Islam belief, Noah, the Great Flood and Science. Coherent or contradictory?

[shunyadragon]

This is obviously a response to the other thread I created where I showed Baha'u'llah believes the flood is real and it had encompassed all earth and destroyed everything.

Unfortunately if our Baha'i friend here has paid more attention to the writings of Baha'u'llah he would have noticed that Baha'u'llah also believed that Noah had lived for at least 950 years:

“Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call.” (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i Iqan)​

And as usual, faced with a dilemma, his successor without providing any meaningless argument contradicts the founder and claims:

"The years of Noah are not years as we count them, and as our teachings do not state that this reference to years means His dispensation, we cannot interpret it this way." (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, November 25, 1950; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 1659)
​

I have rarely seen a statement in Baha'i scripture that has not been contradicted by one or all the leaders.

The Baha'i writings do not consider the deluge of Noah a literal flood, nor the age of Noah as 950 years. The deluge is symbolic of the new Manifestation of God cleansing the earth of the old, and the age of Noah is a length of time not measured in our years as referenced by Abul'baha, and Shogi Effendi.

From: Deluge Myths, Noah’s Ark and the Renewal of Religion

The Baha’i teachings indicate that the Ark riding the waves of a deluge refers directly to the coming of a new prophet of God, and the new principles and laws that prophet brings. Symbolically, the flood washes away the broken traces of the old religious dispensation; and remakes the Earth for the appearance of the new one, just as the spring rains and floods inundate the land and sweep the detritus of winter out to sea. As a symbol of God’s teachings and covenant, the Ark represents the salvation of the people in each era, and appears throughout the Baha’i writings, used in many different ways. Here, Baha’u’llah uses the symbol of the ark to stand for divine guidance, and guiding star in the heavens to stand for the dawning of a new light in that “true and exalted Morn:”

And now, concerning His words: “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven.” By these words it is meant that when the sun of the heavenly teachings hath been eclipsed, the stars of the divinely-established laws have fallen, and the moon of true knowledge — the educator of mankind — hath been obscured; when the standards of guidance and felicity have been reversed, and the morn of truth and righteousness hath sunk in night, then shall the sign of the Son of man appear in heaven. By “heaven” is meant the visible heaven, inasmuch as when the hour draweth nigh on which the Day-star of the heaven of justice shall be made manifest, and the Ark of divine guidance shall sail upon the sea of glory, a star will appear in the heaven, heralding unto its people the advent of that most great light. In like manner, in the invisible heaven a star shall be made manifest who, unto the peoples of the earth, shall act as a harbinger of the break of that true and exalted Morn. – Baha’u’llah, The Book of Certitude, pp. 61-62.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yea, the mythology view i definitely dont buy that one.

One time as i was debating/discussing with a atheist, he wondered how i would interprete the bible if i wer an atheist.

I told him, i would NOT interprete it as mythology (as in fan fiction). I would interprete it as history, that had misunderstood natural phenomona that the ancients termed miraculous.

But, im not an atheist. But, even still, i think God can manipulate natural phenomena to do his will. And sometimes, he just suspends natural law outright.

There is enough archeological finds to astablish to my satisfaction that the OT and NT are history.

This is the Flood story as told by the Hopi's, a native people that live in Northeast Arizona. The First World was destroyed by fire. The Second by ice, and this is what happened to the Third World...

After a long period of recovery the Third World was created and the people were once again allowed to emerge and again they multiplied, this time creating great cities, and, again, the people became more involved in earthly, material pursuits than in praising and relating to the Creator. Still a few people clung to the ways of the Creator. The people became so corrupt they even made flying machines in which they could attack one another. This time the just were saved from destruction by Spider Woman, who sealed them in hollow reeds with food and water, and the Third World was destroyed by a huge flood.​

Here is a definition of a Myth: a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.

The Hopi's or the Jews and several ancient cultures have their flood stories. They all can't be "historically" accurate and true. So what is the purpose of these stories? In the Flood stories, to me, it is to tell people that to continue to do evil and to disobey the things their Deity has told them to do will result in their destruction. But, I do believe that if the people only see it as "myth", and not as something that really happened, then those people might stop trusting in the things that their Deity told them to do. 'Cause, they might start thinking that their Deity might be only a myth too.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Tora mentioned that Noah lived 950 years as well.

What if the food was better before the flood? We see that the people start living lesser and lesser. What if a certain food that they were eating wasn't there anymore after the flood?

Jesus Christ raised dead people as a sign. And healed the blind. And healed lepers. What if it is true? What if it's not allegorical? Everything is possible with Gods Power after all?

Where does a person stop making things "symbolic" and "allegorical"? Creation? Allegory. The Flood? Allegory. Satan? Allegory. Jesus rising from the dead? Allegory. God???

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

The Baha'i writings do not consider the deluge of Noah a literal flood, nor the age of Noah as 950 years. The deluge is symbolic of the new Manifestation of God cleansing the earth of the old, and the age of Noah is a length of time not measured in our years as referenced by Abul'baha, and Shogi Effendi.

From: Deluge Myths, Noah’s Ark and the Renewal of Religion

The Baha’i teachings indicate that the Ark riding the waves of a deluge refers directly to the coming of a new prophet of God, and the new principles and laws that prophet brings. Symbolically, the flood washes away the broken traces of the old religious dispensation; and remakes the Earth for the appearance of the new one, just as the spring rains and floods inundate the land and sweep the detritus of winter out to sea. As a symbol of God’s teachings and covenant, the Ark represents the salvation of the people in each era, and appears throughout the Baha’i writings, used in many different ways. Here, Baha’u’llah uses the symbol of the ark to stand for divine guidance, and guiding star in the heavens to stand for the dawning of a new light in that “true and exalted Morn:”

And now, concerning His words: “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven.” By these words it is meant that when the sun of the heavenly teachings hath been eclipsed, the stars of the divinely-established laws have fallen, and the moon of true knowledge — the educator of mankind — hath been obscured; when the standards of guidance and felicity have been reversed, and the morn of truth and righteousness hath sunk in night, then shall the sign of the Son of man appear in heaven. By “heaven” is meant the visible heaven, inasmuch as when the hour draweth nigh on which the Day-star of the heaven of justice shall be made manifest, and the Ark of divine guidance shall sail upon the sea of glory, a star will appear in the heaven, heralding unto its people the advent of that most great light. In like manner, in the invisible heaven a star shall be made manifest who, unto the peoples of the earth, shall act as a harbinger of the break of that true and exalted Morn. – Baha’u’llah, The Book of Certitude, pp. 61-62.

No matter how you try to justify it, Baha'u'llah states in the clearest manner that he believes the flood took over all of earth and destroyed everything and Noah live for 950 years.

 

[shunyadragon]

This is the Flood story as told by the Hopi's, a native people that live in Northeast Arizona. The First World was destroyed by fire. The Second by ice, and this is what happened to the Third World...

After a long period of recovery the Third World was created and the people were once again allowed to emerge and again they multiplied, this time creating great cities, and, again, the people became more involved in earthly, material pursuits than in praising and relating to the Creator. Still a few people clung to the ways of the Creator. The people became so corrupt they even made flying machines in which they could attack one another. This time the just were saved from destruction by Spider Woman, who sealed them in hollow reeds with food and water, and the Third World was destroyed by a huge flood.​

Here is a definition of a Myth: a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.

The Hopi's or the Jews and several ancient cultures have their flood stories. They all can't be "historically" accurate and true. So what is the purpose of these stories? In the Flood stories, to me, it is to tell people that to continue to do evil and to disobey the things their Deity has told them to do will result in their destruction. But, I do believe that if the people only see it as "myth", and not as something that really happened, then those people might stop trusting in the things that their Deity told them to do. 'Cause, they might start thinking that their Deity might be only a myth too.

Many of the stories refer to specific catastrophic regional floods like the Chinese records referring to the catastrophic flood of the Huang He, and Yellow River that have been confirmed by geologic investigations. In Japan and among the Northwestern Native Americans they were Tsunamis.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and all true religions are from the same God so you'd expect to see more or less the same concepts. Judaism has as many differences with Islam as it has similarities. For example, the story of Lot being intoxicated by his daughters and then raped by them, or stories of other Prophets committing adultery are categorically denied in the Shia Islamic belief. Prophets have to be infallible if they are to guide other people to guidance. That is why we believe the stories in the Old and New Testament have suffered from distortion because obviously God would not dispatch such Prophets.

As for the moon splitting, it was considered a miracle from an Omnipotent God. I don't expect someone who does not believe in God or miracles to believe this event ever occurred.

As to the Moon splitting, I have no basis to criticize that belief.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Where does a person stop making things "symbolic" and "allegorical"? Creation? Allegory. The Flood? Allegory. Satan? Allegory. Jesus rising from the dead? Allegory. God???

You stop making things symbolic and allegorical when it confirms to what Baha'is portray as Baha'i teachings, else it follows a pattern of Baha'i logic that I've been completing in the last few days:

Baha'i logic:

1- That quote doesn't exist.
2- If it exists, it's not part of Baha'i writings.
3- If it's part of Baha'i writings it doesn't have an official translation.
4- If it has an official translation, you deliberately cited a thorny quote while ignoring the others.
5- If you weren't citing a thorny quote, you were twisting the statement to build a narrative of falsehood.
6- If you were not building a narrative of falsehood, you were taking it out of context.
8- If it hasn't been taken out of context, it's a statement that refers to the beliefs Islam or Christianity.
9- If it doesn't refer to the beliefs of Islam or Christianity it's a metaphor, allegory, or symbolic.
10- If it's not a metaphor, allegory, or symbolic you have an axe to grind.
11- If you don't have an axe to grind you are a Muslim from Iran and cannot be trusted.
12- If you are not a Muslim from Iran you still refuse to see the light.
13- If you are seeing the light then your beliefs are no better than ours.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

As to the Moon splitting, I have no basis to criticize that belief.

I wasn't referring to you. I simply meant that someone who doesn't believe in God or His Omnipotence won't believe in miracles either. BTW, you avatar is very creative.

 

[CG Didymus]

I dont agree its a cop out via only explanation. There is SOME archeology that astablishes parts of the bible as actual history, not just a book written in history. That handful of archeological finds is real. I can give you the source, listing some of those if you wish?



There is much evidence for a flood, even if just local.

Theres many extra biblical sources showing a flood, which leads me to believe there was a flood.



So far all weve done is astablish our views. It be interesting where it lead if we discussed in detail some of the data.

If you want to, trust me, im respectful. Some people get disrespectful debating or discussing aposite views, i dont (unless im attacked, then it gets hard, lol).

The issue then becomes... one or more of the religions are wrong about the truth about the Flood. If real, Christians are probably the biggest winner. But, that would make the Baha'is and their "symbolic" interpretation the loser. If the Baha'is are right, then the only losers are the traditional beliefs of ancient people that didn't have the knowledge that modern science has provided. But, it also makes any Scriptures that pushed that idea about the Flood as being a real event as myth. Can religious people live with that? I doubt it. They will fight to support the "truth" of their Holy Book. But, what so bad about it being a myth or the Baha'i preferred word "symbolic"?

Of course it is very bad. It makes the Bible untrustworthy as interpreted by the Jews, the Christians, and the Muslims. The only true interpretation becomes what the Baha'i Faith says. And, for you Baha'is, I'm not saying that is necessarily a bad thing. In fact, if you are right, then it's the best thing.

 

[CG Didymus]

This is obviously a response to the other thread I created where I showed Baha'u'llah believes the flood is real and it had encompassed all earth and destroyed everything:

Noah's Flood from a Baha'i perspective, fact or fantasy?

Unfortunately if our Baha'i friend here has paid more attention to the writings of Baha'u'llah he would have noticed that Baha'u'llah also believed that Noah had lived for at least 950 years:

“Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call.” (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i Iqan)​

And as usual, faced with a dilemma, his successor without providing any meaningless argument contradicts the founder and claims:

"The years of Noah are not years as we count them, and as our teachings do not state that this reference to years means His dispensation, we cannot interpret it this way." (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, November 25, 1950; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 1659)
​

I have rarely seen a statement in Baha'i scripture that has not been contradicted by one or all the leaders.

Yes, I kind of remember that from another thread. The old... Noah didn't live 950 years... His "dispensation" lasted 950 years. But, it says that the teachings don't state the reference means his dispensation? And, Baha'u'llah says that Noah exhorted people for 950 years? What's going on?

 

[shunyadragon]

You stop making things symbolic and allegorical when it confirms to what Baha'is portray as Baha'i teachings, else it follows a pattern of Baha'i logic that I've been completing in the last few days:

Baha'i logic:

1- That quote doesn't exist.
2- If it exists, it's not part of Baha'i writings.
3- If it's part of Baha'i writings it doesn't have an official translation.
4- If it has an official translation, you deliberately cited a thorny quote while ignoring the others.
5- If you weren't citing a thorny quote, you were twisting the statement to build a narrative of falsehood.
6- If you were not building a narrative of falsehood, you were taking it out of context.
8- If it hasn't been taken out of context, it's a statement that refers to the beliefs Islam or Christianity.
9- If it doesn't refer to the beliefs of Islam or Christianity it's a metaphor, allegory, or symbolic.
10- If it's not a metaphor, allegory, or symbolic you have an axe to grind.
11- If you don't have an axe to grind you are a Muslim from Iran and cannot be trusted.
12- If you are not a Muslim from Iran you still refuse to see the light.
13- If you are seeing the light then your beliefs are no better than ours.

Your references are selective and incomplete.

Islamic logic simple.

Attack everything that does not agree with whatever they believe.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes, I kind of remember that from another thread. The old... Noah didn't live 950 years... His "dispensation" lasted 950 years. But, it says that the teachings don't state the reference means his dispensation? And, Baha'u'llah says that Noah exhorted people for 950 years? What's going on?

Clarification, selective references do not take into consideration all the references. The 950 years are not considered literal years as we use years.

 

[CG Didymus]

In the belief of Shia Islam the only person that has the right to choose the successor to a Prophet is the same one that dispatched that Prophet: meaning God. So Muhammad had no say in who should or could be his successor. It was God that chose Ali, no one else had a say in this not even the Prophet.

One thing that I would like to know is... Baha'is make all "manifestations" equal. That includes Krishna and Buddha. In Shia Islam are all "manifestations" equal? Like for instance Jesus and Muhammad? Or Muhammad and Moses? And the rest? Is there even a category comparable to the Baha'i definition of a "manifestation" in Shia Islam that would include all these prophets and founders of all the other religions?

 

[CG Didymus]

The Baha'i writings do not consider the deluge of Noah a literal flood, nor the age of Noah as 950 years. The deluge is symbolic of the new Manifestation of God cleansing the earth of the old, and the age of Noah is a length of time not measured in our years as referenced by Abul'baha, and Shogi Effendi.

From: Deluge Myths, Noah’s Ark and the Renewal of Religion

The Baha’i teachings indicate that the Ark riding the waves of a deluge refers directly to the coming of a new prophet of God, and the new principles and laws that prophet brings. Symbolically, the flood washes away the broken traces of the old religious dispensation; and remakes the Earth for the appearance of the new one, just as the spring rains and floods inundate the land and sweep the detritus of winter out to sea. As a symbol of God’s teachings and covenant, the Ark represents the salvation of the people in each era, and appears throughout the Baha’i writings, used in many different ways. Here, Baha’u’llah uses the symbol of the ark to stand for divine guidance, and guiding star in the heavens to stand for the dawning of a new light in that “true and exalted Morn:”

And now, concerning His words: “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven.” By these words it is meant that when the sun of the heavenly teachings hath been eclipsed, the stars of the divinely-established laws have fallen, and the moon of true knowledge — the educator of mankind — hath been obscured; when the standards of guidance and felicity have been reversed, and the morn of truth and righteousness hath sunk in night, then shall the sign of the Son of man appear in heaven. By “heaven” is meant the visible heaven, inasmuch as when the hour draweth nigh on which the Day-star of the heaven of justice shall be made manifest, and the Ark of divine guidance shall sail upon the sea of glory, a star will appear in the heaven, heralding unto its people the advent of that most great light. In like manner, in the invisible heaven a star shall be made manifest who, unto the peoples of the earth, shall act as a harbinger of the break of that true and exalted Morn. – Baha’u’llah, The Book of Certitude, pp. 61-62.

Who do the Baha'is believe was the manifestation prior to Noah? And, who was the manifestation that came 950 years after Noah? Oh, and what about the other people that lived hundreds of years that are mentioned in the Bible? How are their long lives explained? Thanks.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Yes, I kind of remember that from another thread. The old... Noah didn't live 950 years... His "dispensation" lasted 950 years. But, it says that the teachings don't state the reference means his dispensation? And, Baha'u'llah says that Noah exhorted people for 950 years? What's going on?

According to Baha'u'llah, Noah a metaphorical Prophet, preached for 950 metaphorical years, and then a metaphorical flood destroyed his metaphorical people while he was saved in a metaphorical ship. Does it make more sense now or do I sound like a nutjob?

 

[Vinayaka]

CG, I feel like I've been reading this stuff for 950 years. Metaphorically.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

One thing that I would like to know is... Baha'is make all "manifestations" equal. That includes Krishna and Buddha. In Shia Islam are all "manifestations" equal? Like for instance Jesus and Muhammad? Or Muhammad and Moses? And the rest? Is there even a category comparable to the Baha'i definition of a "manifestation" in Shia Islam that would include all these prophets and founders of all the other religions?

In Shia Islam there is no such thing as a Manifestation of God. The mere word is considered heresy and you will not find the word manifestation (Mazhar-e zohoor or mazaher-e elahiyye as Baha'i call them in Arabic/Persian) anywhere in Shia scripture or the Quran. We believe in Prophets and Messengers. All Prophets are NOT considered equal:

"Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spoke, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) and We supported him with the holy Spirit." (Quran, 2:53)​

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

CG, I feel like I've been reading this stuff for 950 years. Metaphorically.

Literally it feels like a few millennium.

 

[shunyadragon]

Who do the Baha'is believe was the manifestation prior to Noah? And, who was the manifestation that came 950 years after Noah? Oh, and what about the other people that lived hundreds of years that are mentioned in the Bible? How are their long lives explained? Thanks.

This was clarified as a Baha'i citation from Abdul'baha and later Shoghi Effendi. The 950 years are not 950 literal years.

"The Master (Abdu'l Baha) said: "The age of those ancient prophets as recorded in the Old Testament is symbolic. It has a spiritual interpretation. Wert thou informed of the science of anatomy thou wouldst realize that this human mechanism and these material organs cannot last more than one hundred and twenty years."" (Attributed to 'Abdu'l-Baha, Star of the West, volume 13, issue 6, p. 152)

As to where the Baha'i writings consider where in the lineage of Manifestations of God I will have to check.

 

[Vinayaka]

This was clarified as a Baha'i citation from Abdul'baha and later Shoghi Effendi. The 950 years are not 950 literal years.

"The Master said: "The age of those ancient prophets as recorded in the Old Testament is symbolic. It has a spiritual interpretation. Wert thou informed of the science of anatomy thou wouldst realize that this human mechanism and these material organs cannot last more than one hundred and twenty years."" (Attributed to 'Abdu'l-Baha, Star of the West, volume 13, issue 6, p. 152)

As to where the Baha'i writings consider where in the lineage of Manifestations of God I will have to check.

So the next guy to come along may well not be in 950 years, but in 2 weeks?