Atheists: What would you consider credible communication from God?

[Unveiled Artist]

What would convince me of God's existence, even if I experienced it personally and vividly, likely wouldn't convince anyone else I wasn't just crazy.

I just wanted to know what god you want others to give you evidence of (apart from your conclusion that DMT experience is your view of god communication.)

For a person who is arguing for a particular god or aspects of their god, that which they are arguing for is the thing for which I'd want evidence if we're going to have a debate about the thing

OK. What is the nature of god you are looking for?

To say that DMT is nothing close to god, but that the connection to a passion or other people is, is absurd if you have any idea what DMT is like when you take it, But I think maybe you aren't familiar with DMT based on your reply.

How is it absurd? If you are talking about the Christian god, you would need to go deeper than christian claims. If you feel god is an entity for christians, what other means of communication are you looking for? I mean. There is no aliens shooting out alienated voices like star trek or something. It has a very human explanation. Is there something nonhuman you are referring to in regards to god communication different than the list I gave you?

The transcendent force or forces that shape Being. The prime mover if there is one, and I think there must be. The forces that hold reality together as it is. The forces that cause us (us being all living things, past present and future) to evolve the way we do

Energy. Many people believe on this, just only a certain percent are mystical about it.

Christian god is the mover of all things. It does form and create and move into what we call the universe. Many creation gods fit this definition. Culture and language shapes how people relate to this concept of god.

You understand gods inherit nature. Does it have some form of communication by whatever means?

Why makes your definition different than a christians when you draw your own conclusions of the definition of their god?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I'm an atheist. If this hypothetical Jesus shows up, and could verify he was not only the Historical Jesus, but God in the Flesh? (and being All Knowing, he would know what was needed to be certain).

Then I would have to accept he was The Jesus.

But I would not worship him. Nor would I bow down like a slave, to kiss his feet.

For starters? Why did he take Great Pains to remain Hidden from the majority of Earth for the last 2000 years? And why does he permit all the false religions to even exist at all?

Just for starters... I'd only be getting warmed up.

With Great Power (all powerful is as Great as you can Get)? Comes Great Responsibility.

Jesus simply does not Cut The Mustard. Never has, in fact.


This ... ahem... "Love" is not in Evidence. Quite the Opposite, in fact...

ooops!


So. Why are YOU on RF, then? Hubris?

I don't understand. I trusted Jesus without seeing Him in person. Why are you so special that the Bible isn't enough for you?

 

[BilliardsBall]

That's true. It would never be good enough.

That is all evidence, just not the evidence they want; but that is too bad, because that is the evidence God wants to provide. Something is seriously wrong with their logical abilities because they cannot understand that an Omnipotent God is in charge of everything and has all power so He only does what HE WANTS to do. He is not a tailor cook customizing communication to suit everyone's needs. This is the epitome of arrogance.

The essential atheist argument is that God CAN do anything so God SHOULD do what I think He should do. What kind of an Omnipotent God would that be that took orders from humans? But they cannot understand HOW illogical that is because they want what they want.

I am pretty much done posting to him. I have left him in the hands of the Christians on that forum, not that it will do any good. Now I know why Jesus said to shake the dust off of your feet.

1) Yes, atheists frequently lose their cool on forums and revert to a childlike "God doesn't do what I like, so I hate Him" mode. Just today I was asked why Jesus doesn't personally appear to them, the Bible and reason aren't enough for them.

2) Atheists love attention. Whether on forums or in person, they love to be the center of attention, fighting with Christians--Christians should often avoid them to preach to open people (where permissible).

 

[masonlandry]

I just wanted to know what god you want others to give you evidence of (apart from your conclusion that DMT experience is your view of god communication.)

If others are making a claim, I want evidence for that particular claim, nothing more nothing less. You don't seem to be understandding that I'm not "looking for" a god. Also, I said earlier but maybe I wasn't clear, I don't believe I was communicating with a god in DMT, I said that out of anything I've ever experienced, that is by far the closest thing to qualifying as a divine experience.

OK. What is the nature of god you are looking for?

As I've said, I'm not looking for a god and I'm definitely not looking for one with a pre-defined nature. If there is a god, it's nature is what is, not what I've decided it should be .

How is it absurd? If you are talking about the Christian god, you would need to go deeper than christian claims. If you feel god is an entity for christians, what other means of communication are you looking for? I mean. There is no aliens shooting out alienated voices like star trek or something. It has a very human explanation. Is there something nonhuman you are referring to in regards to god communication different than the list I gave you?

My whole point is that I think most Christians are wrong about god. They are projecting an antrlhripomorphized image of a human-god idea and expecting that imagined thing to communicate with them in a way they think a human-like god would. I think this is a mistake .Communication from any real god is not something you could "look for" in any terms of expecting something beforehand. You could only pay attention and take what comes. But when something does come, it isn't exempt from rational consideration even if it is percieved as coming from God, because it may not actually have .

Energy. Many people believe on this, just only a certain percent are mystical about it.

Christian god is the mover of all things. It does form and create and move into what we call the universe. Many creation gods fit this definition. Culture and language shapes how people relate to this concept of god.

You understand gods inherit nature. Does it have some form of communication by whatever means?

Why makes your definition different than a christians when you draw your own conclusions of the definition of their god?

I literally answered this question in my last post.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I want evidence

You don't seem to be understandding that I'm not "looking for" a god.

Don't take it personal. I will use the word Want instead.

My whole point is that I think most Christians are wrong about god.

They are projecting an antrlhripomorphized image of a human-god idea and expecting that imagined thing to communicate with them in a way they think a human-like god would.

I think this is a mistake .Communication from any real god is not something you could "look for" in any terms of expecting something beforehand.

You could only pay attention and take what comes. But when something does come, it isn't exempt from rational consideration even if it is percieved as coming from God, because it may not actually have

In bold is all I wanted to know. What is the nature of god you want christians to give you (Want-above quote). You want evidence for an athromo* god. Like I said, you have to look deeper into their claims and draw your own conclusions on what each claim and denominational claim have in common. Its not like a being in the sky shooting beams for higher communication. It's a very humanoid experience. It is very subjective. The evidence is very straight forward.

Evidence of a real god can't communicate? Yes. In your definition of god, I'd say communication is just living within god. Not a noun just a state of being.

That depends on what you think christians are defining as god. If you look deep, what are christians athromophizing* (on phone)? Find the source and ditch the rest.

 

[masonlandry]

Don't take it personal. I will use the word Want instead.




In bold is all I wanted to know. What is the nature of god you want christians to give you (Want-above quote). You want evidence for an athromo* god. Like I said, you have to look deeper into their claims and draw your own conclusions on what each claim and denominational claim have in common. Its not like a being in the sky shooting beams for higher communication. It's a very humanoid experience. It is very subjective. The evidence is very straight forward.

Evidence of a real god can't communicate? Yes. In your definition of god, I'd say communication is just living within god. Not a noun just a state of being.

That depends on what you think christians are defining as god. If you look deep, what are christians athromophizing* (on phone)? Find the source and ditch the rest.

The typical Christian conception of god is one with human thoughts, human emotions, a human sense of justice, human morals, who loves as a human loves, etc. They will say that God is infinitely greater than we can imagine, yet act and talk about God as if they do understand him and his will, and they view in in limited human terms. This is what I mean by anthropomorphized.

An anthropomorphism of gods is necessary to talk about God at all, but people forget that it is only a literary, linguistic tool, not the reality. In the same way that we might say "a duck quaks" a duck doesn't actually make the noise that sounds like the English word "quak". That's just as close a representation as we can talk about.

We can usually count on a Christian to understand that when, in Genesis, God is said to have walked in the garden of Eden, he wasn't actually in a human form, walking on human legs, talking with a larynx when he asks Adam why he was hiding after eating the fruit of the forbidden tree. But what most of them don't seem to understand is that all the rest of the descriptions of God are of the same nature. To say "God is just" is only as close an approximation as our language can allow so we can talk about God at all. But the definition of "just" in any human mind is necessarily limited to what a human sees as justice, which varies from culture to culture and across time. The same with any other character attribute of God. It is one thing to say this is understood, but another thing to act as if it is understood. And what I see with any Christian I've ever talked to or encountered is that they don't act as if they truly understand it. They go on to describe what God would want, what God would do, and how we should act based on these things, as if God actually embodies their human definition of his character traits.

 

[columbus]

They go on to describe what God would want, what God would do, and how we should act based on these things, as if God actually embodies their human definition of his character traits.

This is the main problem most nontheists have with many religious folks.
We don't much care what you believe as long as you recognize it as a personal opinion. It's when people start insisting that I behave in any particular way based only on their opinion that I get really testy.
Tom

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Ill explain more.

If God communicated to everyone and made it easy, then our value for truth and knowledge would depreciate. If God did it all for us, life would be stationary. No value..

False Dichotomy Logical Fallacy. You appear to think there is no middle ground-- that it's 100% or 0%. That your god is so inept, so clumsy, that it cannot Communicate To Everyone without blasting everyone to dust or some such.

Not much of a god-- it's like a Parent who has but ONE (1) method of punishing his children: Blast'em with a Shotgun.

"Jimmy! I told you to clean your room!"
"But Dad! Spongebob was on TV!"
"I don't care. Now come here-- it's time for the Shotgun."
"Awwww."

Its not arbitrary favoritism. Its favor based on humility.
.

Still arbitrary. What is so "special" about humility? Your god certainly never displays any! What about lead by example?

He lets them choose. Should God take away there choice?
.

False dichotomy logical fallacy. Again.

Sometimes he does overide desensitization to the spirit world. But, the reason he designed this desensitization is to increase value and appreciation.
.

So. For some, he takes Special Effort? And we are back to Special Favorites, again.

EVIL.

In the cases of ESP experiences, the experiencer verifies. Granted, others cannot verify.
.

Then it's not actually verified, IS IT?

More like, he cares, but he has designed the system so it can have a value level to it and he reserves the right to design it as he pleases..

MIGHT MAKES RIGHT MORAL FAILURE.

Ooops!

Yes, the angels also had free will and SOME knowledge. But more knowledge then man. Even SOME angels REBELLED with there FREEDOM.
.

See? It's quite possible to eliminate the very ludicrous idea of faith-- replace it with knowledge.... and keep Free Will.

But your god absolutely refuses: It prefers Special Favorites instead. EVIL.

God, the creator of the entire universe is responsible to obey your demand?

MIGHT MAKES RIGHT MORAL FAILURE.

Your god is absolutely immoral, unethical and nothing short of a monster. Based on your depictions of him, alone.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

God is not evil because God chooses to use Messengers but if you want to believe that it is your choice, because you have free will. .

Nope. Using Special Favorites is Demonstratively UNFAIR.

A 2 year old recognizes this. Monkeys, chips and other apes recognize this. Even Dolphins.

UNFAIR==EVIL.

You have yet to explain why this isn't so-- apart from the failed "God Does What God Wants" argument (might makes right).

God has no obligation to DO what you or anyone else thinks He should DO. You do not get to determine what is fair or moral for God, God determines what is fair and moral for you to do..

MIGHT MAKES RIGHT moral failure. Evil.

God MUST as a bare minimum, act in a SUPERIOR MORAL FASHION to mere humans.

Your god? Fails at this task, therefore, Evil.

God cannot be Unfair or Immoral. Only humans have those attributes.

False. You don't get to re-define "unfair" because it paints your god in an evil light.

MIGHT MAKES RIGHT is evil. Look at the former USSR.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

God does not delude anyone. People delude themselves. .

So. Yet another thing your god cannot do. Or worse-- is unwilling (malicious, evil).

Cannot an infinite being overcome mere mortal's delusions? Apparently not.

Not all-powerful. NOT all KNOWING either.

god-preventable evil....
God endowed humans with a brain and free will to choose to do good or evil..

People do not CHOOSE to experience a massive EARTHQUAKE.

People do not CHOOSE to experience massive drought, and crop failure.

People do not CHOOSE to experience cancer in children.

People do not CHOOSE to experience massive tsunamis that destroy lives, wreck coastlines and so on.

FAIL. YOUR GOD IS EVIL.

Why should God prevent the evil that humans cause by virtue of their own free will?
.

Oh! I did not realize that humans have invented anti-earthquake machines!
Or humans can make it rain anywhere, any time, to whatever amount they need?

This must be a new discovery????

Because God is omnipotent so God can do anything...
j.

And your god's principle trait? IS TO DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL.

Apart from selecting a few Special Favorites, in a Cosmic Moral Failure of Infinite Proportions.

Grown adults can't do anything for themselves, God has to do everything FOR THEM, because God is omnipotent... Sorry you cannot see how illogical that is.

Oh! Let me fire up my anti-hurricane machine, and direct the latest mega-storm back out to sea, then. RIGHT?

WHAT WAS IT ABOUT "GOD-PREVENTABLE" THAT ESCAPED YOU?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No Oops necessary... The infinite knowing being does not WANT it to be verifiable, and that is why it isn't. .

Special Favorites: EVIL, MALICIOUS. Absolutely NOT GOOD.

No, it does not destroy it at all. God is All-Knowing and All-Powerful, and God KNOWS it cannot be verified but God does not WANT it to be verified, and an All-Powerful God always gets what it wants. Whatcha gonna do about it? .[/QUOTE]

Malicious. Evil. NOT GOOD: MIGHT DOES NOT MAKE RIGHT.

YOUR GOD IS PURE EVIL, the more you describe it.

God does not communicate with everyone*, verified, because God does not want to. An omnipotent God ONLY DOES what it wants to do, not what humans want it to do.
That is more logical..

Malicious. Evil. That's your god in a nutshell.

God does not WANT the message to be verified, that is what YOU WANT. Guess who gets what they want, you or the omnipotent God??? .

Your god? Malicious. We GET that already. Good thing it's not real, now isn't it?

You are not going to get a direct message from God because God does not WANT to send you one, and an omnipotent God ONLY DOES what it wants to do.

Of course people would follow it of they KNEW it was from God.

How many people jump off cliffs compared to people who don't?

Your excuses for your god's 100% failure to act GODLY?

Makes your god out to be a petulant child, pure evil really.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I do not know what the deity knows or thinks. I only know what He revealed through Baha'u'llah, His Will for humanity in this age..

Yet-- every one of your posts? You give incredible, lengthy and long replies that say you DO think you know.

You are not being consistent.

I do not expect to get verification; since God does not provide it I cannot expect to get it since it comes from God. This logic 101 stuff.

Logical FALLACY stuff, you mean.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

It is not God who has the limitations, it is humans who have the limitations. .

Yet, I have demonstrated that there are quite a few things your god cannot do.

PRINCIPALLY? ACT RESPONSIBLY.

The All Knowing All Powerful God created humans that way because He never planned to communicate directly with anyone, except His Messengers. Too bad you don't like it. God does not care if you like it..

Evil. Malicious. That's your god in a nutshell. Since there is quite a bit of GOOD in the world?

Your god is either quite INEPT? (not god) or simply doesn't exist (also not god).

How do I know God doesn't care? It's logic 101. If an Omnipotent God cared, and Omnipotent God would cater to you, since He can.

Logical Fallacy 101. Again.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

God does not WANT TO communicate directly to you in such a way that is verifiable, and an Omnipotent God only does what it WANTS TO DO.... What about that do you not understand?

We do not always get what we want in life Bob, in case you have noticed...
But I suppose you blame God for that too....
EVERYTHING God's fault because God is Omnipotent.

Same old same old: MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.

That means? Your god? Evil.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I want a bicycle for Christmas but daddy won't get me a bicycle for Christmas, that's not fair.

False Dichotomy Logical Fallacy. Not asking for mere bicycles.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The Bible is not my claim.

Then? WHY DID YOU USE IT AS A "PROOF"?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I don't understand. I trusted Jesus without seeing Him in person. Why are you so special that the Bible isn't enough for you?

Why are YOU so gullible that the very flawed, inconsistent and archaic bible IS?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hm.

An anthropomorphism of gods is necessary to talk about God at all, but people forget that it is only a literary, linguistic tool, not the reality. In the same way that we might say "a duck quaks" a duck doesn't actually make the noise that sounds like the English word "quak". That's just as close a representation as we can talk about.

So you dont want evidence for god in general but the anthropomorphized god?

The anthropomorphism is a human thing not a god thing. Christians say that god is just, etc, because they are strongly anthropomorphising scripture in a person and interactive sense. One christiam says the bible Is god's words, his voice. He cant speak outside the bible. Its just bring alive the bible to interact with it. Ask a christian anything outside, the bible. He or she would say you are wrong. For some reason they only consider truth whats in a limited amount of pages. The evidence of their anthropomorphism is the bible; that is their source. If you want something supernatural, there is none. Its a total experience, wholeness, understanding, source of passion, etc that creates and develops love within that christian.They call it spirit.

And what I see with any Christian I've ever talked to or encountered is that they don't act as if they truly understand it. They go on to describe what God would want, what God would do, and how we should act based on these things, as if God actually embodies their human definition of his character traits.

Thats a strong claim against christians faith. Thats like a christian claiming another christian isnt a real one based on what they believe christians should act like. Have you heard a christian speak about gods wants and needs apart from the bible?

If you have, I get your point. I havent, so your question for evidence doesnt make sense. Maybe take another approach?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You dont understand that your parallel earth to God is a apples to oranges comparison. Or incommensurable. God transcends the universe, the parallel earth does not. God is infinate, the parralel earth is not. God is a intelligent, conscious energy, the parallel universe is not. God is eternal, with no begining, a parallel earth has a beginning.

There is no comparison.

For the record, there is also no argument. You have just made a long list of assertions about the nature of something which you cannot possibly demonstrate to anyone, ever. You may as well claim God is also pink and blue, 23 feet tall, an apple or an orange, and thoroughly bisexual for all the good it will do. None of those things is any more nor less demonstrable about God than anything in your list.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

If all believers wake up tomorrow believeing in the same god, I would be impressed.

How could expect that to happen, logically speaking? Only if God took over everyone's minds and made them all believe in the same God could that ever happen. Why should God do that?

Now here, you show exactly how unreasonable your arguments are. Because the argument you make here (that all the others who don't believe in God could only do so if God made them), clearly implies that all those who DO believe in God do so for the same reason. That is, unfortunately, very logically implied in your statement. If the only reason a non-believer can believe in God is through an action by God, then you must consider the fact that every human person, at the moment of birth and for a considerable time afterwards, was a non-believer.