• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Evidence of creation

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
The fact that there is a universe does not prove it started all by itself for no reason any more than the fact that you own a computer proves it just popped into existence one day for no reason. And since the universe is a million tines more complex than a computer, there is actually a better chance that the computer just came into existence by itself than that the universe came into existence by itself.

















t
I agree with that. There is also no reason to believe it was created by some intelligent agent, for the same reason. However, between the two choices, we must concede that there is nothing we have observed that has been confirmed to have come into existence through the agency of a supernatural intelligence, while everything we observe so far has a natural cause.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
I agree with that. There is also no reason to believe it was created by some intelligent agent, for the same reason. However, between the two choices, we must concede that there is nothing we have observed that has been confirmed to have come into existence through the agency of a supernatural intelligence, while everything we observe so far has a natural cause.
Depends on how you define "natural cause". Is a computer being built by humans a "natural cause"? Is a universe built by a supreme being a "natural cause"? If a computer has to be designed and built by an inteligent being then why doesn't a universe also have to be designed and built by an even more inteligent being? Just asking.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Depends on how you define "natural cause". Is a computer being built by humans a "natural cause"? Is a universe built by a supreme being a "natural cause"? If a computer has to be designed and built by an inteligent being then why doesn't a universe also have to be designed and built by an even more inteligent being? Just asking.


We know why a computer has to be built by a human being. We have no clue why the universe would need to be built by an intelligent being. I do believe this may be an example of begging the question.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Depends on how you define "natural cause". Is a computer being built by humans a "natural cause"? Is a universe built by a supreme being a "natural cause"? If a computer has to be designed and built by an inteligent being then why doesn't a universe also have to be designed and built by an even more inteligent being? Just asking.

Humans are part of the natural world, as are computers. Not all computers have to,be designed by humans. Brains can compute and are designed by natural forces. The computers designed by humans are far less complex.
Define your supreme being and provide evidence for it’s existence. Who designed the supreme being, by the way? If your answer is that the being always existed, then the stuff of the cosmos could have always existed as well, and we know the cosmos exists, so let's just skip the unnecessary step.
 
Last edited:

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
Milt said: "Who designed the supreme being, by the way?"
Well...theists think it was already there, in the `void`, waving it's hands around creating things, like planets and things, and dark and light and humans and plants...
I always wondered...who invented water...there before the creations ?
Even the Big Bang doesn't really explain that !
Forgive me, I'm still confused, as usual.
NuffStuff
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Milt said: "Who designed the supreme being, by the way?"
Well...theists think it was already there, in the `void`, waving it's hands around creating things, like planets and things, and dark and light and humans and plants...
I always wondered...who invented water...there before the creations ?
Even the Big Bang doesn't really explain that !
Forgive me, I'm still confused, as usual.
NuffStuff
well hey!

picture yourself as that Guy
who created light

who then wants to introduce Himself to a human......Moses

could you say to Moses?.....light is formed as a fusion of hydrogen

all you get in return would be a frightened monkey face on an old man

so......don't shock the monkey
tell him what seems a puzzle
and maybe he will think about it
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Would a cockroach look at a computer and know it was designed and built by humans? Of course not, because its primitive brain can't understand such things. Well, compared to God, a human brain is like the cockroach. It can't possibly understand. The difference is that the cockroach does not try to understand. Some humans try to understand but they are frowned upon by other humans who are like the cockroach and do not even try to understand. Or their brains just won't let them understand.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Would a cockroach look at a computer and know it was designed and built by humans? Of course not, because its primitive brain can't understand such things. Well, compared to God, a human brain is like the cockroach. It can't possibly understand. The difference is that the cockroach does not try to understand. Some humans try to understand but they are frowned upon by other humans who are like the cockroach and do not even try to understand. Or their brains just won't let them understand.
Do you think the cockroach is made in the image of Man, then, as Man is said to be made in the image of God?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Would a cockroach look at a computer and know it was designed and built by humans? Of course not, because its primitive brain can't understand such things. Well, compared to God, a human brain is like the cockroach. It can't possibly understand. The difference is that the cockroach does not try to understand. Some humans try to understand but they are frowned upon by other humans who are like the cockroach and do not even try to understand. Or their brains just won't let them understand.
so..... if I can't understand God
that makes me a roach?

(not far from real .....when I stand before God and heaven)

I might get stomped on!
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
0:28 - Whether they were made by beaks or paws, these homes have a universal purpose - to keep their owners safe from a dangerous world, as they give birth and make a family.
0:39 - It makes it a perfect bear hole. It's secure. It dry...
0:45 - ...the most prolific of builders. A bird's nest is no simple matter. Each [nest] must match its maker, large or small; whether from coarse red clay, or the finest silken threads.
The nest
From nature's most mundane materials, birds weave wonders.
Delicate circles of grass and twigs... elaborately woven baskets of vines... imposing castles of mud, and wood...
These are works of art, so skillful, so beautiful, it's hard to believe they were fashioned by beaks, instead hands.

2:15 - Every one of these fantastic creations tells a story.

5:30 - 6:30 Wow! Amazing!

The only evidence I know of thus far, for any complex, purposeful, well designed, construction, is creation.
The more complex the design - the more intelligent the maker, it would seem.
From what evidence there is, some form of intelligence exists in the designer.

I don't see how evolution can answer the question of how each creature learned its building skill. Furthermore, there is no evidence to suggest that the universe wasn't designed by someone, so I don't see why I should not believe that it was. All the evidence points to creation. What I have given here is just about 1% of the evidence which convinces me.

Of course, every house is built by someone, and God is really the one who built everything. Hebrews 3:4

So who created the creater? If everything must have a creator more intelligent than itself, then something more intelligent than your god must exist. If you are going to say the god always existed, then you are discarding that rule. If something can exist without an intelligent creator, then the cosmos can also be that thing.
There does not have to be evidence that the universe wasn't created. There only has to be evidence that it occurred through natural means. We only have evidence for natural means so far. Evolution does in fact account for brains of all animals, no matter how simple or advanced. Those brains along with instinctual guidance produces bird nests, burrows, etc. That is no evidence for a creator at all. You are going about it backwards. First you have to provide evidence of a god's existence, and then you can argue over what it may or may not have created.
If you want to disprove cosmology and evolution, you must take all of the accumulated data and fit it into a theory of creation without doing damage to any of it and not cherry picking the bits you like. Why is no such theory ever offered up?
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Milt said: "Who designed the supreme being, by the way?"
Well...theists think it was already there, in the `void`, waving it's hands around creating things, like planets and things, and dark and light and humans and plants...
I always wondered...who invented water...there before the creations ?
Even the Big Bang doesn't really explain that !
Forgive me, I'm still confused, as usual.
NuffStuff

Here is one hypothesis/theory:
https://www.quora.com/How-was-water-created-in-the-universe
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
Hey Milt, I already have read all the presentations, and many, many more.
But......where does the bible and the other scriptures fit in ?
In the bible.....wasn't the water first to be created, even before all the creations ?
Even before fire and nuclear reactions ? Even before light, as Thief says.
Oh well...confused I will stay, getting too old for this crap anyway !
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Hey Milt, I already have read all the presentations, and many, many more.
But......where does the bible and the other scriptures fit in ?
In the bible.....wasn't the water first to be created, even before all the creations ?
Even before fire and nuclear reactions ? Even before light, as Thief says.
Oh well...confused I will stay, getting too old for this crap anyway !

Sorry, Mu
Hey Milt, I already have read all the presentations, and many, many more.
But......where does the bible and the other scriptures fit in ?
In the bible.....wasn't the water first to be created, even before all the creations ?
Even before fire and nuclear reactions ? Even before light, as Thief says.
Oh well...confused I will stay, getting too old for this crap anyway !

Sorry, Mud.......I completely missed your point. You can chalk it up to too much wine....or not enough wine, depending on your point of view.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Well, I don't mind sharing, but for the same reason man will not accomplish the most basic and important things, is the same reason most men will not believe the most basic and simple truths.
So, rather than go from simple to complex, I'll do the reverse.

Take a look around, and take a moment to ponder.
What makes man big?
His skyscrapers? His money? His military artillery? His ego?:rolleyes:
Are you seeing the picture I'm seeing?

I see a picture of a significantly small creature - with significantly little power. The greatest thing man can do is destroy himself - if that makes sense.:)
What is man against one of the tiniest of creatures, or more specifically - one of the tiniest organisms.
The mosquito is so tiny, and a virus - tinier - in fact the tiniest of it's kind... so far.

Anyway, I don't want to bore you with a long talk, so I will speed along.
The tiniest things, man don't even seem to be able to defeat.
What is he against little above tiny?

How about when the stakes are raised? What we call, the forces of nature.
And then there is the bigger things we don't even see.

What is he now?
Do you realize that all these forces seem to work in an organized way - magnetism etc.
The power in nature is vastly superior to man who becomes like a drop in a bucket.

Now for the simple.
The insignificant creature can build. He can build starting with the basic - a house.
Yet everything else including him, had no builder - no designer. Makes sense?
Actually, no science supports this.

When we look at man's design, we see there is always purpose for the design, and his design tells us a lot about him - the designer.
Yet natures design tells us that it had no designer. Makes sense?

To me. No.
From the most insignificant, to the most significant, everything tells us it owns it's existence to a designer.
There is purpose in every design, and we can learn much from the design about the designer.

This makes sense to me.
Romans 1:20
.
..God’s invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly observed in what he made. As a result, people have no excuse.
Hebrews 3:4
After all, every house has a builder, but the builder of everything is God.

Now you ask some questions - worth answering.

So who created the creater? If everything must have a creator more intelligent than itself, then something more intelligent than your god must exist.
I think you already know the answer to this.
In geometry, a shape is made up of - could be, lines, triangles, quads - depending on what the shape is.
The bottom line is though, the most basic shape construct - a line - is made up of points, or a series of points.
However, can anything exist without a point? No. In order to get any shape you need to start with a point, but we never question what makes up a point, do we?
We accept that an exact location in space must be called, in order for us to get our shape.
It is pointless questioning who created the creator.
So onto the next...

If something can exist without an intelligent creator, then the cosmos can also be that thing.
So let's have the cosmos always existed then.
Now I leave that for the science guys to battle out What If the Big Bang Wasn't the Beginning? New Study Proposes Alternative
Are you going to give it an intelligence? 'Cause my question is, how did it become ordered, and how did different forms of matter exist without a cause?
According to science, energy always existed, but matter in its various forms - How?
I suppose you are going to ask me how did my God exist in his current state. Well, my answer to that is, things of which my simple mortal mind cannot comprehend, I do not pretend to know, or understand.
So if the universe is your maker, and that makes you happy...

We only have evidence for natural means so far.
Of course, since you accept that the house doesn't require a builder, since it made itself.:smirk:

First you have to provide evidence of a god's existence, and then you can argue over what it may or may not have created.
I did. What do you want me do do now. I have never seen anything build itself. Have you? Show me.
If that's not evidence enough, then you might need to take a closer look at the design. What do we do with it. Copy every thing we possible can. Yet you insist it had no maker. That's not what I observe every single day of my life.
Neither does science - We observe builders even in the tiniest in the animal kingdom.
Like I said before. There is a reason why most men will not believe the most basic and simple truths.

If you want to disprove cosmology and evolution, you must take all of the accumulated data and fit it into a theory of creation without doing damage to any of it and not cherry picking the bits you like. Why is no such theory ever offered up?
I don't have to accept data that can't be proven, and based on inconclusive theories. Why should I?
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Science says everything came from an explosion, a "big bang". I have never seen an explosion create anything. Explosions only destroy. Wouldn't it be great if we could take a pile of wood and bricks and put some dynamite under it and when it blows up there would be a new house? But it doesn't work that way. So why would a big explosion in space cause suns and planets to be formed? Not really very scientific but it is all science can think of because they refuse to consider a supreme being with powers that man can only imagine.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Science says everything came from an explosion, a "big bang". I have never seen an explosion create anything. Explosions only destroy. Wouldn't it be great if we could take a pile of wood and bricks and put some dynamite under it and when it blows up there would be a new house? But it doesn't work that way. So why would a big explosion in space cause suns and planets to be formed? Not really very scientific but it is all science can think of because they refuse to consider a supreme being with powers that man can only imagine.

Science does not say that. Perhaps you should study what you are arguing about first.

But tell me, at what point is magic necessary?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Science says everything came from an explosion, a "big bang". I have never seen an explosion create anything. Explosions only destroy. Wouldn't it be great if we could take a pile of wood and bricks and put some dynamite under it and when it blows up there would be a new house? But it doesn't work that way. So why would a big explosion in space cause suns and planets to be formed? Not really very scientific but it is all science can think of because they refuse to consider a supreme being with powers that man can only imagine.
I agree with @Subduction Zone science does not say this. You need to learn some basics of physics and cosmology and come back with a coherent argument.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Every science article I have seen says the universe started with the "big bang". Maybe we are looking at different "science". How about telling us your idea of how the universe started? Are you seriously denying the "big bang"? I think not. Please do us all a favor and explain. And why would something you do not understand have to be magic. I assure you there is no magic invilved, Just something science does not accept because they cannot see proof.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Every science article I have seen says the universe started with the "big bang". Maybe we are looking at different "science". How about telling us your idea of how the universe started? Are you seriously denying the "big bang"? I think not. Please do us all a favor and explain. And why would something you do not understand have to be magic. I assure you there is no magic invilved, Just something science does not accept because they cannot see proof.
OK. Calling it an "explosion" is misleading. Expansion is a more accurate term. Moreover, an explosion destroys because it produces a shock wave that hits objects that are initially outside the envelope of the shock wave and thereby exerts powerful forces on them as it passes. In the Big Bang model, there is nothing "outside" for the expanding universe to hit or pass. It is the universe itself that is expanding.

Lastly, the initial expansion is thought to have involved only radiation. Matter is presumed to have condensed from the radiation (a process called pair production) and the radiation and matter would have been mixed together in a state called a plasma, for about 380,000 years. Only after that did atoms condense from the plasma and light and matter become separated from each other, allowing the universe to become transparent to light for the first time. And this event is the first thing that we have observational evidence for. The light from that last moment of existence of the plasma ball is what we see in the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR). This is the famous "echo" of the Big Bang.

Everything before that is, perforce, speculative physics, as we have no observations against which to test our hypotheses.
 
Last edited:
Top