she had a dream in which Abdul Baha (the son of Baha'u'llah) appeared, assuring her that all is in God's hands. In the morning, they came and renewed their threat, but her Faith was so strong....She said: "Do as you wish. I cannot tell you where he is."
Unable to break her will, they released them.

Tony......... The Iranian officials released them.... to their freedom. Don't make it sound like this was a bad action. Please...

They fled over the mountains to Pakistan and were in a refugee camp for two years. The daughter was so Ill she lost her hair. Finally their family here gained their freedom and they came to me in US, and regained their health. The son became a doctor and the girl a dentist."

Regards Tony

This was a tough time for them, and it's good to hear that an Islamic country took them in without harm for two years.

 

[oldbadger]

I see spiritual as living a life of virtues, strong in Faith that by doing so it will change hearts. Thus it is connecting with the source of all Good, which is God.

This was sent to me by a friend from America today, in a conversation we were having, to me this is a how of spiritual strength.

"I have met several Bahais who spent years in prison, and or were tortured, or watched others killed for their Baha'i beliefs, rather than deny their Faith.
The aunt of the mother of my children and her own little children were imprisoned as a means to get to her husband, who was on the last National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of Iran....... the previous two Assemlies of 9 members each were all executed, except for one or two absent when the Revolutionary Guard raided their meetings.
One night they came to her, saying: "If by tomorrow you don't tell us where your husband is, we kill your children!!"

That night she had a dream in which Abdul Baha (the son of Baha'u'llah) appeared, assuring her that all is in God's hands. In the morning, they came and renewed their threat, but her Faith was so strong....She said: "Do as you wish. I cannot tell you where he is."
Unable to break her will, they released them. They fled over the mountains to Pakistan and were in a refugee camp for two years. The daughter was so Ill she lost her hair. Finally their family here gained their freedom and they came to me in US, and regained their health. The son became a doctor and the girl a dentist."

Regards Tony

Tony, I needed to come back to your post.
In the years during and after the Iranian revolution, the revolutionary courts and judges sent thousands of Iranians to their executions. It was a very dangerous time for almost everybody and the link:-
Casualties of the Iranian Revolution - Wikipedia
.......... clearly shows how many groups and individuals were casualties
There were 906 executions in the first 6 months of 81, and the main victim groups are shown:-
.Fedayins and Kurds as well as Tudeh, National Front, and Shariatmadari supporters. ... Thus the toll taken among those who had participated in the revolution was far greater than that of royalists. This revolution — like others — had devoured its own children.

This was a very dangerous time, and I am sad to read that Bahais met in secret groups at this time.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

OK........ so you don't believe in bad spirits.

No, not correct

It is a state of our spirit/souls, as nearness and remoteness from God determines the journey we take.

Nearness = Good
Remoteness = Bad

It is our choice as to where our Spirit resides.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This was a very dangerous time, and I am sad to read that Bahais met in secret groups at this time.

I am sad for those that impart the injustice.

Lets put the blame where the blame is justly deserved.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

but it does seem that Bahai beliefs are thoroughly mixed up, because to claim (as I think that you have) that Jesus could carry out Divine Miracles on the one hand yet could not resurrect self after death is a jumble.

I appreciate you are a deist and what that means.

Jesus bringing Himself to life three days after being put to death is a major step up from merely healing another from sickness. Ascending through the stratosphere to reach the heavens is another step up again. The problem is, heaven isn’t in outer space. That belief relies on a redundant cosmology. That’s the deal breaker.

 

[oldbadger]

I am sad for those that impart the injustice.

Lets put the blame where the blame is justly deserved.

Regards Tony

The Shah's regime was not a just regime, Tony. Revolutions are crazy times, and thousands die. I'm thinking of the French Revolution just now, but here are some reports about the victims of the Iranian revolution.:-

The number who lost their lives will probably never be known with certainty. Amnesty International documented 2,946 executions in the 12 months following Bani-Sadr's impeachment. A list compiled the following year by the Mojahedin-e Khalq cited 7,746 persons who had lost their lives through executions, in street battles, or under torture in the short period from June 1981 to September 1983.[33]

According to historian Ervand Abrahamian, revolutionary courts executed more than 8000 opponents between June 1981 and June 1985. These were mainly members of the Mojahedin-e Khalq,



We recently watched the film 'Argo', well worth seeing.....
I'm sad to hear of your friend's bad times.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Shah's regime was not a just regime, Tony.

It continues today. Let's just ask for justice for all and not an opressive man dominated justice.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

I appreciate you are a deist and what that means.

Jesus bringing Himself to life three days after being put to death is a major step up from merely healing another from sickness. Ascending through the stratosphere to reach the heavens is another step up again. The problem is, heaven isn’t in outer space. That belief relies on a redundant cosmology. That’s the deal breaker.

Having studied historical Jesus for a long time, I have no problem with any of the above.

I happen to believe that Pilate could either have substituted a well bloodied and unidentifiable Jesus Son-of-the-Father (Jesus Barabbas) for Jesus Son-of-Man (Yeshua BarYosef) or arranged with Joseph of A for him to be taken down alive, revived and got away. Pilate did not want Jesus killed, was probably quite pleased with the Temple trouble that he caused..... the Sanhedrin and Temple were a total pain to him.

This could explain how Jesus was seen beside Genesaret in Galilee not long afterwards and identified by several persons. There are tales that he got clear away to 'France', or got clear away to Kashmir, or got clear away to Cornwall (which traded with Tyre and Sidon ports in exchanges for tin.) The Kasmir or Cornwall routes fit more closely with the Galilee sightings.

And so folks who disbelieve in a resurrection, Trinity, Divine miracles, don't cause me any difficulty at all.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

It continues today. Let's just ask for justice for all and not an opressive man dominated justice.

Regards Tony

Yes I want justice for all too. However, Baha'is need to stop picking ONLY on Iran and Yemen. It certainly gives the impression that you are dishonest in your claims. How about Baha'is start lobbying for justice in Palestine or all those people and groups that have been victimized by Israel and the US, right? Then we can start talking.

 

[oldbadger]

It continues today.

Regards Tony

Injustice pervades the whole World Tony, as you no doubt know.

Not too long ago a wife seeking justice outside a Pakistan Court was caught and murdered by her husband while Court Guards and police looked on........ I don't think any further action was taken. That's the country that saved your friends' family.

But then, we did some bad things in Iraq when we invaded.... wherever there are humans there is a degree of badness.

But if there are any more revolutions in any more countries, I just hope that small groups of people, any groups of any people!... will keep their heads down, not meet in banned numbers, and certainly not demonstrate.... things like that.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes I want justice for all too. However, Baha'is need to stop picking ONLY on Iran and Yemen. It certainly gives the impression that you are dishonest in your claims. How about Baha'is start lobbying for justice in Palestine or all those people and groups that have been victimized by Israel and the US, right? Then we can start talking.

Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia are having a bad time just now, in fact small groups and provinces all around are having bad times. I remember the Bosnia genocide and the murder of Muslims in Burma/Cambodia just now.

You are right..... none should be forgotten...

 

[oldbadger]

I appreciate you are a deist and what that means.

Jesus bringing Himself to life three days after being put to death is a major step up from merely healing another from sickness.

True....
When I read some of Jesus's healings I smile, or grin, or laugh out loud.... not because I don't believe the stories, but because they seem so absolutely obviously truthful to me.

Jesus was one amazingly 'knowing' person, but of course that attitude upsets some Christians......... I must to bed before I get set upon by several religions all at once.


Good Night, All.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes I want justice for all too. However, Baha'is need to stop picking ONLY on Iran and Yemen. It certainly gives the impression that you are dishonest in your claims. How about Baha'is start lobbying for justice in Palestine or all those people and groups that have been victimized by Israel and the US, right? Then we can start talking.

That is the Message given by Baha'u'llah. Justice for all people, elimination of all prejudices, which includes race and religion.

I am happy that you consider this is required.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

None of us were first hand witnesses of the miracles described in the Gospels. In fact, none of the gospel writers may have been either. Christians and Muslims can claim miracles until they are blue in the face. It makes little difference as it’s a weak argument for Divine Powers.

The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.

But in the Holy Books an especial terminology is employed, and for the Manifestations these miracles and wonderful signs have no importance. They do not even wish to mention them. For if we consider miracles a great proof, they are still only proofs and arguments for those who are present when they are performed, and not for those who are absent.

For example, if we relate to a seeker, a stranger to Moses and Christ, marvelous signs, he will deny them and will say: “Wonderful signs are also continually related of false gods by the testimony of many people, and they are affirmed in the Books. The Brahmans have written a book about wonderful prodigies from Brahma.” He will also say: “How can we know that the Jews and the Christians speak the truth, and that the Brahmans tell a lie? For both are generally admitted traditions, which are collected in books, and may be supposed to be true or false.” The same may be said of other religions: if one is true, all are true; if one is accepted, all must be accepted. Therefore, miracles are not a proof. For if they are proofs for those who are present, they fail as proofs to those who are absent.

But in the day of the Manifestation the people with insight see that all the conditions of the Manifestation are miracles, for They are superior to all others, and this alone is an absolute miracle. Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, although outwardly He was crucified. Now this is a veritable miracle which can never be denied. There is no need of any other proof of the truth of Christ.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 100-102

If the power is "beyond" nature, how is science going to prove or disprove it?

Then it says that manifestations "are superior to all others"? I still don't see how Moses, Abraham, Adam and any other person in the Jewish Bible was superior than any one else. There only strength was when it came to crunch time, most of them turned to their God.

Finally, what did Jesus conquer? Christians say he conquered death. But Baha'is don't believe that. And, the religion started based on his actions and teachings, makes the miracles of upmost importance... and one of the greatest miracles, if not the greatest, was his resurrection. Something that the Baha'is say never happened. But Trinitarian Christians trust in the power of their three-part God, because he is a miracle worker,and can heal them along with saving them. I've seen healings and I've seen lives changed because those people believed in the power of Jesus to perform miracles, even now. All in their heads? Maybe. What do you think?