Science standards under threat in Arizona

[Audie]

He must have been a worshiper of false Gods. I know of no Christian in this day and age who thinks slavery was anything but an indecent practice. One that God put laws on at least for Hebrews that were made slaves. As I've told Subduction Zone, when I am using the word slave I'm talking about those who were made slaves to a brother in Christ at the time and age, or a Hebrew of that day and age.

Goodness,you really ARE unskilled in the art!
First your argument is that a slaveholder is acceptable and
prasieworthy unto god if the slaver is a nice one;
then you say slavery is indecent.

God praise the indecent?

Anyone can see that Abe Lincoln was in no way sayng
he supports slavery in that quote, his message is entirely
the opposite.

Your takeaway? That he worshiped a false god,
and, apparently, that he supported slavery.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Are you kidding?

Of course I had a relationship with Jesus, until I realized I was deluding myself. So, before that realization, I was exactly where you are now. Born again, and all.

Ciao

- viole

Okay, this is new ground for me. Please tell me about the nature of your relationship. For example, I pray, my prayers come true, and I ask God for guidance, and He guides me, and I ask for healings and miracles, and see same.

 

[viole]

Okay, this is new ground for me. Please tell me about the nature of your relationship. For example, I pray, my prayers come true, and I ask God for guidance, and He guides me, and I ask for healings and miracles, and see same.

Yes, I was doing the same. And I was dead sure He was answering my prayers. I always found ways that fitted with an answer to a prayer. I was even an YEC, baptized on one of our rivers. That was when I accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour
And started having a close relationship. It was different from a religion, or like going to church. It was awesome. And everybody told me I was saved and part of a community living in grace.

Until I sat and started thinking about my faith, and I realized I was deluding myself. Actually, that took a few years. And here I am.

Ciao

- viole.

 

[Audie]

Yes, I was doing the same. And I was dead sure He was answering my prayers. I always found ways that fitted with an answer to a prayer. I was even an YEC, baptized on one of our rivers. That was when I accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour
And started having a close relationship. It was different from a religion, or like going to church. It was awesome. And everybody told me I was saved and part of a community living in grace.

Until I sat and started thinking about my faith, and I realized I was deluding myself. Actually, that took a few years. And here I am.

Ciao

- viole.

I expect every last religion / faith, and all their subsets
work pretty much the same way.

Prayers answered, healings, guidance, miracles.

Probably hard to find a religion from the cities to the
jungles, from ancient times to the present, that
does not have those, and people who fervently
believe they get those things.

And not a one can ever demonstrate that any of it
actually works.

What might be a logical conclusion to draw from
that?

 

[viole]

I expect every last religion / faith, and all their subsets
work pretty much the same way.

Prayers answered, healings, guidance, miracles.

Probably hard to find a religion from the cities to the
jungles, from ancient times to the present, that
does not have those, and people who fervently
believe they get those things.

And not a one can ever demonstrate that any of it
actually works.

What might be a logical conclusion to draw from
that?

This is actually the killer point.

Any miracle, apparition, revelation, answering to prayer, etc. that we ascribe as evidence for our faith, should also prove the faith of the competition, since they make the exact same claims. And, ceteris paribus, with the same evidence.

On the othe4 hand, being skeptical of miracle claims about the competition undermines all claims of miracles of our own creed. Because, again, they both are presented with the same evidence.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Skwim]

I’ve Never said slavery was alright. Let alone in this day and age. We are discussing a time and place where slavery was the law.

My mistake then.

.

 

[Audie]

My mistake then.

.

Is it?

I do not see how anyone can reconcile saying it is not
ok, but it is ok if.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yes, I was doing the same. And I was dead sure He was answering my prayers. I always found ways that fitted with an answer to a prayer. I was even an YEC, baptized on one of our rivers. That was when I accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour
And started having a close relationship. It was different from a religion, or like going to church. It was awesome. And everybody told me I was saved and part of a community living in grace.

Until I sat and started thinking about my faith, and I realized I was deluding myself. Actually, that took a few years. And here I am.

Ciao

- viole.

So, prayers were answered and circumstances orchestrated. And, like me, you heard from Christ within, and you had peace that surpasses understanding, and ecstatic worship, and saw healings and miracles?

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

ID is not a scientific theory. Hence the reason it isn't taught as one in science classrooms.

That is what I said. ID does not have a STANDARD 'go to' theory of ID. It isn't that the material is not there. The problem is the same thing that split the church into so many denominations and even sub groups in the same denomination. That problem is politics and disagreements. We could have an ID theory today if not for that. So the Church needs to organize all the denominations along with other theist & ID friendly professionals and organizations. If the church is unable to organize for what ever reasons they should not be part of the big plan.Eliminating the church does not mean ID theory should be secular, just void of organized worship. There are many PhD enabled christian apologists, and some scientists and other professionals that are ID friendly etc. We theists etc have been shooting ourselves in the foot for the above reasons! We are our own worse enemy. So yes, I agree, until there is an ID theory, a standard ID theory it is not public school material.

 

[SkepticThinker]

That is what I said. ID does not have a STANDARD 'go to' theory of ID. It isn't that the material is not there. The problem is the same thing that split the church into so many denominations and even sub groups in the same denomination. That problem is politics and disagreements. We could have an ID theory today if not for that. So the Church needs to o and the ID theory should be not secular but void of organized groups. There are some PhD enabled christian apologists, and some scientists and other professionals that are ID friendly etc. We theists etc have been shooting ourselves in the foot for the above reasons! We are our own worse enemy. So yes, I agree until there is an ID theory a standard ID theory it is not public school material.

Evolution is a fact. It is supported by all available evidence. The theory of evolution is the scientific theory that provides a comprehensive explanation for the fact of evolution. And thus, belongs in a science classroom.

Intelligent design is not a scientific theory because it's neither supported by scientific evidence nor does it actually have any explanatory power. And thus, has no place in a science classroom.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

Not only is ID not science, but it will never get a standard theory. It's also illegal, so have fun with that.

Its a new world my friend, a new TRUMP world, a world with Trump installed supreme court Judges, a new world that is growing a bit less tolerant of failed Socialist left wing influence and policies. It will be I predict a new world (USA) embraces 'old' timeless wisdom of the Constitution. Again we will eventually become a true Constitutional Federal Republic. So when ID become more organized it becomes richer, funding more PACs, funding more challenges to the bad laws etc are little more than an attack on religion. Its in that environment that ID will become legal to teach in public schools. Today the left has been successful in converting the USA to a godless or secular socialist country, and that awful fact is about to change. The sooner the better, Amen?

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

Evolution is a fact. It is supported by all available evidence. The theory of evolution is the scientific theory that provides a comprehensive explanation for the fact of evolution. And thus, belongs in a science classroom.

Intelligent design is not a scientific theory because it's neither supported by scientific evidence nor does it actually have any explanatory power. And thus, has no place in a science classroom.

Parts of the ever changing theory of evolution factual, as defined by our good but not infallible science. Every detail of evolution hasn't been ' proven' by empirical methods. However evolution is the best guess we have today if we can accept science on its questionable history etc. Lets not forget that ID is becoming more science oriented while 'hard' science is becoming more metaphysical. This metaphysical addition occurs mainly in advanced theories, most being theories of particle physics etc. So it may not be long before a standard theory of ID is created. Then maybe the environment created by Trump etc will be more susceptible to approve such an ID theory.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

Yes, I was doing the same. And I was dead sure He was answering my prayers. I always found ways that fitted with an answer to a prayer. I was even an YEC, baptized on one of our rivers. That was when I accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour
And started having a close relationship. It was different from a religion, or like going to church. It was awesome. And everybody told me I was saved and part of a community living in grace.

Until I sat and started thinking about my faith, and I realized I was deluding myself. Actually, that took a few years. And here I am.

Ciao

- viole.

I began accepting that science could describe and define everything, and so I did not need or want God. To ask why I did not believe in God I usually refused to answer because I knew my reply would not be understood or worse an argument would happen and usually that turned ugly. To me asking does God exist was an meaningless question! If the answer to a question could not be proven by empirical means it was meaningless for self explanatory reasons! However that changed. I was using an faulty assumption that empirical science was the best tool to define reality and to model my reality upon. I considered it and math to be almost infallible. I was devastated really to learn otherwise. So today I believe in a creator which describes the natural and supernatural or metaphysical world and I do worship using the christian religion as my personal way to live my life.

 

[Audie]

I began accepting that science could describe and define everything, and so I did not need or want God. To ask why I did not believe in God I usually refused to answer because I knew my reply would not be understood or worse an argument would happen and usually that turned ugly. To me asking does God exist was an meaningless question! If the answer to a question could not be proven by empirical means it was meaningless for self explanatory reasons! However that changed. I was using an faulty assumption that empirical science was the best tool to define reality and to model my reality upon. I considered it and math to be almost infallible. I was devastated really to learn otherwise. So today I believe in a creator which describes the natural and supernatural or metaphysical world and I do worship using the christian religion as my personal way to live my life.

So the pedulum swings from one ignorant extreme
to another. Terrif.

 

[viole]

So, prayers were answered and circumstances orchestrated. And, like me, you heard from Christ within, and you had peace that surpasses understanding, and ecstatic worship, and saw healings and miracles?

Yes, but I was deluding myself. I mean, just forcing myself to go out of the God system, and I ralized a multitude of logical absurdities. And Jesus giving his life for us? I mean, that did not look much of sacrifice when you know you come back. Looked suddenly like a joke, actually.

And all miracles were internal medicine miracles, ergo maybe no miracle at all. Never saw am amputee growing a new arm, independently of the amount of prayers.

I would have stayed, if I did.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

I began accepting that science could describe and define everything, and so I did not need or want God. To ask why I did not believe in God I usually refused to answer because I knew my reply would not be understood or worse an argument would happen and usually that turned ugly. To me asking does God exist was an meaningless question! If the answer to a question could not be proven by empirical means it was meaningless for self explanatory reasons! However that changed. I was using an faulty assumption that empirical science was the best tool to define reality and to model my reality upon. I considered it and math to be almost infallible. I was devastated really to learn otherwise. So today I believe in a creator which describes the natural and supernatural or metaphysical world and I do worship using the christian religion as my personal way to live my life.

Well, for me it is easy to answer the God question when asked. I just borrow a known phrase

i do not believe in God for the same reasons I do not believe in Mother Goose. Or Pinocchio. Or Apollo. Or garden fairies. Etc.

Since the evidence is the same, I see no logical reason to favor one over the others.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Jose Fly]

Its a new world my friend, a new TRUMP world, a world with Trump installed supreme court Judges, a new world that is growing a bit less tolerant of failed Socialist left wing influence and policies. It will be I predict a new world (USA) embraces 'old' timeless wisdom of the Constitution. Again we will eventually become a true Constitutional Federal Republic. So when ID become more organized it becomes richer, funding more PACs, funding more challenges to the bad laws etc are little more than an attack on religion. Its in that environment that ID will become legal to teach in public schools. Today the left has been successful in converting the USA to a godless or secular socialist country, and that awful fact is about to change. The sooner the better, Amen?

Conspicuous by its absence in your post.....any mention of ID creationists doing solid science to demonstrate the scientific validity of their beliefs, which would thereby justify including them in science curricula.

But I guess you at least made it quite clear that ID creationism is a social/political movement rather than genuine science.

 

[Jose Fly]

And to close the loop on the topic of this thread.....

Victory in Arizona

The Arizona state board of education voted 6-4 to adopt a new set of state science standards at its October 22, 2018, meeting. These standards were recently revised in accordance with recommendations from the Arizona Science Teachers Association to restore the concepts of speciation and common ancestry as well as high school-level standards about climate change, which were previously deleted.

"The revised standards approval received thunderous applause from educators and education advocates sitting in the boardroom," reported the Arizona Republic (October 22, 2018). The vote came after a series of attempts by Superintendent of Public Instruction Diane Douglas to compromise the treatment of evolution in the standards in particular, as NCSE previously reported.

“This is a tremendous victory for Arizona science education," commented NCSE’s executive director Ann Reid. "Only with a scientifically accurate and pedagogically appropriate treatment of evolution and climate change in their state science standards – and in their textbooks and classrooms – will Arizona's public school students be adequately prepared to meet the challenges of the twenty-first century."​

 

[gnostic]

Its a new world my friend, a new TRUMP world, a world with Trump installed supreme court Judges, a new world that is growing a bit less tolerant of failed Socialist left wing influence and policies. It will be I predict a new world (USA) embraces 'old' timeless wisdom of the Constitution. Again we will eventually become a true Constitutional Federal Republic. So when ID become more organized it becomes richer, funding more PACs, funding more challenges to the bad laws etc are little more than an attack on religion. Its in that environment that ID will become legal to teach in public schools. Today the left has been successful in converting the USA to a godless or secular socialist country, and that awful fact is about to change. The sooner the better, Amen?

Oh, ok, you want to go back the old ways, where it allow for slave trades, enslaving the Black Americans, take Way their voting rights?

No to be undone, then you can go back to time women were allowed to vote to, and you can re-start exterminating Native Americans. All go back to the days, where everybody think they are cowboys and shoot and hang people for no specific reasons.

Yes, you can go back to the good old days.

 

[gnostic]

I found faults with church, not because of any debate between evolution and creation, or science vs religion.

I found faults because reading the the gospels particularly those pertaining to the messianic prophecies were faulty interpretations of some OT passages.

It simply didn’t add up. And the more I examine the Bible more deeply, the faulty assumptions I found.

Eventually it did lead me to questioned Genesis creation and Flood, but that didn’t happened until a few years later.

George Bush junior, trying to promote ID into American public schools only reinforced my view on creationism being a matter of propaganda and politics.