How are these Great Beings explained?

[TransmutingSoul]

@adrian009 @Tony Bristow-Stagg

Read this from a Buddhist point of view/context not from a Bahai theist view.

Carlita - That statement made it not possible for me to reply.

Just thought I would let you know that.

My Buddhist view would contain Baha'i thought.

Before I became a Baha'i, I was turned off religion. The main reason was as each said they had the best way of interpretation, that none were compatable with another. The other reason was I wanted to know who got all the money.

I just shut down and walk away from that, sorry always have, my bad as to me it is too sad.

We could look and consider all views.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

And how is that different from the "man-made" traditions and interpretations of the other religions?

If you read the link to the letter provided, its from the research department on behalf of the Universal House of Justice. At the bottom of the letter there is a comprehensive list of all the Baha'i writings that refer to the book of revelation. So we have a considerable body of authoritative Baha'i writings on which to base a meaningful exegesis of this important and final NT book.

Biblical Verses, Interpretation of

However there is work to be done to fill in the gaps and that is where good scholarship is needed. The meaning of the number 144,000 is an example. However we know the difference between what is based on the writings and what is based on scholarship. With Christianity the lines are so blurred that many Christians can no longer distinguish what Christ taught from man made doctrines and beliefs.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Have you read the Hopi prophesies?

There is also quite a few mentioned at this link.

Baha'i: Prophecy Fulfilled Homepage

Mathamatically how do you think Baha'u'llah could be shown to fulfill so much Prophecy from so many sources and still only see it as chance?

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Sometimes its hard for us to have faith and believe, but Jesus said 'the truth shall set you free'. John 8:32

We've spent much time circling around the resurrection. Lets think again about myth, allegory and reality in religion. Consider the story of creation, of Adam and Eve, and then the flood in Noah's time. Remember we explored the first chapters in the book of genesis where these stories are told. These are not literal stories but allegorical. They have have profound spiritual meaning. The problem comes when we imagine they are literally true. Then we have a contradiction with known science and reason and we miss the point of the stories. So the intent of the author has not been to recount history but to convey a deeper spiritual message.

Why should it be any different with the resurrection? Unlike the stories in genesis where the origins of the stories are historically obscure, the origin of the resurrection story appears to be when the apostles started teaching a Greco-Roman audience about the Divinity of Christ, our relationship with God through Christ, and the nature of the soul. The language Paul uses in 1 Corinthians 15 and the difficulties as recorded in the gospels that the close companions of Christ have recognising Him and his sudden ability to move through hard objects are clues this is more than an historic account of actual events. Through the NT, we simply have a clearer idea about how myth and reality become interwoven, whereas with genesis we don't.

The purpose of the gospels was never to give a detailed historical account but to enable us to have faith (John 20:31). That is the intent of the gospel writers, not to mislead.

So if the story about Adam and Eve and Jesus are not literal but allegorical, how is that not a mythological story? But the people are real and are manifestations? Why are they mythical also?

 

[CG Didymus]

I don’t know. Although even in the Bible in Corinthians mention is made of a spiritual body.

The New Testament also claims Jesus had flesh and bone and was not a ghost. And it also says that God is not the author of confusion. Just within Christianity God has made everything confusing. Add the other religions and there is nothing but confusion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So if the story about Adam and Eve and Jesus are not literal but allegorical, how is that not a mythological story? But the people are real and are manifestations? Why are they mythical also?

This is why we see the importance in the Original Word in the Original Language and the importance of translation;

"It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity speak a twofold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions, is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may advance into the realm of eternal reunion. Such are the unveiled traditions and the evident verses already mentioned. The other language is veiled and concealed, so that whatever lieth hidden in the heart of the malevolent may be made manifest and their innermost being be disclosed. Thus hath Ṣádiq, son of Muḥammad, spoken: “God verily will test them and sift them.” This is the divine standard, this is the Touchstone of God, wherewith He proveth His servants. None apprehendeth the meaning of these utterances except them whose hearts are assured, whose souls have found favour with God, and whose minds are detached from all else but Him. In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally understood by the people, is not what hath been intended. Thus it is recorded: “Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.” He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.” Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 221-257

"Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted." (Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175)

"Not only do the words uttered by the Manifestations have inner meanings but even a single letter contains divine mysteries and significances." (Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 1, p. 34)

"We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain." (Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Iqan, p. 255)

A few more quotes ; Seventy and One Meanings

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

If you read the link to the letter provided, its from the research department on behalf of the Universal House of Justice. At the bottom of the letter there is a comprehensive list of all the Baha'i writings that refer to the book of revelation. So we have a considerable body of authoritative Baha'i writings on which to base a meaningful exegesis of this important and final NT book.

Biblical Verses, Interpretation of

However there is work to be done to fill in the gaps and that is where good scholarship is needed. The meaning of the number 144,000 is an example. However we know the difference between what is based on the writings and what is based on scholarship. With Christianity the lines are so blurred that many Christians can no longer distinguish what Christ taught from man made doctrines and beliefs.

I've asked several times, when did Christianity ever have the correct beliefs and teachings from and about Jesus? There seems to have always been confusion. They had to decide on what their Scripture would be. And then what it all meant. If the Baha'i interpretation is right, then the early Christian leaders got most of it wrong. 2000 years of false doctrines? That is what Baha'is are really saying. But for some reason Baha'is say that is not the case? I don't get it.

 

[CG Didymus]

This is why we see the importance in the Original Word in the Original Language and the importance of translation;

"It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity speak a twofold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions, is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may advance into the realm of eternal reunion. Such are the unveiled traditions and the evident verses already mentioned. The other language is veiled and concealed, so that whatever lieth hidden in the heart of the malevolent may be made manifest and their innermost being be disclosed. Thus hath Ṣádiq, son of Muḥammad, spoken: “God verily will test them and sift them.” This is the divine standard, this is the Touchstone of God, wherewith He proveth His servants. None apprehendeth the meaning of these utterances except them whose hearts are assured, whose souls have found favour with God, and whose minds are detached from all else but Him. In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally understood by the people, is not what hath been intended. Thus it is recorded: “Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.” He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.” Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 221-257

"Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted." (Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175)

"Not only do the words uttered by the Manifestations have inner meanings but even a single letter contains divine mysteries and significances." (Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 1, p. 34)

"We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain." (Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Iqan, p. 255)

A few more quotes ; Seventy and One Meanings

Regards Tony

So does that mean that Adam is religious myth?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The New Testament also claims Jesus had flesh and bone and was not a ghost. And it also says that God is not the author of confusion. Just within Christianity God has made everything confusing. Add the other religions and there is nothing but confusion.

The confusion is ours. I see in the chapter 1 Corinthians 14 that we will be confused if we use our own meanings.

To me this is the Instruction we must look at the Messenger as this is what these passages speak about;

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

That whole chapter is Lifetimes of meanings, but the ultimate clue in the Bible was that Christ had more to say unto us and that full meaning was still sealed until the end times.

Big, .....Big subject CG

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I've asked several times, when did Christianity ever have the correct beliefs and teachings from and about Jesus? There seems to have always been confusion. They had to decide on what their Scripture would be. And then what it all meant. If the Baha'i interpretation is right, then the early Christian leaders got most of it wrong. 2000 years of false doctrines? That is what Baha'is are really saying. But for some reason Baha'is say that is not the case? I don't get it.

It has always had the correct teachings and I would say for a few Hundred years before doctrine was the taken path. That all Christians were still discussing their own private interpretation, albeit they were having heated discussions. This was Interpretation they were warned not to use to replace the Word in the Bible. I would say many most likely read some biblical passages thinking they could interpret, for whatever reason they chose that path, we can now see what resulted.

Also consider 300 years after man had added to the Bible with Doctrine and Christianity had entered its Winter, God sent Muhammad to correct those thoughts and offered a new Creation with a new Spring of Revelation. Christianity rejected this.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So does that mean that Adam is religious myth?

There are manifold Meanings to the Story of Adam. Personally I see the Message of Adam as the Spiritual awakening of Humanity on its path of evolution. There will be an outward more reasonable story and many spiritual mysteries enshrined within the story. Abdul'baha said in His talk we linked to this, for us to Meditate upon the story, so other meanings may be shown unto us.

Adam I see as the Messenger and Eve His consort in all the Worlds of God. Likewise a Spiritual Interpretation of that is Adam as a Messenger and Eve is the human soul, as per this explanation - Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 122-126

Personally the time to do all this Interpretation takes away from our most important task in this age and that is building the foundations for the Unity of Humanity.

I personally think that if one decides to dedicate ones life to giving all one can to the rest of Humanity, with the key thought we are One Human Race under One God, then many many connections to support those thoughts unfold daily.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

There is also quite a few mentioned at this link.

Baha'i: Prophecy Fulfilled Homepage

Mathamatically how do you think Baha'u'llah could be shown to fulfill so much Prophecy from so many sources and still only see it as chance?

Regards Tony

Read all the "prophecies" claimed in the gospel of Matthew and then read how they are refuted by Jews. I agree most of the time with the Jews. Matthew seems to be inventing things to make into fulfilled prophecy.

Same with Baha'is and Revelation, too many things that make very little sense to me. The 1260 years is ok, but then you blow it by claiming the number of the beast, 666, is a year. Too many things are easily manipulated to fit prophecies.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Read all the "prophecies" claimed in the gospel of Matthew and then read how they are refuted by Jews. I agree most of the time with the Jews. Matthew seems to be inventing things to make into fulfilled prophecy.

Same with Baha'is and Revelation, too many things that make very little sense to me. The 1260 years is ok, but then you blow it by claiming the number of the beast, 666, is a year. Too many things are easily manipulated to fit prophecies.

It is like a big Jigsaw, that is one part of the bigger picture. That you are yet to find a place to fit that piece of the puzzle, does not stop you picking up other pieces and see if you can find where they go.

Personally I have fitted only a few pieces in place myself, but I took a sneak peak at the cover picture, so know it can be done

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The New Testament also claims Jesus had flesh and bone and was not a ghost.

Yes, the Baha'is also do not believe they saw actually a Ghost. They did not see anyone really. They created a symbolic story, and indeed they wanted it to seem so literal. They wanted it to appear to others, a literal resurrection. They wanted that. This is why they wrote the Story of Resurrection in such a way that it is very difficult to recognize they were speaking symbolically. This is how They sealed the Book of God, so it may not be known by anyone until the Day of Resurrection. But, they also wrote, the Book is sealed until the Day the Resurrection. Could God seals His Book in this way, and then When the Day of Resurrection comes, tells them the story was symbolic? It would also be a test of submission to God. God says something, then He appears to change what He said before, to test those who truly believe and submit.

And it also says that God is not the author of confusion. Just within Christianity God has made everything confusing. Add the other religions and there is nothing but confusion.

The verse you are referring is in the following passage of the Bible:

29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.


It seems to me this passage is related to how the Christians should act within their churches when they gather together. He says, speak in turn, so the churches remain peaceful. God wants order and peace for them, not disorder. The purpose of this verse is not contradictory to the concept of God's testing in anyway He wants.
He identically tested the Jews by describing the Messiah in Old Testament with symbolic terms. He told them, He would be a King with sword, who conquers east and west. Jesus grew up in a family whose profession was carpentry. He was crucified, and did not use sword. He did not conquer the world. Now, when Christ is to return, the Christians must be also tested. He told them, He went to sky, and returns. He comes down from sky. Again, this time, it seems different than what they would expected it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Kitab-i-iqan contains the explanations on this matter.

Page 55 at this link explains the case of Moses - Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 41-80

Regards Tony

There is an interesting Hadith from Imam Bagher, recorded in Bihar, which alludes to a similarity between Bahaullah and Moses:


“When the Qaim (a.s.) rises, he will recite:

“So I fled from you when I feared you, then my Lord granted me wisdom and made me of the apostles” (Surah Shoara 26:21)

Shiavault - 31

This is the verse of Quran regarding Moses, after He was known as one who had commited murder and fled from the king, He later proclaimed to the king that God had chosen Him as His messenger.

The parallel of this prophecy is, when Bahaullah was known as the One who had plotted assassination of the king and had been exiled from Persia, later He proclaimed to the king that, God has chosen Him as a Messenger.

What is interesting is that, Bahaullah in Iqan states:


"... Was not God, the omnipotent King, able to withhold the hand of Moses from murder, so that manslaughter should not be attributed unto Him, causing bewilderment and aversion among the people?"

I can think the same with regards to Bahaullah, that perhaps the wisdom that He became known as One who was behind the assassination was to test people of Persia. Even to this day, there are many who think Bahaullah had planned the assassination, and thus, this becomes an obstacle for them.

 

[CG Didymus]

Sometimes its hard for us to have faith and believe, but Jesus said 'the truth shall set you free'. John 8:32

We've spent much time circling around the resurrection. Lets think again about myth, allegory and reality in religion. Consider the story of creation, of Adam and Eve, and then the flood in Noah's time. Remember we explored the first chapters in the book of genesis where these stories are told. These are not literal stories but allegorical. They have have profound spiritual meaning. The problem comes when we imagine they are literally true. Then we have a contradiction with known science and reason and we miss the point of the stories. So the intent of the author has not been to recount history but to convey a deeper spiritual message.

Why should it be any different with the resurrection? Unlike the stories in genesis where the origins of the stories are historically obscure, the origin of the resurrection story appears to be when the apostles started teaching a Greco-Roman audience about the Divinity of Christ, our relationship with God through Christ, and the nature of the soul. The language Paul uses in 1 Corinthians 15 and the difficulties as recorded in the gospels that the close companions of Christ have recognising Him and his sudden ability to move through hard objects are clues this is more than an historic account of actual events. Through the NT, we simply have a clearer idea about how myth and reality become interwoven, whereas with genesis we don't.

The purpose of the gospels was never to give a detailed historical account but to enable us to have faith (John 20:31). That is the intent of the gospel writers, not to mislead.

So sure it's all allegory. That makes everything before the resurrection allegory also. And that makes everything after Adam and Eve allegory. None of the stories are real historical events. So the Bible enables us to have faith in what? Myth?

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, the Baha'is also do not believe they saw actually a Ghost. They did not see anyone really. They created a symbolic story, and indeed they wanted it to seem so literal. They wanted it to appear to others, a literal resurrection. They wanted that. This is why they wrote the Story of Resurrection in such a way that it is very difficult to recognize they were speaking symbolically. This is how They sealed the Book of God, so it may not be known by anyone until the Day of Resurrection. But, they also wrote, the Book is sealed until the Day the Resurrection. Could God seals His Book in this way, and then When the Day of Resurrection comes, tells them the story was symbolic? It would also be a test of submission to God. God says something, then He appears to change what He said before, to test those who truly believe and submit.



The verse you are referring is in the following passage of the Bible:

29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.


It seems to me this passage is related to how the Christians should act within their churches when they gather together. He says, speak in turn, so the churches remain peaceful. God wants order and peace for them, not disorder. The purpose of this verse is not contradictory to the concept of God's testing in anyway He wants.
He identically tested the Jews by describing the Messiah in Old Testament with symbolic terms. He told them, He would be a King with sword, who conquers east and west. Jesus grew up in a family whose profession was carpentry. He was crucified, and did not use sword. He did not conquer the world. Now, when Christ is to return, the Christians must be also tested. He told them, He went to sky, and returns. He comes down from sky. Again, this time, it seems different than what they would expected it.

So four gospel writers all made up the same lie. And then to test everyone for 2000 years, God "sealed" the truth that this was symbolic?

Is there any Christians reading this? Baha'is are saying that the literal, physical resurrection is, essentially, a hoax... Or excuse me a "test" from God. No, Baha'is do not believe in the oneness of religion and God. They turn and twist other religions' Scriptures to say what Baha'is want them to say.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, Baha'is do not believe in the oneness of religion and God. They turn and twist other religions' Scriptures to say what Baha'is want them to say.

With that you have made up your mind CG

Did you read the Kitab-i-quan?

I wish you always well.

Regards Tony

 

[arthra]

That's the Kitab-i-Iqan... Can be read online at

The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library

 

[loverofhumanity]

The New Testament also claims Jesus had flesh and bone and was not a ghost. And it also says that God is not the author of confusion. Just within Christianity God has made everything confusing. Add the other religions and there is nothing but confusion.

I’m sorry you’re confused. To me it all makes sense unless you take the entire Bible literally.