God talking

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm still confused--pardon my confusion, for example, you wrote:

"The gift becomes the product of the mind and heart. I dont see love and gifts without action."

What does a two-year-old child do in their mind and heart to deserve a birthday gift? Because mine:

* Cried, sometimes not for food or needs other than attention
* Fought with others and stole their toys
* Were incapable of expressing much devotion or sincerity with their mind and heart

We gave them gifts because we loved them and expected no return. If I lend you five dollars, I expect a return. If I gift you five dollars, I expect no return.

My parent gave us gifts as a teaching tool

rather than something free. So, as an infant, she say things like good-job to promote positivity. Even though the child doesnt understand the verbal language, like sign language, visual language and action correlated teaches the child growing up that his actions (not his deeds-that comes later) are important. When that child is a bit older to understand, then deeds are correlated with actions. Stars are given because of good conduct. The child ideally appreciates this growing up. So even though the teen acts up, they still love their paretns and want as well as taught to work as a family because of it.

Its based on love. Obligation isnt somethng you are forced to do. It is sometihng you want to do.

Why dont you want to do anything for god?

I dont see salvation as a free gift that god just throws in your hands and then you can sit and enjoy the feeling of salvation, confirm it by reading it, but never do anything to live it.

That I find odd.

If I had a child (and we dont need to have chldren to understand child and parenthood), Id probably do what my parent did-teach love by action. Although my parent didnt have both, she just had actions, I see both love and action involved. Deeds mean nothing without love; love means nothing without deeds.

Salvation is a verb not a noun. Its something yuo do for and through god.

I mean, Im not making this up (not saying you said this)

James 2:14-17
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.​

The bible works together as a unit.

For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.
James 1:23-25
​

Actually, the book of James is my whole point.

It isnt deeds as in pride but deeds through, with, and from god. Salvation isnt something you are just given. The bibl works as a unit. Its omething lived.

You are given a gift in service to god. Thats why chuches have ministries and help people.

I mean, you dont need to use the word salvation and deeds if thas throwing you off. The concept is the same, though.

Colossians 3:23-24
Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.
This is a deed. Something you do for god.​

Your salvation is the bible. Its a service. The gift is a blessing to sevice. Youre not a child and you can think. So, you are not in the category of the examples yuo gave. No excuse. Its a service to christ.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sorry. Didnt know it was that long.

 

[BilliardsBall]

My parent gave us gifts as a teaching tool


Its based on love. Obligation isnt somethng you are forced to do. It is sometihng you want to do.

Why dont you want to do anything for god?

I dont see salvation as a free gift that god just throws in your hands and then you can sit and enjoy the feeling of salvation, confirm it by reading it, but never do anything to live it.

That I find odd.



Salvation is a verb not a noun. Its something yuo do for and through god.

I mean, Im not making this up (not saying you said this)

James 2:14-17
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.​

The bible works together as a unit.

For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.
James 1:23-25
​

Actually, the book of James is my whole point.

It isnt deeds as in pride but deeds through, with, and from god. Salvation isnt something you are just given. The bibl works as a unit. Its omething lived.

You are given a gift in service to god. Thats why chuches have ministries and help people.

I mean, you dont need to use the word salvation and deeds if thas throwing you off. The concept is the same, though.

Colossians 3:23-24
Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.
This is a deed. Something you do for god.​

Your salvation is the bible. Its a service. The gift is a blessing to sevice. Youre not a child and you can think. So, you are not in the category of the examples yuo gave. No excuse. Its a service to christ.

I see some issues here, respectfully:

"My parent gave us gifts as a teaching tool"

I give gifts and have received them in the name of love, not teaching. When a friend needs $50 to pay a bill, either I pay it or don't, but NOT paying the bill teaches them to go out and make money. The very word gift means something you are denying.

"Why dont you want to do anything for god?"

I want to do everything for God, and have spent a lot of time and effort doing so! I want to do everything for God, but need not do anything to earn eternal life--Jesus earned it on the Cross.

"I dont see salvation as a free gift that god just throws in your hands and then you can sit and enjoy the feeling of salvation, confirm it by reading it, but never do anything to live it."

I don't see it that way either. Imagine someone steps in front of a bus for you--you go around telling people the wonderful thing someone did-died for you-and your life and personality both change forever! The Bible is clear that Jesus died for you.

"Actually, the book of James is my whole point."

The book of James defines that living FAITH saves, not dead FAITH, James agrees with the rest of the Bible, we are saved by faith/trust in Jesus, not by works, deeds, "showing it", proving it, etc.

If we can be saved by doing something, please tell me why Jesus Christ died and rose?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I want to do everything for God, and have spent a lot of time and effort doing so! I want to do everything for God, but need not do anything to earn eternal life--Jesus earned it on the Cross.

My point is, you are not doing anything to earn

You are doing this because you want to; it is a part of your salvation not as an obligation to keep it

You are living the gift not just receiving it on a platter, type of thing

I give gifts and have received them in the name of love, not teaching. When a friend needs $50 to pay a bill, either I pay it or don't, but NOT paying the bill teaches them to go out and make money. The very word gift means something you are denying.

Thats how I was taught about gifts. Its two (or three) part thing. Its the intent (I give this because I love you), its the action (and you do this because you love me), and in spirit (we do this together because we love each other)

I don't see it that way either. Imagine someone steps in front of a bus for you--you go around telling people the wonderful thing someone did-died for you-and your life and personality both change forever! The Bible is clear that Jesus died for you.

The bible works as a unit. Not many people in the US probably would feel devoted to the person who saved them from the bus. They probably dont see there is a relationship between the act of saving the person from being hit, the person who saved, and the person being saved.

Gifts were always one with deeds (some sort of obedience to god). Jesus didnt see obedience as a bad thing. The prophets didnt either.

Its not force.
Its not earning
Its not ritual

Its something you want to do

The book of James defines that living FAITH saves, not dead FAITH, James agrees with the rest of the Bible, we are saved by faith/trust in Jesus, not by works, deeds, "showing it", proving it, etc.

Dead faith?

James talks about faith and deeds through, with, and from god

Deeds: Something you do with. in. from. god.
There are sooo many scrptures even outside of james that teaches this.

If we can be saved by doing something, please tell me why Jesus Christ died and rose?

Jesus died for a christians sins.
What they do is a service; a desire
Their gratitude because they are saved
Righteousness they get from, in, and by god

Doing something is with faith not a substitute for it.

 

[BilliardsBall]

My point is, you are not doing anything to earn

You are doing this because you want to; it is a part of your salvation not as an obligation to keep it

You are living the gift not just receiving it on a platter, type of thing



Thats how I was taught about gifts. Its two (or three) part thing. Its the intent (I give this because I love you), its the action (and you do this because you love me), and in spirit (we do this together because we love each other)



The bible works as a unit. Not many people in the US probably would feel devoted to the person who saved them from the bus. They probably dont see there is a relationship between the act of saving the person from being hit, the person who saved, and the person being saved.

Gifts were always one with deeds (some sort of obedience to god). Jesus didnt see obedience as a bad thing. The prophets didnt either.

Its not force.
Its not earning
Its not ritual

Its something you want to do



Dead faith?

James talks about faith and deeds through, with, and from god

Deeds: Something you do with. in. from. god.
There are sooo many scrptures even outside of james that teaches this.



Jesus died for a christians sins.
What they do is a service; a desire
Their gratitude because they are saved
Righteousness they get from, in, and by god

Doing something is with faith not a substitute for it.

I agree with you 100%, or if you prefer, 1000% that saved people should show gratitude, are commanded to do works, and if they do not do works, God will chastise people. However, the order is:

1. Get saved
2. Show salvation by actions

And getting saved is responding to the gift Christ offers. The Bible specifically illustrates that salvation is NOT a wage in Romans 4, where it says "a wage is deserved repayment, but for those without works/wages, if they trust Jesus, they are saved."

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I agree with you 100%, or if you prefer, 1000% that saved people should show gratitude, are commanded to do works, and if they do not do works, God will chastise people. However, the order is:

1. Get saved
2. Show salvation by actions

And getting saved is responding to the gift Christ offers. The Bible specifically illustrates that salvation is NOT a wage in Romans 4, where it says "a wage is deserved repayment, but for those without works/wages, if they trust Jesus, they are saved."

The first part all I'm saying is instead of works being as a result of salvation, because it's not from self but from, through, and on god many don't separate it from their salvational lifestyle
It's not optional but something they feel devoted to do for god. It strengthens who they are in their salvation. It's using the gift not putting on the side after opening the present.

 

[BilliardsBall]

The first part all I'm saying is instead of works being as a result of salvation, because it's not from self but from, through, and on god many don't separate it from their salvational lifestyle
It's not optional but something they feel devoted to do for god. It strengthens who they are in their salvation. It's using the gift not putting on the side after opening the present.

I understand--you are saying everyone who gets gifts should show gratitude. However, since the Bible is two testaments--a testament being a will left by the dead--Jesus gives salvation to whoever asks, without demanding any kind of repayment or gratitude--the Bible explains that the nature of the gift we receive provides eternal assurance.

 

[Thief]

I noticed that (1) believers of both jehovah and (2) elievers in hindu god/desses

Talk as though gods have emotions, can do things, feel, and interact with believers. I always wondered:

1. When god talks to you, say "God said that we are loved; god saved us with his loving grace", does he say this to you directly? Is it a feeling put in poetic words? Is it from a sacred text that you internalize gods words as though god who spoke them are speaking directly to you?

2. I noticed in Hindu DIR, when someone speaks of, say, Vishnu (last Ive seen a good 'while ago), the believer spoke of their experiences in god as though god is interacting with them. So, if god interacts with you, you may say practically the same as above: gods love and compassion. Id have to find other examples, but the expressions are similar given regardless the religion, we have ideally the same senses from different sources.

Given that

When god(s) talk to you and interact, when you express it as god(s) did this and said that, is it (1) something you read and internalized? Someone spoke to you and said god loves you? (2) In your experiences and worship, do the gods communicate compassion and love? When you express it as though the gods speak and interact (which Ive seen it said in a Hindu DIR) something you "felt" the gods say and you find it best to express it in poetic language?

How do you guys express the gods interaction and from what sources (experience? Whatever) does it come and why do you express it as though god actually speaks and interacts and "gives" compassion?

and what would God have to say?

I AM!........???

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Jesus gives salvation to whoever asks, without demanding any kind of repayment or gratitude--t

You are totally missing my point. Totally.

1. There is no demand.
People do deeds because god works through them to do so (like jesus); thats emphazied in scripture repeatedly.

2. Gratitude is not gratitude if one feels forced.
When people do things for god its because they love him and they want to do for him. It is their choice and they feel god blesses them because they chose to serve god as their salvational lifestyle.

It is not something Must do; it is something you want to. In the bible, I assume no one, jesus included, were forced to serve their god; they wanted to do it out of devotion.

Its a basic foundational tenent to all abrahamic beliefs: its what you do for god.

God does ask as he does people and prophets in the bible.

Its not forced.
It is not demand.

They do this out of love.

I dont understand, though. How is service/deeds to god a form of domand or obligation for salvation when god works in and through you to do that deed as a salvational (rather than man-oriented) lifestyle?

Deeds are not man-oriented in christianity (and other abrahamic faiths). They are god-oriented.

Thats the difference.

 

[Thief]

God does ask as he does people and prophets in the bible.

most prophets live a tough life......and die hard

 

[Unveiled Artist]

and what would God have to say?

I AM!........???

God or you? I AM is in a book.

I got it! You are speaking for god without citing your source. That makes it difficult to know what god actually said or if its your opinion or interpretation of the source.

Can you cite an unwritten source to where we know you are talking about gods views not yours?

The same questions apply to biblical authors since they arent in a different sci-fi time zone.

 

[Thief]

God or you? I AM is in a book.

I got it! You are speaking for god without citing your source. That makes it dificult to know what god actually said or if its your opinion or interpretation of it.

Someone had to be First to say.......I AM!

in this thread.....are you considering THAT particular Person?

 

[BilliardsBall]

You are totally missing my point. Totally.

1. There is no demand.
People do deeds because god works through them to do so (like jesus); thats emphazied in scripture repeatedly.

2. Gratitude is not gratitude if one feels forced.
When people do things for god its because they love him and they want to do for him. It is their choice and they feel god blesses them because they chose to serve god as their salvational lifestyle.

It is not something Must do; it is something you want to. In the bible, I assume no one, jesus included, were forced to serve their god; they wanted to do it out of devotion.

Its a basic foundational tenent to all abrahamic beliefs: its what you do for god.

God does ask as he does people and prophets in the bible.

Its not forced.
It is not demand.

They do this out of love.

I dont understand, though. How is service/deeds to god a form of domand or obligation for salvation when god works in and through you to do that deed as a salvational (rather than man-oriented) lifestyle?

Deeds are not man-oriented in christianity (and other abrahamic faiths). They are god-oriented.

Thats the difference.

Again, I agree fully that God inspires us to works and deeds. This is foundational in the Abrahamic faiths, but salvation is only through Christ in Christianity.

 

[Muffled]

and what would God have to say?

I AM!........???

I believe usually not much but i have had Him teach me all night once.

 

[Muffled]

God or you? I AM is in a book.

I got it! You are speaking for god without citing your source. That makes it difficult to know what god actually said or if its your opinion or interpretation of the source.

Can you cite an unwritten source to where we know you are talking about gods views not yours?

The same questions apply to biblical authors since they arent in a different sci-fi time zone.

What is the difference between hearing God say something now and saying so on RF and putting it in a book for future generations?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What is the difference between hearing God say something now and saying so on RF and putting it in a book for future generations?

RF is real-time 2018. In the text (religious, history, etc) are based on past events and what people could have said in the past but we cant speak with them because they are deceased.

I can ask you questions and you reply regardless the medium; we can chose the medium in which we speak and we can speak in person.

With books, if I wrote the same conversation and you read it thousands of years later, unless you know me personally (not spiritually, but know me) then the information can only be "believed by faith" that what you read is what I actually said.

Thats the difference. The former is external confirmation of facts. The latter all internal confirmation of facts believed by faith.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Again, I agree fully that God inspires us to works and deeds. This is foundational in the Abrahamic faiths, but salvation is only through Christ in Christianity.

Salvation is in deeds and through christ because the deeds are in, through, and from christ. They are inseparable. Its a gift you use and appreciate as part of your salvation not something you give, tell everyone you received the gift but never consider it as part of your salvation of using what you were given.

You are separating the intent, the gift, the function, and the act of gratitude (using it).

Not many people do that. The bible surely does not (since it works as a unit). But its not wrong; it just means everyone has different preferences in living their faith.

 

[Thief]

hate to be a spoil sport......but....

has anyone considered?......God may have spoke to Hitler

 

[dfnj]

How do you guys express the gods interaction and from what sources (experience? Whatever) does it come and why do you express it as though god actually speaks and interacts and "gives" compassion?

I think people do not understand religious mythologies correctly nowadays. With the amazing success of science over the last two centuries and the rise of materailism/realism as being the only valid belief system people no longer understand religious mythologies the way they were written and meant to be understood.

Characters and Gods in religious mythologies are kind of like psychological archetypes. Before science most people had strong beliefs in animism. If you take Jesus, God, or Satan for example, people were thought to be "channeling" these spirits by their actions.

Or the Greek pantheon can be understood completely differently if you do not think of the gods as "out there". But as psychological forces coming from within. Or as psychological forces of a collective mind based in culture of a group of people.

It's not so much that gods interaction is like how we experience talking with each other. It's more like being in tune with a particular way of being symbolized by the God's personality.

If you are interested in archetypes here's a really good book with one particular mapping. There are lots of mappings of different archetypes:

https://www.amazon.com/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064

Another great insight into how religious mythologies work is the Power of Myth interviews of Joseph Campbell. This 30 second video answers ALL your questions in your OP:

Here's a cool video on the hero's adventure:

 

[BilliardsBall]

Salvation is in deeds and through christ because the deeds are in, through, and from christ. They are inseparable. Its a gift you use and appreciate as part of your salvation not something you give, tell everyone you received the gift but never consider it as part of your salvation of using what you were given.

You are separating the intent, the gift, the function, and the act of gratitude (using it).

Not many people do that. The bible surely does not (since it works as a unit). But its not wrong; it just means everyone has different preferences in living their faith.

I accept that the Bible works as a unit, I do not accept that I can find any one verse or passage, that, in context, says I have to do anything, even say thank you, for this gift. If I lend you money, I expect it back, if I gift you money--according to the Bible, I should give the gift secretly, without even telling anyone--and expect zero in return.

And yes, I'm separating the gift, function and gratitude since we've both given gifts to ungrateful recipients, and since the Bible says God's gifts are irrevocable. I've given gifts to two-year-olds and people who never thanked me and the gift did not magically disappear.

The Bible very, very, very specifically, in dozens of passages, contrasts the gift of salvation with earning salvation or demonstrating salvation and says very specifically, "gift, not of works," and "gift, not of deeds," and also, Unveiled, it says specifically, many times, "gift, not of Law," and "gift, not of human effort," and "gift of God, not of a person's will or desire," etc.

Indeed, I'm familiar with all the NT passages that SEEM to say of effort--and the closest is James 2, which is talking about dead faith/trust and living faith/trust. PLEASE be careful--IMHO, the Bible says that those who feel they have to help Jesus save them may not actually be saved.