How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

I’m pretty sure I never said he was confused - he did. Yes of course Everyone sees it differently I 100% agree. Everyone’s viewpoint has value. My viewpoint is no more valid than anyone else’s.

Post 16601 ... This is what you said. "I’m sorry you’re confused."

Seems to me you said he was confused.

 

[Vinayaka]

I beleive the answer to the Last question did understand what you were asking.

This makes no sense. How can an answer understand something?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Im asking for clarification. Why would you tell me god may pull me from my comfort zone or already there unless you think Im lying (ignorant) and you know the truth?

I guess we would have to look and see before we answered. This is what God asks us to do.

If you like. I can care less about the dollar. The Buddha was talking to one of his disciples. His disciple kept asking his master whether things were eternal (justification of god/brahma). The Buddha kept dodging the question. Then he finally said he didnt know the answer because our actions determine spiritual jouney not whether or not we havee a dollar in our pocket.

I would say that is Baha'u'llahs offer.

To search before we answer. In His case the Dollar is, 'One God is the foundation of all Faiths'. Before we could say it is not, we would have to see if all Faiths in any way showed this to be so. If One or two did not make it clear out of lets say 9, then further searching would be needed.

I think you have more searching to do. I know you cant be hindu unless you decide to be a polytheist with no prophets. You'd be a hybrid buddhist if you believed in god. You cant worship bahaullah as a christian. You cant worship anyone but allah as a muslim or jew to god.

If your house has five rooms and the rest with other number of rooms, you may accept that. What you dont accept is yoh guys dont all have the same builder so the details you accept are surface level when you cant see the other builders of other homes but your own.

The statement you made about justification in ignorance is well balanced.

So how would you know? Difficult question, as you are getting this information from someone that thinks they saw a Dollar put in your pocket, its all 2nd hand.

Yes. Is it worth the search?

An observation I have seen in Hinduisim and in Buddhisim, that raised questions in my mind, may give us a path of further discussion.

What is the ultimate Goal you see in life in a short summary. On threads I have been linked to videos showing enlightened people in meditation, so detached that they neither eat nor drink, do you see them in such a light?

Goal: Be comfortable at my final death after lives of preparing for it. Not just materially but spiritually. How to handle surprises. How to control myself in pain. See suffering different. Dont watch the news.

I do. It shows they arent attached to this life. So in preparation death in tibetan buddhist so far i know, one only takes the basics. More attachments, more suffering. Its not for everyone.

I have deep respect for priests, monastics, and people devoted to ones faith. Keeps me at awe.

 

[Vinayaka]

Do you think every Baha’i Has a correct understanding of our religion?

Some certainly talk (more appropriately, write) like they think they do. That level of pomposity and condescending righteousness is downright annoying. But of course they just deny it, so what can we say?

 

[Dawnofhope]

A lot of abrahamics differ on the source (god, mind, or body). We all seem to believe we need right actions and motivations. Not all agree on the same god, what a mind is, and whether the body-say humanitarian beliefs-are the source of one truth, many, or no truth.

We agree on the virtues just not the source of those virtues

We agree on the virtues and that is very important. We agree to disagree about the existence of God. I think we are both comfortable with that.

I was trying to find the definition of mind/consciousness in Buddhism. I know it but I'll try to find a concrete definition from the suttas since it's explained in analogies instead.

Maybe you can put it better since this is your field of study

The consciousnesses (CN) is where we have our physical and psychological awareness
Our subconscious controls our automatic reactions (our actions)that our consciousness
Our unconscious (which I think its being debated if we have it) controls our automatic actions the body does on its own.

The iceberg analogy is a useful one.

The Dharma describes it as

Salayatana-vibhanga Sutta: An Analysis of the Six Sense-media
Consciousness: It involves physical and psychological awareness.

The Buddha provides a useful framework for considering our experience, and the state of mind that is conducive to practicing the dharma.

Subconscious (SC): Where we have our karma (for lack of better description)

You mean automatic actives that we are barely or completely unaware of.

The unconscious mind (UC): Is where rebirth happens.

By rebirth, do you mean escaping the cycle of samsara? Why does this have to be the unconscious mind. I would have thought the entire mind would be reborn ie CN, SC, and UN.

I describe it like PTSD.

You have the CN taking up the traumatic events say seeing a child die at war
You have the SC. The body reacts to things today that it did during the war.
Then you have the UC. The reactions in the SC is imprinted on the UC. It is also where behavior psychologist try to pick at the source that influences the SC and creates delusions of awareness for the CN to react from a non-existing war.

The analogy of PTSD is useful in considering how the SC and UC can profoundly experience our reactions and experiences. Certainly it can lead to cognitive distortions and cognitive dissonance.

In the practice of The Dharma, it would be:

Someone yells at us and our CN picks that up.
We yell back because of our SC reactions
Our action imprints what we do on our UC

Fair enough...behavioural psychology I suppose.

When we are reborn, it is because our UC has so much things imprinted on it that without constant purification (as in Tibetan Buddhism, for example) and meditation, in all schools, we will still be reborn having the same source (war), same reaction (attacking someone), and same immediate awareness (shock of being threatened to danger).

The mind is our unconscious. Our brain refers to our conscious and subconscious.

I see that what you are saying. I believe it is similar to the experience of being born again in Christianity.
John 3:1-7

The heart is just the emotions and sensations we get to our conscious. The love and kindness is from our SC. To a theist, the UC would be the holy spirit, soul, spirit, or so have you. Reuniting your awareness to god is how you'd define unity.

Buddha in His discourse mention happiness, unhappiness, and equanimity. Equanimity is the idea state where we are much less affected by emotions positive or negative, or six-sense media positive or negative. Through right action, speech, thought and meditation we achieve a state where we experience greater levels of loving kindness and genuine happiness. With this gift comes the responsibility to give in a greater measure.

In Buddhism, there is no god, soul, spirit, or what you would call heart. The UC isn't any of these things. It's purely defined by our actions that repeat themselves through rebirth. In nibanna, the actions are all pure. When all of our actions are pure, we actually die. The body and brain no longer needs to function.

I believe it would be more correct to say in my Buddhist practice there is no god, soul, or spirit. Not everyone who practices Buddhism believes and experiences what you do, and some clearly are theists and believe in a soul and after life.

Who the Buddha really was and what He really taught in regards to God, soul, and spirit is an unresolved difference of opinion between us. I prefer to consider it as a mystery for both of us to enjoy rather than a disagreement.

It doesn't go to god or anything like that. We actually die.

That is why Abrahamic religions (linear life-to death-heaven) is different than eastern traditions (Buddhism, life-death-life-final death)

Rebirth is extremely important.

I agree that rebirth is extremely important and to a certain extent, that is our mutual goal, to be born again. In that state we perceive the Buddha with our own eyes and ears and not through the eyes and ears of others:


In the practice of the way to Enlightenment, people see the Buddha with their own eyes and believe in Buddha with their own minds. The eyes that see Buddha and the mind that believes in Buddha are the same eyes and the same mind that, until that day, had wandered about in the world of birth and death.

http://www.e4thai.com/e4e/images/pdf/theteachingofbuddha.pdf
Page 66

Hope that helps with understanding the mind. I wish I had a lot of Dharma sources but a lot of info also comes from tradition and schools. As you said, many things aren't written down.

That has been a useful starting point for our discussions. Thank you.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I do. It shows they arent attached to this life. So in preparation death in tibetan buddhist so far i know, one only takes the basics. More attachments, more suffering. Its not for everyone.

Sorry very busy, have to pick sections.

This was about Meditation and links to people that Meditate without eating or drinking and people seeing this as enlightened spirituallity.

I see the same thing in the western world with the entrepreneurs and building a portfolio of wealth or motivational speakers that say you can all do it. A goal of self fulfillment.

The fact is this is not possible.

If spirituality was for us to meditate and not be a productive part of society then humanity could not feed or cloth itself.

If we all build a portfolio of houses and wealth, there would be 10 times more houses than people and a ruined economy. Etc.

There is a balance. Our spiritual path includes living this life and giving to all others. Our path is not for self, it is for all people, to do this we participate while also being detached from it all materially. When we do this wealth is not a bad thing, it is needed to turn over the economy.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm enjoying this discussion too.

Haha. Naw. You're describing the same context with abrahamic words. Higher/lower and submission arent sutta words. It's either hatred or love. Not a hierarchy. The closest I can think of hierarchy is when The Buddha talks about the different hells (not places, mind you) based on our stage of mind at death.

The thirty planes of existence
This deserves a thread of it's own.

Those thirty planes of existence do deserve a thread of their own. Going beyond the planes of happiness and unhappiness we have experiences that sound transcendental and arguably a realm beyond the material plane.

Yeah. Buddhism isn't an alienated religion as I read about Hinduism and from Hindus. On the other hand, it depends on where you live and what tradition.

I don't know about that, though. I don't know Muslim and Jewish view of good/evil, angels, demons, and how they define love, hate, friend, and enemy. These aren't universal words.

Depends. Many easterners look down to westerners and vis versa. Some thing we don't have family connections and don't understand what it means to be a community. They think we define love based on lust and affection while others have wholeness and holistic in their view of love. Even people here define whose a real Pagan and whose a real Native American, Buddhist, Hindu etc based on how one is raised, where, and how much they know the culture and language. Not a bad thing, but something to take into consideration before universalizing terms each culture and person defines differently in his or her own right.

I find Buddhism is a very accessible religion. I explored Buddhism during my years of search, lived with Buddhists, attended the Tibetan Buddhist centre numerous times in my hometown and used to live in their premises prior to the Buddhists purchasing it. I have read Buddhist literature and am connected to a Buddhist country (Japan) through my wife's family and of course our children have Japanese ancestry. One of my best friends is Buddhist. I have visited many Buddhist temples in Japan so I feel a connection to Buddhism.

We don't need to talk about much Islam and Judaism. We both have a common connection to Christianity. Some of the dualistic language of Christianity came from Zoroastrianism that resulted from the period the Jews were in exile after the Babylonians. Paganism and indigenous religions are another part of the story. In a sense Hinduism is very much an indigenous religion of the peoples of the Indian subcontinent. Buddhists teachings appear to be much more universal and the Buddha encouraged His disciples to spread His message, much like Christ encouraged the Teaching of the Gospels. All these faiths speak to the human condition and how to attain a higher plane of being. The Jews not so much as they were homeless desert wanders for forty years until they conquered the land of Canaan.

Other way around. The eightfold path practice tells us about the four noble truths. We understand The Dharma not by reading about it. Right view is a practice not something you learn about from suttas. The Dharma isn't the suttas. (It's not a sacred-book religion)

We all need to breath. Breathing involves expiring and inhaling in the right proportions. We do it unconsciously. We need to practice our faith just as we need to study it. They are not mutually exclusive but reinforce each other. The four noble truths are the map, and the noble eightfold path are the directions from travelling from one territory to the other.

Sacredness is in the eye of beholder. Live in Japan and see how most households have shrines set up with depictions of the Buddha that they worship and revere.



Butsudan - Wikipedia

Your experience of Buddhist will be entirely different from that of the average Japanese citizen whose ancestors have practiced the religion over 1500 years.

I think beliefs are on the back-burner because we don't build good karma because of what we believe but because of what we do. Practice confirms our belief rather than belief confirms our practice. It's not saying they have nothing to do with each other. It just means abrahamic traditions see beliefs as important. One has to know what one beliefs before they act on that belief. The Dharma teaches that one must act in their practice and when one acts, they confirm their belief. When I went to a Dharma talk in person in the Tibetan tradition, the teacher was explaining it as not to read the suttas and study it. Instead, go through the day, observe, and take not of different experiences you have during the day. When you come back to meditate in the evening, you use those experiences to confirm your studies not study first then attribute your studies to your practice. Samantics. I understand what you're saying though.

They are. I think we're picking hairs.

Yes. We are pretty much agreed. No need for semantics or splitting hairs.

Before The Buddha was here, The Dharma has always been here.

The Buddha didn't create/define The Dharma. He just realized it.

Think about it.

Did people suffer before The Buddha came?

Eternal Buddha is a cultural thing. I don't use eternal Buddha because he died. No rebirth. If he-the person-was actually eternal, where is he? Nibanna isn't a place.

So if the Buddha didn't create the Dharma, who did and who enabled the Buddha to realise it? The answer for me is God. The Buddha came into being at conception, just as Jesus did. However the plan to have a Jesus or Buddha has always been there as there has always been the Dharma IMHO.

NIrvana isn't a place anymore than heaven is a place. I would argue that it is a state of being that exists in both this world and in the next to varying degrees.

Actually, no. The Buddha just spread the word. He didn't create anything. He didn't create the problem (suffering). He offered a path of solution. We don't get well worshiping the doctor. We get well taking the medicine.

Our relationship to the Buddha or the Christ is different from a medical doctor. People used to revere doctors. Mercifully they don't anymore but our attitude to our spiritual Teacher should be very much part of our practice. If we don't at least respect and trust our teacher do we have any foundation? Part of getting well is respecting and trusting the advice you are given and following it.

When you talk about the Buddha just being a messenger, that sounds very much like Muhammad.

Gotta run.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Post 16601 ... This is what you said. "I’m sorry you’re confused."

Seems to me you said he was confused.

It wasn’t a judgement or said in a condescending tone, it was in reply to him saying the resurrection was confusing. If it came across that way I need to improve my communication skills. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Some certainly talk (more appropriately, write) like they think they do. That level of pomposity and condescending righteousness is downright annoying. But of course they just deny it, so what can we say?

I’m happy to be criticised as it helps me see my wrongs and helps me correct them and be a better person hopefully. So I welcome people pointing out my flaws, mistakes and imperfections because my ego often is blind to them.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So the resurrected Jesus saying he had flesh and bone and is not a ghost makes sense to you? Yes, I am confused.

You didn't miss it. Both of the Baha'is misinterpreted what I said. Wait... That can't be. Yeah, I was confused, but only symbolically.

You still missed the point. If the Baha'is are right, Christians have been confused and wrong about God for 2000 years. But what are they confused about? The interpretation of their own Scriptures. It took the Baha'is to set them straight... The resurrection isn't literal. It's symbolic.

Yes, and only one that isn't confused. All others are confused.

Yeah that's what I told them. Course I was wrong. I'm always wrong.

I think the fact that CG said he was confused and confirmed what we offered in reply, has sealed your purpose as entertainment.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Then why keep asking questions. You have no confusions that need to be clarified?

Or do any of these apply

The state of being bewildered or unclear in one's mind about something.

synonyms:bewilderment, bafflement, perplexity, puzzlement, mystification, stupefaction, disorientation, befuddlement, muddle

You could now give meaning to us, show us all clear as day without any confusion.

That would clear up the confusion you generate, as to why you ask for clarifications, it would show that CG is not just playing games.

Regards Tony

Let me clear up the confusion...you misunderstood and misinterpreted what I said.

 

[CG Didymus]

It’s simple. Jesus was a man and within Him was the Spirit of God. When He died His Spirit Ascended. The Spirit of Jesus lives forever not His body.

How were the Christians able to hide the body? And where does it say the gospels are sealed? And, is the story of the crucifixion told in the gospels historically accurate?

 

[CG Didymus]

I’m pretty sure I never said he was confused - he did. Yes of course Everyone sees it differently I 100% agree. Everyone’s viewpoint has value. My viewpoint is no more valid than anyone else’s.

Go back and read the first post where I mentioned the word "confusion". I think you're a llittle mixed up.

 

[CG Didymus]

We all have bodies.

You are connected to your body but you are not your body.

Christ was connected to a body but was not His body. The body and mind are not the same. One is a chariot and the other the charioteer.

How do you interpret the verses where the alleged resurrected Jesus said he is flesh and bone and not a ghost?

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, and only one that isn't confused. All others are confused.

I'm confused how all this confusion got started?

 

[CG Didymus]

Yeah that's what I told them. Course I was wrong. I'm always wrong.

Well at least you're not confused like me. I'm so confused I don't even know when I'm wrong.

 

[CG Didymus]

I think the fact that CG said he was confused and confirmed what we offered in reply, has sealed your purpose as entertainment.

Regards Tony

I'm confused why no Christians show up here to stand up for their belief that Jesus rose physically from the dead.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm confused too?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm confused why no Christians show up here to stand up for their belief that Jesus rose physically from the dead.

Perhaps, because its an indefensible belief?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'll be back to comment. I have the same book. I found out it is Pure Land Buddhism. I went to their temple and the owner of the property said its set up like westerners view (theistic view of Amida Buddha and Pure Land seen a kind of heaven) The language in the book. Light read. In The Buddha's Words is good Theravada view. I got both book and audio and almost finished reading the whole book of suttas. Mahayana has a lot of commentary books with its sutras. Theravada not so much outside Pali suttas.

The BDK foundation is Japanese based and devoted to promotion of Buddhism with ther blessing of the Japanese government. The book I possess has teachings in both Japanese and English. I think it is targeting a predominantly Japanese audience, though the founders wish to have Buddhist teachings available abroad too. It was in Japan, not a Western country that I acquired the book. However it is well translated and easy to read. Its great for a beginner such as myself, but clearly you are exposed a much wider range of suttas and commentaries.

Message from the Chairman | Society for the Promotion of Buddhism