Jesus Resurrection

[Prometheus85]

Prometheus85 said: The death and resurrection of Jesus in roughly 28 or 29 CE assertedby the Bible (many times) and by almost every living Christian. Yet there is not only no evidence that said resurrection ever occurred, but there is essentially no way to prove that somebody that died and came back to life over 2000 hrs ago.

If you could ever proof that the Resurrection of Christ ever occurred, you could debunk Christianity all together. Your not the first person that tried to use this as the basis of not believing. All those that have tried to find the evidence that the resurrection never happened now believe. So, this could be a challenge for you. Give me proof that it did not occur. There were other resurrections that occurred to only give those that doubted a resurrection a better understanding.

As I said previously, if you can not show me in scripture that this is not true....your wasting my time. You only assuming!

Sorry but nice try to shift the burden of proof on me but it ain’t gonna happen. The burden of proof lies on you since u believe Jesus came back from the dead, I don’t. So I don’t need to prove anything. You also need to back your claim that people who weren’t believers in the resurrection are now believers.

 

[joelr]

Thats my question exactly. Why would you brush it off? But YOU DID.

I didnt' I looked at some articles, it's BS
"It is unfortunate for those who love the Bible that all of these incredible claims are almost certainly fraudulent. A great criticism leveled at Mr. Wyatt has been that his "evidence" has generally been in the form of either photographs or nonconclusive specimens, which may or may not have come from the source he claims. His "findings" have not been given independent confirmation by other researchers with specialized training in the fields of archaeology and related sciences, which Mr. Wyatt (a nurse anesthetist by profession) did not have (he died in 1999). This lack of specific education by itself would not invalidate his findings if they could be supported by others, but they cannot. In this book, the Standish brothers examine the Wyatt claims in-depth, going beyond his videotaped claims. These findings can serve as a benchmark upon which Ron Wyatt's "discoveries" can be more carefully evaluated. In 58 easily-read chapters the Standishs meticulously, painstakingly examine in detail all of Wyatt's claims."

If this site has loads of evidence for the exodus, which it does. Then no, the OT is not myth. Your view is a myth. And stop acting like all archeologists, historians and schalars dont believe the bible is true. Some do, some dont.

Leading biblical archeologist William Denver and the article in Judian times both admitted there is no evidence fro Exodus. But not just exodus - Moses, the patriarchs, Judea, and all sorts of other OT characters.

It's over.

Ok, wer getting somewhere now. What caused this fire? Whats your theory? Keep in mind, this would have been a HUGE fire. It ingulfed the whole mountain top, skirting down, all around, making a barier line. You saw the picture in the article, you know. What could have caused that?

No, it's all false and no need for speculation, it's already been debunked :
Mount Sinai is NOT Jebel al-Lawz in Saudi Arabia
The biggest problem with the identification of Jebel al-Lawz as Mt. Sinai is that it does not meet the Biblical criteria for the site. In my Bible and Spade article I point out three questionable assumptions made by the proponents of Jebel al-Lawz.

Come on mr naturalist. You should know better then that. Dont you know what a meteor crash looks like when it hits earth? It leaves a hole.

Not true, in Russia 1908, Tuskunga, 25 sq miles of forest was burned by a comet exploding in the atmosphere. All of the comets material was disintigrated.

If it hit the top of the mountain, the mountain would not have its pointy tip no more. And plus, the chared rock would not be uniform as it is on this mountain, it would be scattered charing.

Care to try again?

Yeah, the article shows it's a bullcrap anyways.

But the Tuskunga event didn't leave any crater, just burned down forest and blackened dirt.

Oh of course it does! Because thats your religion! You must see everything through those lenses.

Not having invisible friends isn't a religion. It's called growing up.

If your at the point where your brushing the evidence away, then theres no discussion. Youve nothing left.

That had been debunked. Science is telling us that the OT is mythical and your best evidence is charred dirt? You've basically conceded.

Despite what the worlds best biblical archeologists are saying your charred dirt is going to prove all of their lifetime of work wrong? Along with the work by Thomas Thompson now accepted as reason why history can accept Moses as myth.

Your burnt dirt is going to erase all that? I'm getting embarrassed for you.

You wanna manipulate the discussion. Sorry, i wont let you do that.

" Perhaps some day Biblical scholars might catch up with the archaeological world!"
"I examined the archaeological evidence in my article in Bible and Spade and found that this evidence did not line up with the Biblical record (Franz 2000:107-111)"

Black mountain top, LOL.

Ah....no, thats not firmly astablished, not all scholars agree, some do, some dont. So, deal with the black mountain, its NOT OVER.

No, Thomas Thompsons workk has been peer reviewed by scholars, Moses is accepted as myth in scholarship.


"I believe that this paper, along with the Bible and Spade article, will conclusively demonstrated that there is no credible historical, geographical, archaeological or Biblical evidence to support the thesis that Mt. Sinai is at Jebel al-Lawz in Saudi Arabia."

It's funny you think I'm manipulating the conversation because I've been debunking craploads of material you've put forth and you haven't "dealt with " any of it.

You just stop talking about it once you have nothing left to say. And bring some new even poorer piece of evidence and think your on to something significant.

Your the one that likes to use the word "probability" right? Well, whats more probable if any God chared the mountain? Is it more probable that zues would have done it or more probable that Yahweh did it?

Definitely equal probability. 100% equal. Could have been Lord Krishna or Shiva the Destroyer also. Equal probability.
Because they are all mythological characters so they are exactly equal.

Since the story in exodus SAYS yahwah came on the mountain in a piller of fire, then its more probable that if any God did this, that HE would have, since hes directly mentioned as done so, while zues has not been.

Do you have ALL of the scriptures and writings of Zeus? Also since the OT is a myth, and the Exodus story is not found in archeology we know it didnt' happen.
Exodus, pillars of fire and Yahweh are once again mythical so they have had zero effect on the real world and on mountain tops.

It be a good idea if you left your mocking out of the discussion too by the way. It make things more fruitfull.

Then stop with ridiculous fringe findings by frauds who are easily debunked by scholarship.
Mount Sinai is NOT Jebel al-Lawz in Saudi Arabia[/QUOTE]

 

[joelr]

All those that have tried to find the evidence that the resurrection never happened now believe.

That's not true. Many scholars and former religious leaders studied the history of Christianity and became non-believers.

One can say they only want to deal with the words in scripture, all else is meaningless to them. Fine, go for it, have a dance party.

But when you say things like "All those that have tried to find the evidence that the resurrection never happened now believe" you are either mis-informed or lying.
I can show many examples of the opposite happening.

 

[joelr]

Lukethethird and joel and prometheus, they know about it, but they dont believe it. I think its because there a few fries short of a happy meal, lol!

Are you a few fries short because you don't believe in Lord Krishna?
According to that logic you must be?

Yes I know about the story, and as you well know I know it's mythology.

At this point you've seen more than enough evidence on the Jesus mythicist facts and know full well why people believe myths are myths.

You haven't debunked one single piece of historical information on Jesus.
While you may decide to have faith, believing in fictional characters would be the person who is a few fries short.
You are in the weird pagan magic blood to cancel your sins cult, not me.

 

[Tammie]

Jollybear,
I asked you where in scripture does it say we go to heaven as a holding tank then come down to earth. You gave me Philipians 1 as an example

"21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

My husband or I do not see this in this particular verse. Another verse similar to this from Paul
1 John 3:2 -Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (Talking of the resurrection)

Job 14:14 -If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. (Talking of the resurrection)

Job 21:32 - Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 - Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Psalms 146:3-4 -Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Anyhow, got to go to work so I will not be able to stick around until you respond. Will answer later if I'm able.

 

[Prometheus85]

@Tammie how there is no evidence for Jesus resurrection outside the Bible? I mean somebody coming back form the dead is a pretty big deal wouldn’t u say? Surely that type of Phenomenon would have been extrodnary. If someone came back form the dead today it would be high!!!! So how come there are no other documents? We all know who the ancients loved to document stuff.

 

[Jollybear]

Leading biblical archeologist William Denver and the article in Judian times both admitted there is no evidence fro Exodus. But not just exodus - Moses, the patriarchs, Judea, and all sorts of other OT characters.

Just because they say it dont make it so. Not all scholars agree.

It's over.

For you perhaps, not for me.

No, it's all false and no need for speculation, it's already been debunked :
Mount Sinai is NOT Jebel al-Lawz in Saudi Arabia
The biggest problem with the identification of Jebel al-Lawz as Mt. Sinai is that it does not meet the Biblical criteria for the site. In my Bible and Spade article I point out three questionable assumptions made by the proponents of Jebel al-Lawz.

On the same website, in this article Is Mount Sinai in Saudi Arabia?

"Mt. Sinai Covered with Smoke


Williams and Conuke have pictures of the summit of Jebel al-Lawz “scorched black”. Cornuke attributes this to the smoke that covered the mountain when the Lord came down on Mt. Sinai (Ex. 19: 16-20). He claims that the


blackened rock had become a holy handprint for the ages. God placed his signature in heavenly flames in a fashion so electrifying, so stupefying, that man’s proud logic and science would be hard-pressed to explain it (Cornuke and Halbrook 2000: 77).

Williams (1990: 78) is a bit more cautious concerning this evidence.


Science may provide the answer. Cornuke (Cornuke and Halbrook 2000: 75) and Williams (1990: 167) brought back rocks for “future laboratory analysis”. They arranged for geologists to look at their rock samples (Cornuke and Halbrook 2000: 116). Researchers are interested in seeing the lab analyses, but they have been unavailable for the last 13 years. Judgment on this evidence should be withheld until the rocks have been scientifically analyzed and properly published."

The mountain is over there. It has a black top. One of its kind. Stands out amongs the rest. Its not a made up mountain.

Not true, in Russia 1908, Tuskunga, 25 sq miles of forest was burned by a comet exploding in the atmosphere. All of the comets material was disintigrated.

Ok, these mountains dont have forests. Few rare scattered trees, but no forests. So, a meteor exploding wont have much to grab and burn. This mountain has a clear barier line with a black top.

Not having invisible friends isn't a religion. It's called growing up.

Did you grow up or did you become arrogant, looking down with a snarling additude on others who dont agree with you? You dont have to answer that, just think about it.

That had been debunked. Science is telling us that the OT is mythical and your best evidence is charred dirt? You've basically conceded.

Dont tell me what i concede, ill be the one to tell you that and i most certainly dont concede. And these articles arent debunking anything, there just offering there twisted spin.

Despite what the worlds best biblical archeologists are saying your charred dirt is going to prove all of their lifetime of work wrong? Along with the work by Thomas Thompson now accepted as reason why history can accept Moses as myth.

Exactly, thats exactly what its gonna do. Just because someone has a phd and says something, dont mean crap. The trail of evidence speaks louder then what they say.

Your burnt dirt is going to erase all that? I'm getting embarrassed for you.

It appears there "work" is wrong.

Perhaps some day Biblical scholars might catch up with the archaeological world!"

Perhaps the conventional archeology world will catch up.

No, Thomas Thompsons workk has been peer reviewed by scholars, Moses is accepted as myth in scholarship.

You can say the magic word peer review all day, it dont do nothing.

It's funny you think I'm manipulating the conversation because I've been debunking craploads of material you've put forth and you haven't "dealt with " any of it.

You are trying to minipulate it. When you make a red herring and i answer it, you then say my comment has no place in the discussion. Thats manipulation whether you like it or not pointed out, it is what it is.

Definitely equal probability. 100% equal. Could have been Lord Krishna or Shiva the Destroyer also. Equal probability.
Because they are all mythological characters so they are exactly equal.

Do you have ALL of the scriptures and writings of Zeus?

Your the one mentioning zues, so you tell me if the scriptures of zues say he ascended on mount sinai. Or krishna.

Also since the OT is a myth, and the Exodus story is not found in archeology we know it didnt' happen.

It is found in archeology. The biggest blunder of those archeologists who dont believe in the bible is there timeline is all wrong. Fix the timeline and theres loads of archeological evidence. And further more, archeology artifacts and locations dont come with a timeline date tag on it either. Keep that in mind.

Exodus, pillars of fire and Yahweh are once again mythical so they have had zero effect on the real world and on mountain tops.

All you do is preach that its mythical. Your no better then some minister in a church preaching. Just you preach naturalism. You must think if you say it long enough ill get brain washed or something? Lol, think again.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Just because they say it dont make it so. Not all scholars agree.



For you perhaps, not for me.



On the same website, in this article Is Mount Sinai in Saudi Arabia?

"Mt. Sinai Covered with Smoke


Williams and Conuke have pictures of the summit of Jebel al-Lawz “scorched black”. Cornuke attributes this to the smoke that covered the mountain when the Lord came down on Mt. Sinai (Ex. 19: 16-20). He claims that the


blackened rock had become a holy handprint for the ages. God placed his signature in heavenly flames in a fashion so electrifying, so stupefying, that man’s proud logic and science would be hard-pressed to explain it (Cornuke and Halbrook 2000: 77).

Williams (1990: 78) is a bit more cautious concerning this evidence.


Science may provide the answer. Cornuke (Cornuke and Halbrook 2000: 75) and Williams (1990: 167) brought back rocks for “future laboratory analysis”. They arranged for geologists to look at their rock samples (Cornuke and Halbrook 2000: 116). Researchers are interested in seeing the lab analyses, but they have been unavailable for the last 13 years. Judgment on this evidence should be withheld until the rocks have been scientifically analyzed and properly published."

The mountain is over there. It has a black top. One of its kind. Stands out amongs the rest. Its not a made up mountain.



Ok, these mountains dont have forests. Few rare scattered trees, but no forests. So, a meteor exploding wont have much to grab and burn. This mountain has a clear barier line with a black top.



Did you grow up or did you become arrogant, looking down with a snarling additude on others who dont agree with you? You dont have to answer that, just think about it.



Dont tell me what i concede, ill be the one to tell you that and i most certainly dont concede. And these articles arent debunking anything, there just offering there twisted spin.



Exactly, thats exactly what its gonna do. Just because someone has a phd and says something, dont mean crap. The trail of evidence speaks louder then what they say.



It appears there "work" is wrong.



Perhaps the conventional archeology world will catch up.



You can say the magic word peer review all day, it dont do nothing.



You are trying to minipulate it. When you make a red herring and i answer it, you then say my comment has no place in the discussion. Thats manipulation whether you like it or not pointed out, it is what it is.



Your the one mentioning zues, so you tell me if the scriptures of zues say he ascended on mount sinai. Or krishna.



It is found in archeology. The biggest blunder of those archeologists who dont believe in the bible is there timeline is all wrong. Fix the timeline and theres loads of archeological evidence. And further more, archeology artifacts and locations dont come with a timeline date tag on it either. Keep that in mind.



All you do is preach that its mythical. Your no better then some minister in a church preaching. Just you preach naturalism. You must think if you say it long enough ill get brain washed or something? Lol, think again.

Just because a mountain top looks dark from the base does not mean it was "scorched black". The ones that climbed it do not seem to think that was the case.

And I doubt if you can find any serious archaeologists that claim there is evidence for the Exodus.

 

[Prometheus85]

@Jollybear: Just because they say it dont make it so. Not all scholars agree.


So your asserting, just because it’s a scholar that don’t mean anything nor does it make it true and not all scholars agree, so something else must be true? The implication is that, because scholars really don’t have an answer (or a sufficiently good enough answer for u) already, any claim can take its place, even though it has no supporting evidenced.

 

[joelr]

Just because they say it dont make it so. Not all scholars agree.

Actually I was just looking around biblicalarcheology.org - yes, there is a consensus that Jesus was just a man.
There are articles trying to establish who his father might have been and such.
You're getting really out there? You dont' think William Denver is aware of ALL of the archeological finds related to the OT.
He is giving a broad scope picture of where the field currently is. Same thing with the article from Jureusalem Times.

On the same website, in this article Is Mount Sinai in Saudi Arabia?

"Mt. Sinai Covered with Smoke

HA HA, no one even knows where it really is ha ha!

Critical views
Some modern biblical scholars explain Mount Sinai as having been a sacred place dedicated to one of the Semitic deities, even before the Israelites encountered it.[8] Others regard the set of laws given on the mountain to have originated in different time periods from one another, with the later ones mainly being the result of natural evolution over the centuries of the earlier ones, rather than all originating from a single moment in time.[24]

Suggested locations
Modern scholars differ as to the exact geographical position of Mount Sinai,[URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Mount_Sinai#cite_note-autogenerated7-8'][8] and the same has long been true of scholars of Judaism. The Elijah narrative appears to suggest that when it was written, the location of Horeb was still known with some certainty, as Elijah is described as travelling to Horeb on one occasion,[25] but there are no later biblical references to it that suggest the location remained known; Josephus only specifies that it was within Arabia Petraea (a Roman Province encompassing modern Jordan, southern modern Syria, the Sinai Peninsula and northwestern Saudi Arabia with its capital in Petra), and the Pauline Epistles are even more vague, specifying only that it was in Arabia, which covers most of the south-western Middle east.[/URL]

Ok, these mountains dont have forests. Few rare scattered trees, but no forests. So, a meteor exploding wont have much to grab and burn. This mountain has a clear barier line with a black top.

That's your bible evidence HA HA HA

Did you grow up or did you become arrogant, looking down with a snarling additude on others who dont agree with you? You dont have to answer that, just think about it.

So because I don't believe in fairy tales with mountains of evidence against them I have a "snarling additude"? Nah.

Dont tell me what i concede, ill be the one to tell you that and i most certainly dont concede. And these articles arent debunking anything, there just offering there twisted spin.

If you can't come up with anything better than charred dirt then you concede.
What's even funnier is no one really knows where this biblical story refers to?

Exactly, thats exactly what its gonna do. Just because someone has a phd and says something, dont mean crap. The trail of evidence speaks louder then what they say.

HA HA HA HA
The earliest references to Jebel Musa as Mount Sinai or Mount Sinai being located in the present day Sinai Peninsula are inconclusive. There is evidence that prior to 100 CE, well before the Christian monastic period, Jewish sages equated Jebel Musa with Mount Sinai. Graham Davies of Cambridge University argues that early Jewish pilgrimages identified Jebel Musa as Mount Sinai and this identification was later adopted by the Christian pilgrims.[26][27] R. K. Harrison states that, “Jebel Musa . . . seems to have enjoyed special sanctity long before Christian times, culminating in its identification with Mt. Sinai."[28] In the second and third centuries BCE Nabataeans were making pilgrimages there, which is indicated in part by inscriptions discovered in the area.[29]

It appears there "work" is wrong.

Exactly my point. You are that kooky guy online who says "all the experts are wrong" as if that's actually a valid point. When ever people resort to "I'm right and all the experts are wrong" they have lost.

Perhaps the conventional archeology world will catch up.

See. It's not your silly mythology it's the entire world of scientific archeology that's wrong.
Thank you for conceding.

You can say the magic word peer review all day, it dont do nothing.

And again. You started out with wanting sources with references to exact page numbers by scholars and now it's just pure denial and "everyone is wrong except me".
Once you go irrational your done.
What do you think, I'm supposed to keep posting facts and scholarship while you sit around going "they're wrong, stupid educated people..."

You are trying to minipulate it. When you make a red herring and i answer it, you then say my comment has no place in the discussion. Thats manipulation whether you like it or not pointed out, it is what it is.

You don't seem to know what a red herring is?
I haven't manipulated anything, I really don't need to? This argument wins itself because you have no evidence.

Your the one mentioning zues, so you tell me if the scriptures of zues say he ascended on mount sinai. Or krishna.

Hmmmmm let's see:


Some modern biblical scholars explain Mount Sinai as having been a sacred place dedicated to one of the Semitic deities, even before the Israelites encountered it.[8] Others regard the set of laws given on the mountain to have originated in different time periods from one another, with the later ones mainly being the result of natural evolution over the centuries of the earlier ones, rather than all originating from a single moment in time.

It is found in archeology. The biggest blunder of those archeologists who dont believe in the bible is there timeline is all wrong. Fix the timeline and theres loads of archeological evidence. And further more, archeology artifacts and locations dont come with a timeline date tag on it either. Keep that in mind.

What are you talking about? First "those archeologists who dont believe in the bible" is ALL THE ARCHEOLOGISTS basically?
Second, your suggesting archeologists purposely change the timeline to the WRONG TIME so the bible appears to be more true?

As if they have no idea how to date things???? The date doesn't matter, NO MYTH IS REAL.
Jesus, Romulus and whoever is never going to be found to be real no matter what "timeline" things are put in?

All you do is preach that its mythical. Your no better then some minister in a church preaching. Just you preach naturalism. You must think if you say it long enough ill get brain washed or something? Lol, think again.

No, this information isn't for you. Way back I figured out that you have no interest in approaching reality with logic and critical thinking. You just pretended you did at first with all the "give me sources and page numbers".
And yes, that was pretend. Turns out that you really don't care about science, facts or any knowledge that goes against your fantasy.
It's completely delusional to even say I'm just preaching and trying to brainwash you?
Every single thing is backed up with some type of science, facts, scholarship, logic or critical thinking.
I started out saying religion isn't backed up by logic or history and you insisted it did.
NOW you're basically saying "I don't care how much science and knowledge you throw at me". Which is a complete 180.

 

[Jollybear]

Just because a mountain top looks dark from the base does not mean it was "scorched black". The ones that climbed it do not seem to think that was the case.

And I doubt if you can find any serious archaeologists that claim there is evidence for the Exodus.

Theres been people that went over there and climbed it and said it was scorched. They broke the rocks open. It was light brown inside and black outside.

 

[Jollybear]

Job 21:32 - Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

Notice here though, he says "remain".

My point is its a perception thing. Hes talking from the vantage point of this realm.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 -

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Right, the body is dead. Thats the body though. And he refers to knowledge from this realm. The knowledge or laws in the other realm are different then the physical realm.

Psalms 146:3-4 -

Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

The physical body again. From the vantage point of this earth realm.

Why couldent you see from the verse i gave you that the soul could depart from the body? The one where paul was talking?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Theres been people that went over there and climbed it and said it was scorched. They broke the rocks open. It was light brown inside and black outside.

People can say all sorts of things. If they do not do their homework there is no valid reason to believe them. Do you know who first made that claim about that mountain? The well known fraud Ron Wyatt. Are these opinions supported by any real archaeologists?

 

[Jollybear]

Actually I was just looking around biblicalarcheology.org - yes, there is a consensus that Jesus was just a man.

So, do you agree that Jesus was a real man then or do you believe hes a mythical fan fiction charector in a story? Which one is it?

HA HA, no one even knows where it really is ha ha!

Critical views
Some modern biblical scholars explain Mount Sinai as having been a sacred place dedicated to one of the Semitic deities, even before the Israelites encountered it.[8] Others regard the set of laws given on the mountain to have originated in different time periods from one another, with the later ones mainly being the result of natural evolution over the centuries of the earlier ones, rather than all originating from a single moment in time.[24]

Well people back then worshiped diverse gods. Including isreal. Isreal is even mentioned to worship another god right at the mountain in the story.

But, i asked you about zues, because you mentioned zues. When i debate, i like being specific. And getting specific responses to specific questions.

Suggested locations

Modern scholars differ as to the exact geographical position of Mount Sinai,[8] and the same has long been true of scholars of Judaism. The Elijah narrative appears to suggest that when it was written, the location of Horeb was still known with some certainty, as Elijah is described as travelling to Horeb on one occasion,[25] but there are no later biblical references to it that suggest the location remained known; Josephus only specifies that it was within Arabia Petraea (a Roman Province encompassing modern Jordan, southern modern Syria, the Sinai Peninsula and northwestern Saudi Arabia with its capital in Petra), and the Pauline Epistles are even more vague, specifying only that it was in Arabia, which covers most of the south-western Middle east.

Ha ha ha isnt a counter and what you quoted, i dont see the problem?

So because I don't believe in fairy tales with mountains of evidence against them I have a "snarling additude"? Nah.

No, you misunderstand. You disagreeing with my views does not make you have a snarling additude. You having a snarling additude makes you have a snarling additude.

Ive debated people in my past WHO DISAGREE with me and yet did not have a snarling additude.

If you can't come up with anything better than charred dirt then you concede.
What's even funnier is no one really knows where this biblical story refers to?

Ok, you wanna play that game with me. Fine. If you cannot come up with a real counter argument for this chared mountain, then you basically concede its real evidence. And we know where its generally at from historical records. But from archeology, we know exactly where its at because its found and everything matches up. You wanna preach, ok, ill preach back.

I dont enjoy debating like this. This isnt REAL debating. You don't know how to properly debate. Im sorry, you dont.

HA HA HA HA
The earliest references to Jebel Musa as Mount Sinai or Mount Sinai being located in the present day Sinai Peninsula are inconclusive. There is evidence that prior to 100 CE, well before the Christian monastic period, Jewish sages equated Jebel Musa with Mount Sinai. Graham Davies of Cambridge University argues that early Jewish pilgrimages identified Jebel Musa as Mount Sinai and this identification was later adopted by the Christian pilgrims.[26][27] R. K. Harrison states that, “Jebel Musa . . . seems to have enjoyed special sanctity long before Christian times, culminating in its identification with Mt. Sinai."[28] In the second and third centuries BCE Nabataeans were making pilgrimages there, which is indicated in part by inscriptions discovered in the area.[29]

For a place to be the real location, all the things have to match. And they all match with the arabia location. I go where the evidence lands.

Exactly my point. You are that kooky guy online who says "all the experts are wrong" as if that's actually a valid point. When ever people resort to "I'm right and all the experts are wrong" they have lost.

There wrong IF there wrong. And there not right just because they have a PHD. PHD is not evidence. Evidence is evidence. And what i gave you IS RAW evidence.

See. It's not your silly mythology it's the entire world of scientific archeology that's wrong.
Thank you for conceding.

So every archeologist agrees with you? Every single one of them? Reminds me of your additude of thinking every single ancient at first was a sun worshiper.

And again. You started out with wanting sources with references to exact page numbers by scholars and now it's just pure denial and "everyone is wrong except me".

You can twist things all you want, but what i want is for you to explain that black top on the mountain.

Once you go irrational your done.
What do you think, I'm supposed to keep posting facts and scholarship while you sit around going "they're wrong, stupid educated people..."

Is there a black top mountain over there? Is that not a fact that needs explanation?

You don't seem to know what a red herring is?

Get real man.

I haven't manipulated anything, I really don't need to? This argument wins itself because you have no evidence.

Get real. This is loged in my mind along with your red herrings and your past contradiction i pointed out too.

What are you talking about? First "those archeologists who dont believe in the bible" is ALL THE ARCHEOLOGISTS basically?

How do you know ALL archeologists agree with you?

Second, your suggesting archeologists purposely change the timeline to the WRONG TIME so the bible appears to be more true?

If the "wrong" time makes all the evidence match the bible allot, how do you know they got things at the "right" time?

As if they have no idea how to date things????

Question everything. Your living in the matrix.

The date doesn't matter, NO MYTH IS REAL.

The date does matter and not everyrhing is a myth. But, good going on the preaching again.

Jesus, Romulus and whoever is never going to be found to be real no matter what "timeline" things are put in?

Jesus, romulus and whoever else needs to be dealt seperately and on there own accord.

No, this information isn't for you. Way back I figured out that you have no interest in approaching reality with logic and critical thinking. You just pretended you did at first with all the "give me sources and page numbers".
And yes, that was pretend. Turns out that you really don't care about science, facts or any knowledge that goes against your fantasy.
It's completely delusional to even say I'm just preaching and trying to brainwash you?
Every single thing is backed up with some type of science, facts, scholarship, logic or critical thinking.
I started out saying religion isn't backed up by logic or history and you insisted it did.
NOW you're basically saying "I don't care how much science and knowledge you throw at me". Which is a complete 180.

Thats a twist, a false accusation and just wrong.

 

[Muffled]

So you think god decided to sprinkle the use of "12" all over all mythology.
Just like he created a 22 point scale of features that all mythological charcters seem to have??

All fiction contains very similar elements because god made it that way?
Do all blues musicians copy each other because god made it that way?
Do all baroque composers use similar cliche chords and passages because god made it that way.

Or is the answer people just like to borrow from each other.

Also we KNOW people borrow from each other in all arts, including literature, because they ADMIT IT.

But still, regardless of all that, your answer is god??
Ridiculous.

Now the early church fathers actually don't even agree with what you are saying. The early bishops in response to people complaining that Jesus was just like other pagan gods they were told that "the devil went back in history to make it look like that", there is a Latin term for it - Diablo En Historia or something like that.

Twelve is a composite number, the smallest number with exactly six divisors, its divisors being 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 and 12. Twelve is also a highly composite number, the next one being twenty-four. - Wikipedia

In numerology 12 is a composite number that becomes three. Three is a representational number relative to the Trinity and refers to the three spiritual states. Spirit outside a body (The Father) Spirit inside the body (Jesus the Son), and Spirit sharing with spirits common bodies (The Paraclete). When multiplied by four the number of seasons in a northern latitude, 12 results. In Astrology there are four types of signs: earth, air fire & water similar to the concepts of early Greek philosophers. If we take water for example: Cancer is the creative spirit, Scorpio is the destructive spirit and Pisces is confused and can go either way.

I believe there is a lot more to this but that should be enough for now.

 

[Jollybear]

People can say all sorts of things. If they do not do their homework there is no valid reason to believe them. Do you know who first made that claim about that mountain? The well known fraud Ron Wyatt. Are these opinions supported by any real archaeologists?

Ron is not the only one that went to the mountain. Others went over and verified it. Theres photographs and videos and even the arabian government put a fence around the mountain. So, they indirectly concede the mountain is real.

The issue isnt if the mountain is real, the issue is why does it have a black top.

 

[Jollybear]

@Jollybear: Just because they say it dont make it so. Not all scholars agree.


So your asserting, just because it’s a scholar that don’t mean anything nor does it make it true and not all scholars agree, so something else must be true? The implication is that, because scholars really don’t have an answer (or a sufficiently good enough answer for u) already, any claim can take its place, even though it has no supporting evidenced.

It does have evidence. And careful now, tammie will getcha. Shes gonna getcha.

 

[Jollybear]

Flavius Josephus - Complete Works and Writings

Josephus says

"Moses went up to a mountain that lay between Egypt and Arabia, which was called Sinai, and was concealed there forty days, and that when he came down from thence he gave laws to the Jews."

Galatians 4:25 paul says

"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children."

And the mountain with the black top is in arabia.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ron is not the only one that went to the mountain. Others went over and verified it. Theres photographs and videos and even the arabian government put a fence around the mountain. So, they indirectly concede the mountain is real.

The issue isnt if the mountain is real, the issue is why does it have a black top.

Keeping idiots off of the mountain is not a concession. Where is the peer reviewed work that supports their claims? Amateurs can be very easily confused.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Flavius Josephus - Complete Works and Writings

Josephus says

"Moses went up to a mountain that lay between Egypt and Arabia, which was called Sinai, and was concealed there forty days, and that when he came down from thence he gave laws to the Jews."

Galatians 4:25 paul says

"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children."

And the mountain with the black top is in arabia.

What makes you think that Jospehus is any sort of authority when it comes to mountains in Arabia?