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Abortion
- Thread starter Adamski
- Start date
What unique features does a foetus have that entitles it to moral consideration?
It has none, in my opinion, that aren't shared with cows or chickens, unless you include potential to become a human being.
Potential seems pretty abstract, to me. It might even include, say, a human ovum.
I'm also struck by our blithe moral inconsistency in applying moral consideration to extant humans (see Lyndon's post, above).
Murder is a legal term, not a scientific one. Science would no more tell you something is murder than something is slander.
Altfish
Veteran Member
No, I'm not dumb.
But I am pro-choice.
निताइ dasa
Nitai's servant's servant
Science tells us nothing about legality (if we define murder as unlawful killing) or morality (if we define it as unjustified killing). It doesn't make value judgement, we humans do that.
Science can help us provide non-moral infomation, but it actually can't form moral (hence legal) principles.
Science can help us provide non-moral infomation, but it actually can't form moral (hence legal) principles.
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The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Well there are people out there who claim to be pro-life yet believe a living, breathing woman should have less bodily autonomy than a cadaver (there are places where it's illegal to extract organs from a corpse without the deceased's express permission) so yes.
You can't murder something that isn't legally a person.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
I am pro-choice - however I despise the term and consider it a stain on humanity that abortion is even a consideration.
I am pro-choice because of the crime statistics. 18 years post Roe vs. Wade and the United States crime stats display a shamefully obvious downturn. Fewer unwanted children, lower crime rates. Shameful really. Apparently people are dumb to an alarming extent.
And the reason I despise the term "pro-choice" is because it is only a "choice" for privileged beings of this modern society. If a woman were to find herself pregnant, alone on a deserted island, I'd like to see her make her "choice" then. Pretend we're post-apocalypse - no clinics, no doctors - a woman is pregnant - let's see her make her "choice". The term is foolish, presumptuous - semantically broken.
I am pro-choice because of the crime statistics. 18 years post Roe vs. Wade and the United States crime stats display a shamefully obvious downturn. Fewer unwanted children, lower crime rates. Shameful really. Apparently people are dumb to an alarming extent.
And the reason I despise the term "pro-choice" is because it is only a "choice" for privileged beings of this modern society. If a woman were to find herself pregnant, alone on a deserted island, I'd like to see her make her "choice" then. Pretend we're post-apocalypse - no clinics, no doctors - a woman is pregnant - let's see her make her "choice". The term is foolish, presumptuous - semantically broken.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I agree. I rationalize it like this. In all parts of the person's growth is essential to be a person. If you stop the process early is no different than stopping the process of aging by killing a mid-aged man. Once conception begins, life does. Our brains don't have to be completely formed for us to have life.
meghanwaterlillies
Well-Known Member
Look into when Reagan was governor of California his cold war stats, Afghanistan, he changed his stance, the black and white games, even the yellow king and red, The jump in when he past the therapeutic abortion act (Therapeutic?) yes that was it's title. He changed his stance to be very against it. This is also in the sixties by the way. The act was actually only for endangerment, rape or incest. 100,000 times more than 518 abortions each year in office, the only thing that could trigger me to say that is possible, is Satanism meaning they would preform in a dark alley anyways. I mean even Russia had one of the most liberal abortion policies so this really was bad enough to the Reagan idea. Then look at his stances to go to the UN on aliens in the USA. 3 million got amnesty in his administration, the number far outreaches that, local cut down and then alien invasion. Pure Satanism on that. Which you can only speak about in light of Kennedy and some conspirators behind the civil rights committee. Number 2, the effects are mental hauser problems, bullying hard space and livng, out for a time. Then the push for "Nazi, nuzi, mari, ebla, from sumer and Minoan, inca, pyramids, henges, solomon, caligua, venerations, "angel brother and sister, father games" Jacob test strips, Xi, word worship, linear A and B, Apollonius, talmudic isn't really judaism to me, also quipo and a few more that blew." Where supposedly "knowledge points come from." Its not knowledge it's common sense and slow brainwashing. Then Reagan past the Insanity act of 1984, Vanderbilt. You can look at the reasons of why some pulled funding from them, and just recently too. With gays and the out form of aids that also came up and why Obama also selected particular stances on gays and marriages, blacks. But ironically even the hepatitis ran in mostly the baby "boomers". If you really want to bring murky waters up this how I guess but zero out the actors. By the way to swear on something and to make people debtors which a lot of people even from the time of the temple STOP doing. There is so gold. There is no Eldorado by which to swear upon in revelation there is no somewhere over the rainbow; anyways some already knew this because they are fake gold "depots." Why you get the hidden treasure idea from pirates just to see who is looking. Wars then usually don't make sense just the mind washing of it. "sometimes they point it out in movies."
Something I might add, the day that 1901 september 6 1901 mckinley is shot september 14,inside the Temple of Music on the grounds of the Pan-American Exposition in Buffalo, New York. McKinley was shaking hands with the public when he was shot by Leon Czolgosz, an anarchist. William McKinley was an American politician and lawyer who served as the 25th President of the United States from March 4, 1897 until his assassination in September 1901, six months into his second term. McKinley led the nation to victory in the Spanish–American War, raised protective tariffs to promote American industry, and maintained the nation on the gold standard in a rejection of inflationary proposals. The problem with this that they claim he quoted Stephen from acts and said lay not this sin to his rest, inversion Leon Czolgosz was executed, A Demonstration of the Electric Chair, and he was Jewish. Or supposedly or considered a dog. He was the DC verse AC, Edison’s vs Tesla’s ideas, That Edison used bullying to force out Tesla AC verses his DC power grid. He would do anything including use dogs as examples to make the public fear electrical power to combat Telsa and immigrant from Austria and he even tied up with a public display of the electric chair.
Now in 1984 Reagan past the insanity act 1984 after everything, why? The law passed in the wake of public outrage after John Hinckley, Jr.'s acquittal by reason of insanity for his attempted assassination of President Ronald Reagan.[1]:634-635 wiki... But this guy was the son of the Vanderbilt and world children's vision, Supposedly it was because he became a obsessed fan of Jodi foster who goes to "Harvard" become Hollywood anyways. If you research the group and then you'll find that they aren't full fledged Christian at the end and that even when they changed their stance because of Obama, Barry Soertoro (mino) which is a name deliberately pick to say that immigrations will snatch and move children in globalizations. Who cares that it isn't; Hillary Clinton picked or promoted the idea and the phycology behind that is to say much.
Also on the Nazi the games Obama looks much like a Tutsi and his wife a hutti to push the mind clasp of get together or UN will bust or push genocide or nafta or something like that even because people are not products same as the pyramids in mexico or Solomon's. It's just really not as easy to break hive mind on things like that.
Something I might add, the day that 1901 september 6 1901 mckinley is shot september 14,inside the Temple of Music on the grounds of the Pan-American Exposition in Buffalo, New York. McKinley was shaking hands with the public when he was shot by Leon Czolgosz, an anarchist. William McKinley was an American politician and lawyer who served as the 25th President of the United States from March 4, 1897 until his assassination in September 1901, six months into his second term. McKinley led the nation to victory in the Spanish–American War, raised protective tariffs to promote American industry, and maintained the nation on the gold standard in a rejection of inflationary proposals. The problem with this that they claim he quoted Stephen from acts and said lay not this sin to his rest, inversion Leon Czolgosz was executed, A Demonstration of the Electric Chair, and he was Jewish. Or supposedly or considered a dog. He was the DC verse AC, Edison’s vs Tesla’s ideas, That Edison used bullying to force out Tesla AC verses his DC power grid. He would do anything including use dogs as examples to make the public fear electrical power to combat Telsa and immigrant from Austria and he even tied up with a public display of the electric chair.
Now in 1984 Reagan past the insanity act 1984 after everything, why? The law passed in the wake of public outrage after John Hinckley, Jr.'s acquittal by reason of insanity for his attempted assassination of President Ronald Reagan.[1]:634-635 wiki... But this guy was the son of the Vanderbilt and world children's vision, Supposedly it was because he became a obsessed fan of Jodi foster who goes to "Harvard" become Hollywood anyways. If you research the group and then you'll find that they aren't full fledged Christian at the end and that even when they changed their stance because of Obama, Barry Soertoro (mino) which is a name deliberately pick to say that immigrations will snatch and move children in globalizations. Who cares that it isn't; Hillary Clinton picked or promoted the idea and the phycology behind that is to say much.
Also on the Nazi the games Obama looks much like a Tutsi and his wife a hutti to push the mind clasp of get together or UN will bust or push genocide or nafta or something like that even because people are not products same as the pyramids in mexico or Solomon's. It's just really not as easy to break hive mind on things like that.
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Adamski
Member
I'd have to research it but there is catholic teaching that talks about how close you are to the action
For instance if you sold medical equipment to planned parenthood it is sinful but if your ads the equipment sold it to someone and intern they sold it to planned parenthood without your knowledge them
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
You may want to be careful in asking are people dumb when you yourself reveal you have a misunderstanding of science.
Deathbydefault
Apistevist Asexual Atheist
Even if it could be considered murder, there is still the self-defense argument.
Jeremiahcp
Well-Known Jerk
It always looks bad when you call others dumb in shoddy grammar.
Not really. Abortifacients are ancient. The ones we have work better with fewer side effects, but trying to understand new and better ways to end pregnancy has always gone hand in hand with trying to understand pregnancy in general.
A pregnant woman alone on a desert island is in trouble regardless.
BTW: if she's alone, how did she get pregnant?
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
Yes, a fetus is technically "life", but prior to 21 weeks (after which abortions are only performed if it endangers the life of the mother; 2% of all abortions,) the fetus does not have any higher or significant brain function, only core basics. In any case, it is not a "person", "baby", or even a human, I would argue. They are fated to be a human, but at that point they are, scientifically, parasites.
I disagree. You can have artificial, hands, feet, transplanted kidneys, liver, blood, even artificial heart etc. (even sex change). But one cannot have a brain transplant. A person is only dead when he is brain dead even if all his other organs are healthy and can be saved. Thus the key criteria of being a person or not depends on the brain and the activity of the brain that we call the mind. This also allows one to expand rights to proto-persons like higher mammals that share some properties of the mind that make one a person. I would broadly agree with the psychological continuity view of personhood that was first proposed by John Locke and on which most of the language of rights is based.
http://www.philosophyideas.com/files/mind/Locke on Personal Identity.pdf
The key recent contribution is that psychological continuity of the subconscious states of mind are also to be added to the over conscious continuity and recall that Locke envisaged. A fetus before 20 weeks does not have even the rudimentary brain structure to support any subconscious or conscious mental states. Thus he/she cannot be a person on whom the language of rights apply.
The parasite terminology is completely wrong and should not be used. Scientifically no offspring or kin can be called parasites as they share genetic material.
Murder means killing a living person. Abortion means killing a potential person. Don't start criminalizing women.
Roman Catholics want to outproduce other cultures, so let them. Go ahead and make a bazillion children, but that is your choice as a Roman citizen. Don't put it on everybody else.
Roman Catholics want to outproduce other cultures, so let them. Go ahead and make a bazillion children, but that is your choice as a Roman citizen. Don't put it on everybody else.
There was that Mary chick who had something similar happen..