Abortion

[Subduction Zone]

What Zimmerman did wasn't illegal. But it was still wrong.

I am not one to let the government tell me what is right or wrong.
Tom

I agree. But I hated the politically motivated over charging of him. He should have been hit up with reckless endangerment. There was not a lick of evidence for 2nd degree murder, even manslaughter was excessive, but the DA rode the case to re-election. That was rather disgusting.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is how it's done now. It's illegal to use government funding to provide abortion.
The huge majority of PP funding comes from private sources, fees and grants. What the extra money from the government facilities is providing low or no cost services to low income people. Services like preventative care, pap smears and breast cancer screening.
Tom

Do you have some stats on that? I was arguing with my brother over just this point earlier tonight. He approved cutting off planned parenthood claiming that most of their money went for abortions. I disagreed. I suppose I could and should look it up myself.

 

[columbus]

Do you have some stats on that? I was arguing with my brother over just this point earlier tonight. He approved cutting off planned parenthood claiming that most of their money went for abortions. I disagreed. I suppose I could and should look it up myself.

I am not very good at that kind of search. I wish I did have links to that sort of statistics. My recollection, from years ago, was that government funding was around 20% of total funding and abortion about 5% of the practice. Their main goal with regards to abortion is to prevent them. Unfortunately for them, it isn't possible to quantify abortions that don't happen.
I've asked people on RF before if they would find such information and share it. I even PMed a couple of people asking.
I would like to have it, because I find myself in these conversations quite often. Up to date information would be handy.
Tom

 

[Sha'irullah]

I agree. But I hated the politically motivated over charging of him. He should have been hit up with reckless endangerment. There was not a lick of evidence for 2nd degree murder, even manslaughter was excessive, but the DA rode the case to re-election. That was rather disgusting.

Too true, I was shocked how the trial went and I wish the politizing never occured because a proper jury panel would have been selected. I think a lot of this just came down to the lack of jury selection which to me is a byproduct of news media becoming to itchy on the trigger and too quick to make everything even enter the political arena.

Being an a**hole should not be a political discussion, you can find an a**hole at your local 7Eleven

 

[Curious George]

How can you not see that? The government is washing its hands clean of an action, it is a lack of control. You believe that the government should exist to wiggle its ways into your life and tell you how stupid you are and treat you like an infant?

New Jersey and Oregon passed laws so you cannot pump your own gas and people sincerely believe if you pump gas you will smell like gasoline and that it requires a degree to pump gas. They did this to create jobs for underskilled workers and instead create idiots tenfold to jobs.

People scared to pump gas because they think it is a technical skill that requires a college education . . . .

This is the idiocy I am trying to prevent. People so incompetent that they do not understand applying a condom and using birth control toppled with the fact they treat pregnancy like a casual affair. Smart women do not gallivant around spreading their legs to any male they find amusing.

Again, I believe in freedom from oppression but also the cultivation of self discipline and responsibility.



Now you are confusing me because this has nothing to do with what I said. I do not believe the government should arbitrarily control who dies and lives, I am not talking about what the government regulates although that is still a topic worth discussing.

Not all medical services require the termination of another person's life so obviously I do not want the government telling anybody they cannot commit suicide or that they should kill a baby/fetus.



Not sure what you mean by this also as it seems out of order. If you mean is it right if the government funds Planned Parenthood then I would say yes although PP should keep a separate expenditure for elective abortions which could only be done through private donations or paid service.

Unfortunately non of that is helping me understand why the government paying for abortions is controlling.

 

[allright]

Its interesting that abortion supporters main argument is the unborn baby is less than human / the same one the Nazis used for exterminating the Jews

 

[Subduction Zone]

Its interesting that abortion supporters main argument is the unborn baby is less than human / the same one the Nazis used for exterminating the Jews

Actually the argument is that anti-choice people cannot show that a fetus, an "unborn baby" let's at least try to be honest, a fetus cannot be shown to be "human". If a person cannot debate honestly they can't expect to convince anyone. Most say pro-choice people say that they do not know, and not knowing is not a valid reason for opposing abortion.

 

[allright]

Actually the argument is that anti-choice people cannot show that a fetus, an "unborn baby" let's at least try to be honest, a fetus cannot be shown to be "human". If a person cannot debate honestly they can't expect to convince anyone. Most say pro-choice people say that they do not know, and not knowing is not a valid reason for opposing abortion.

If someone is hunting in the woods and sees something move, but isnt sure if its a man or an animal and shoots anyway and kills a human, is he still a good person or does it show he dosent care if he committs murder, hes got other priorities

 

[Subduction Zone]

If someone is hunting in the woods and sees something move, but isnt sure if its a man or an animal and shoots anyway and kills a human, is he still a good person or does it show he dosent care if hes committing murder, hes got other priorities

Failed analogy. You have yet to demonstrate that a fetus is a person. It is very hard to base a law on such a nebulous "what if".

 

[columbus]

Failed analogy. You have yet to demonstrate that a fetus is a person. It is very hard to base a law on such a nebulous "what if".

In post 607 you were referring to "human", now you're referring to the much more nebulous "person".
Part of the reason it was so hard to eradicate slavery and racism is because person is a very subjective concept.
Human, however, is much more precise. There is no doubt whatsoever that a fetal child is a living human being, if you stayed awake in elementary life science class.
Tom

 

[Sha'irullah]

In post 607 you were referring to "human", now you're referring to the much more nebulous "person".
Part of the reason it was so hard to eradicate slavery and racism is because person is a very subjective concept.
Human, however, is much more precise. There is no doubt whatsoever that a fetal child is a living human being, if you stayed awake in elementary life science class.
Tom

FUnny you bring this up because my own stepmother is literally so stupid that most rough definitions of personhood would not apply to her. On top of that is that if you believe your own cognition comes from the brain it is much easier to argue against than if you believe in a dualistic mind.

 

[columbus]

FUnny you bring this up because my own stepmother is literally so stupid that most rough definitions of personhood would not apply to her.

Speak for yourself.
My definition of person is pretty much "living human being". That includes the unborn, the disabled, and, well, pretty much everyone.
I'm certain that your stepmother would be a person to me.
Tom

 

[oldbadger]

Its interesting that abortion supporters main argument is the unborn baby is less than human / the same one the Nazis used for exterminating the Jews

But it surprises me that many pro-lifers treat children and the disabled as less than human. After all, many pro-lifers object to full government paid medicare for life for the disabled, and full medicare and education paid by government for all children up to adult age. All paid for by taxation.
It's an absolute 'must' that pro-lifers do support that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

In post 607 you were referring to "human", now you're referring to the much more nebulous "person".
Part of the reason it was so hard to eradicate slavery and racism is because person is a very subjective concept.
Human, however, is much more precise. There is no doubt whatsoever that a fetal child is a living human being, if you stayed awake in elementary life science class.
Tom

You are wrong, it all depends upon how a human being is defined. The definitions that I have found would exclude fetuses:

"A man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance."

human being | Definition of human being in English by Oxford Dictionaries

A fetus is none of those things. It is not a man, woman, or child.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Speak for yourself.
My definition of person is pretty much "living human being". That includes the unborn, the disabled, and, well, pretty much everyone.
I'm certain that your stepmother would be a person to me.
Tom

That is only your personal definition. Perhaps you should look into the definition of terms before you accuse others of not paying attention in class.

 

[Sha'irullah]

But it surprises me that many pro-lifers treat children and the disabled as less than human. After all, many pro-lifers object to full government paid medicare for life for the disabled, and full medicare and education paid by government for all children up to adult age. All paid for by taxation.
It's an absolute 'must' that pro-lifers do support that.

That is why we do it ourselves. It seems that you keep trying to justify communism. Have fun with that

 

[columbus]

That is only your personal definition. Perhaps you should look into the definition of terms before you accuse others of not paying attention in class.

Do you understand "Life Cycle of a Primate"?
Or not?
Maybe you don't think that human beings are primates?
You feticide rights people sound just like creationists. Science that doesn't support your ideology is beyond your comprehension.
Tom

 

[Subduction Zone]

Do you understand "Life Cycle of a Primate"?
Or not?
Maybe you don't think that human beings are primates?
You feticide rights people sound just like creationists. Science that doesn't support your ideology is beyond your comprehension.
Tom

Yes, I do. That does not make a fertilized egg a "human being". I supported my claim. Why can't you support yours?

 

[columbus]

Yes, I do. That does not make a fertilized egg a "human being". I supported my claim. Why can't you support yours?

Which part don't you understand?
Human individuals begin when a sperm gamete merges with an ovum gamete. Just like every other primate and every other placental mammal.
Google the science if you don't believe me.

That's what I am saying here. If you think I am wrong about the science, then support your opinion with some science.
Tom

 

[Subduction Zone]

Which part don't you understand?
Human individuals begin when a sperm gamete merges with an ovum gamete. Just like every other primate and every other placental mammal.
Google the science if you don't believe me.

That's what I am saying here. If you think I am wrong about the science, then support your opinion with some science.
Tom

You are now guilty of using a term where you have not justified your definition of that term. When I use the term "human being" or even "person" I can justify my use of that definition. When a person becomes a person is an ethical question, not a scientific one. Nice attempt at an equivocation fallacy.