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Should Logic Be a Required Course in Public High Schools?

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Again and again on RF, I have encountered posters who want to make a logical argument, or who have been challenged to make a logical argument, or who have even claimed to have made a logical argument, then demonstrate or have already demonstrated that they don't have the first clue as to how to formulate a simple syllogism.

To be fair, my impression is that at least a slightly great portion of current active posters on RF might be more capable of stating a deduction than is the case among the general US adult population. Interestingly, I believe it is true for several posters I've encountered here that their familiarity with logic is due to self-education.

Of course, it seems to me it would not be difficult to adequately educate oneself in logic from freely available online sources. Indeed, it seems to me that the Wikipedia article on syllogisms provides sufficient information to enable to average adult to be able to formulate such a deduction. I mean, for God's sake, the article lists all 24 valid syllogisms, provides the Venn diagrams, and classifies them according to figure and type. What more does one need?

It also cannot be denied that junior high and high school students are exposed to and required to use the fundamental elements of deduction in other classes. I recall my 7th or 8th grade geometry class. I found the subject matter so beautiful because it was just the application of logic to lines, points, angles, triangles, etc.

Surely no one would disagree that education in the US public school system is woefully lacking in several important respects (e.g., compared to other developed countries, and even compared to some developing countries). I find it tempting to assess many of the problems that the US struggles with and other anomalies of US life and polices as to some degree a product of deficiencies in education--one of these glaring and fundamental deficiencies being in the use of basic logic.

So what do you say? If you disagree that logic should be a required course in public high schools, please explain why.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Perhaps high schools should first return to requiring that students critically think. That is just as important.
What is that exactly? What is course material for "thinking critically"? Did it used to be taught in high schools?
 

Flame

Beware
And how would you make it stick in the minds of the students? o_O It would be like the philosophy class my old high school tried to push; everyone I remember ended up just cheating through the whole thing and they couldn't recite a single thing after a month.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It's in how the teacher lectures and the curriculum is presented.
After I asked (of course), I did find a number of course materials for "critical thinking" courses. But they seemto be quite diverse.

One that struck me was a listing of various kinds of "strategies," the first being "affective strategies," with the first of these specified as "thnking independently": Strategy List: 35 Dimensions of Critical Thought I must say that in the context here, it made me wonder whether it would justify eschewing the use of logic on grounds that one is "thinking independently". I.e., does it justify asserting an illogical conclusion under the guise that one is "thinking independently," not like the old geezer Aristotle.

I'm thinking of getting back into teaching.
Ah, good for you. May I ask the subject you taught? (You don't have to say--you can make us guess.)
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
And how would you make it stick in the minds of the students?
How does one make any subject "stick in the mind of the students"? Why do you think that learning logic is any different than learning grammar or math?

It would be like the philosophy class my old high school tried to push; everyone I remember ended up just cheating through the whole thing and they couldn't recite a single thing after a month.
That sounds very anomalous. I would avoid drawing general conclusions from that anecdote.
 

Sanzbir

Well-Known Member
So what do you say? If you disagree that logic should be a required course in public high schools, please explain why.

Yeah, but not for the reasons you assert. I don't think your reasons are good ... at all, really. People who know basic logic aren't necessarily good at arguing logically.

The worst case scenario is a person who knows logic enough to use the names of fallacies as buzzwords where the fallacy in question does not apply (and yeah, there are quite a few of those on the internet).

So teaching basic logic won't solve people being bad at argumentation. And a lot of basic logic doesn't even apply to the subject of debate. Like knowing and/or gates and the like won't do much in that regard.

However, computer programming is growing ever and ever more important, and I think that topic should become mandatory in public schools, at least on an introductory level. And basic logic classes do help quite a bit with that.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yeah, but not for the reasons you assert. I don't think your reasons are good ... at all, really. People who know basic logic aren't necessarily good at arguing logically.

The worst case scenario is a person who knows logic enough to use the names of fallacies as buzzwords where the fallacy in question does not apply (and yeah, there are quite a few of those on the internet).

So teaching basic logic won't solve people being bad at argumentation. And a lot of basic logic doesn't even apply to the subject of debate. Like knowing and/or gates and the like won't do much in that regard.

However, computer programming is growing ever and ever more important, and I think that topic should become mandatory in public schools, at least on an introductory level. And basic logic classes do help quite a bit with that.
I agree with everything you said here. I didn't mean to imply that better argumentation why we need to be more knowledgeable of logic.

In any case, computer programming is another one of those courses (often found in high schools these days) where, as with geometry, students are going to get direct instruction in and will use logic.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Again and again on RF, I have encountered posters who want to make a logical argument, or who have been challenged to make a logical argument, or who have even claimed to have made a logical argument, then demonstrate or have already demonstrated that they don't have the first clue as to how to formulate a simple syllogism.

To be fair, my impression is that at least a slightly great portion of current active posters on RF might be more capable of stating a deduction than is the case among the general US adult population. Interestingly, I believe it is true for several posters I've encountered here that their familiarity with logic is due to self-education.

Of course, it seems to me it would not be difficult to adequately educate oneself in logic from freely available online sources. Indeed, it seems to me that the Wikipedia article on syllogisms provides sufficient information to enable to average adult to be able to formulate such a deduction. I mean, for God's sake, the article lists all 24 valid syllogisms, provides the Venn diagrams, and classifies them according to figure and type. What more does one need?

It also cannot be denied that junior high and high school students are exposed to and required to use the fundamental elements of deduction in other classes. I recall my 7th or 8th grade geometry class. I found the subject matter so beautiful because it was just the application of logic to lines, points, angles, triangles, etc.

Surely no one would disagree that education in the US public school system is woefully lacking in several important respects (e.g., compared to other developed countries, and even compared to some developing countries). I find it tempting to assess many of the problems that the US struggles with and other anomalies of US life and polices as to some degree a product of deficiencies in education--one of these glaring and fundamental deficiencies being in the use of basic logic.

So what do you say? If you disagree that logic should be a required course in public high schools, please explain why.
I know you are trying to insult me with this. And, you couldn't be more wrong/foolish. This OP proves it.

I was a philosophy major in undergrad and took many courses on formal logic during that time. I certainly know how to formulate a simple syllogism. I just find it silly that you try to require formal logic in an informal debate forum such as this. There is absolutely no good that would come from requiring formal logic on this site, and there is a lot of harm that would come from it. Many members would no longer have any interest in contributing to this forum if formal logic were required.

So, why do you think formal logic should be required on RF?
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
They should but never will. There would be too many 9/11 truthers, more than they could suppress with mere denial.
 
Last edited:

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Again and again on RF, I have encountered posters who want to make a logical argument, or who have been challenged to make a logical argument, or who have even claimed to have made a logical argument, then demonstrate or have already demonstrated that they don't have the first clue as to how to formulate a simple syllogism.

To be fair, my impression is that at least a slightly great portion of current active posters on RF might be more capable of stating a deduction than is the case among the general US adult population. Interestingly, I believe it is true for several posters I've encountered here that their familiarity with logic is due to self-education.

Of course, it seems to me it would not be difficult to adequately educate oneself in logic from freely available online sources. Indeed, it seems to me that the Wikipedia article on syllogisms provides sufficient information to enable to average adult to be able to formulate such a deduction. I mean, for God's sake, the article lists all 24 valid syllogisms, provides the Venn diagrams, and classifies them according to figure and type. What more does one need?

It also cannot be denied that junior high and high school students are exposed to and required to use the fundamental elements of deduction in other classes. I recall my 7th or 8th grade geometry class. I found the subject matter so beautiful because it was just the application of logic to lines, points, angles, triangles, etc.

Surely no one would disagree that education in the US public school system is woefully lacking in several important respects (e.g., compared to other developed countries, and even compared to some developing countries). I find it tempting to assess many of the problems that the US struggles with and other anomalies of US life and polices as to some degree a product of deficiencies in education--one of these glaring and fundamental deficiencies being in the use of basic logic.

So what do you say? If you disagree that logic should be a required course in public high schools, please explain why.
Here is an example:
P1: Media outlets that have a history of making claims without sufficient evidence that end up being false should be verified before believed.
P2: JW has a history of making claims without sufficient evidence that end up being false (I provided you with 2 examples of this out of many).
C: JW claims should not be believed unless verified by outside sources.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
What is that exactly? What is course material for "thinking critically"? Did it used to be taught in high schools?

I believe both 'logic' and 'critical thinking' are a part of a basic philosophy course that I did not take until my second year in college. It is possible that it could be taught in high school. Some high schools have debating clubs that each some aspects of this.

'Critical thinking' in philosophy first shows up in studying Socrates, and Socratic skepticism. Part of the foundation of our legal system is 'advocacy law,' which has it's foundation in 'logic.' My foundation philosophy of 'Socratic skepticism' developed through Philosophy courses and debate where we practiced arguing different sides and did not try to argue for what we believed.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I know you are trying to insult me with this. And, you couldn't be more wrong/foolish. This OP proves it.

I was a philosophy major in undergrad and took many courses on formal logic during that time. I certainly know how to formulate a simple syllogism. I just find it silly that you try to require formal logic in an informal debate forum such as this. There is absolutely no good that would come from requiring formal logic on this site, and there is a lot of harm that would come from it. Many members would no longer have any interest in contributing to this forum if formal logic were required.

So, why do you think formal logic should be required on RF?

I do not object to formal logic, but unfortunately it is more often misused to justify an agenda.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Again and again on RF, I have encountered posters who want to make a logical argument, or who have been challenged to make a logical argument, or who have even claimed to have made a logical argument, then demonstrate or have already demonstrated that they don't have the first clue as to how to formulate a simple syllogism.

To be fair, my impression is that at least a slightly great portion of current active posters on RF might be more capable of stating a deduction than is the case among the general US adult population. Interestingly, I believe it is true for several posters I've encountered here that their familiarity with logic is due to self-education.

Of course, it seems to me it would not be difficult to adequately educate oneself in logic from freely available online sources. Indeed, it seems to me that the Wikipedia article on syllogisms provides sufficient information to enable to average adult to be able to formulate such a deduction. I mean, for God's sake, the article lists all 24 valid syllogisms, provides the Venn diagrams, and classifies them according to figure and type. What more does one need?

It also cannot be denied that junior high and high school students are exposed to and required to use the fundamental elements of deduction in other classes. I recall my 7th or 8th grade geometry class. I found the subject matter so beautiful because it was just the application of logic to lines, points, angles, triangles, etc.

Surely no one would disagree that education in the US public school system is woefully lacking in several important respects (e.g., compared to other developed countries, and even compared to some developing countries). I find it tempting to assess many of the problems that the US struggles with and other anomalies of US life and polices as to some degree a product of deficiencies in education--one of these glaring and fundamental deficiencies being in the use of basic logic.

So what do you say? If you disagree that logic should be a required course in public high schools, please explain why.

No. The study of logic is a waste of time. Logic is an attempt to argue about how to argue. It's not about finding truth. Something can be a valid statement but still be untrue.

Just because you can identify an ad hominem or a non-sequitor does not make you right and the other person wrong even though atheists may think that way.

Too often people think that logic equals truth. It doesn't. You can't find truth by using logic because logic depends on you getting your premise right to begin with.
 

Mister Silver

Faith's Nightmare
No. The study of logic is a waste of time. Logic is an attempt to argue about how to argue. It's not about finding truth. Something can be a valid statement but still be untrue.

Just because you can identify an ad hominem or a non-sequitor does not make you right and the other person wrong even though atheists may think that way.

Too often people think that logic equals truth. It doesn't. You can't find truth by using logic because logic depends on you getting your premise right to begin with.

Logic is used to discern that which is true from that which is not true. If you have a problem with logical fallacies, the problem lies with you and your inability to accept that you might be wrong.
 
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