How are these Great Beings explained?

[CG Didymus]

It has been said many times that is why we must determine what was said by the Prophet/Messenger, it is not their Word that decays. It is mans understanding and practice that does.

The pure word remains eternal. Thus when we determine what was actually said by the Prophet/ Messenger, then we find they do not conflict.

The older the religion, the less likely it is that we will be able to determine, what was the actual original teachings.

Regards Tony

'We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred!..."

That says the "genuine" text, so do Christians know what the original and true teachings of Jesus were or not?

 

[CG Didymus]

Studying Buddhism reminds me how difficult it can be to properly grasp the teachings of any of the world religions whether it be Baha'i, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, or Judaism. It takes a while for it to all click into place. The key Baha'i principles ...you could probably count them on two hands.

Lets imagine that the conservative Christians are right about the bible. Its God's Word and perfect. It perfectly reflected what Jesus taught.

Is there any problem with that from your POV?

So before Baha'u'llah and before Muhammad, when the only new message from God was that of Jesus, what were those teachings of Christ?

Since Jesus didn't write the NT, how did the NT writers present the teachings of Jesus and did they also do some interpretation of them? Were they correct in what they said about the teachings Jesus?

When the Christian leaders got together their councils and formed Christian doctrines were they correct in their understanding of the NT?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I looked up Bahai faith years ago when I first came out and had a study-focus faith in christianity. It was I think when I was 17. I didn't agree with the all revealed teachings focused on god but I never talked with a Bahai before about it.

I talk with christians all the time about christ. My views about their religion doesn't mean I need to fuss with them. The JW like challenging discussions because they said it strengthens their faith and also they learn about others. (So they can evangalize) It was an innocent gesture because one, we were in person, and two, they were interested in learning something outside their comfort zone.

If anything, I think I sleep with christ, wake up to christ, breathe christ in the air, and can't go a day or two without someone mentioning christ or god. So, I know a lot and very interested in talking about it.

I do not care for christianity and authority-like faiths and I am able to have good conversations with people who do not mind my challenging them to find the logics of why they believe what they do not from my personal experience.



I never said god of the jews and god of christians are different. If you're talking about trinitarians, yes, they are. Jews do not believe christ is god. If you're talking of how scripture sees it, of course they are the same.

I am speaking from what I know not what I believe. I don't believe in god; but, one does not need to believe in god to understand scripture and the nature of faith especially when one has experienced it.

I agree that you don't need to believe in God to understand scripture though it would certainly help.

In response to you original question, although Baha'is believe the gospels to be authentic, they were written nearly two thousand years ago and so do not address the urgent needs that humanity faces today.

We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.
(Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 212)

Buddha said something similar, I believe, when he discussed a man who was wounded and needed healing.

On one occasion, Malunkyaputta asked the Buddha a number of questions: whether or not the world is eternal; whether the world is finite or infinite; whether or not the soul and the body are identical; and about the existence of the saint after death. He received no direct reply. Instead the Buddha related a parable: "It is as if a man is hit by a poison arrow. His friends hasten to the doctor. The latter is about to draw the arrow out of the wound. The wounded man however cries: `Stop, I will not have the arrow drawn out until I know who shot it. Whether a warrior or a Brahmin, or belonging to the agricultural or menial castes . . . his name and to which family he belonged . . . of what species and description the arrow is.'" In seeking to attain absolute knowledge of all of the circumstances of the shooting, the man neglected the practical matter of removing the arrow and would certainly die. Similarly, the Buddha asserts that were he to try to elucidate the answer to the questions that Malunkyaputta had put to him, "that person would die before the Tathagata had ever elucidated this to him"
(MN [1:426] 2:2:63, v. 43; tr. Horner 2:99; Warren 120).

 

[CG Didymus]

Christians can cherry pick their morals, supporting slavery, or wealth, or killing, or loving, or etc..... I'm amazed at how many US Fundie Christians want the death penalty for gays, or to 'glass' Mecca. Oh yes! This is because a number of names were Ordained by God to deliver His Divine Messages.

But let's not look there, let's look at what is happening to Bahai. Untold numbers of Bahais are going to be Ordained together to deliver the Divine Words of God and the Bahai 'canon' can change to suit ............ and it is happening/has happened already.

As soon as folks tell me that I can't understand the inner meanings of the Prophet, and that what he really mreant was the exact blooming opposite of what he wrote because of some amazing spiritual reasoning that only Bahais would be able to understand, because I like wine or whatever, it begins to look as if it already started to go wrong many decades ago.

Once I read that looking upon a woman with lust was the same as committing adultery with her, I knew that most men were going to have a problem living by the standard Jesus was expecting. Baha'i moral standards are just as high. I wonder if Christians and Baha'is able to live up to those standards?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Strong but empty, since everything Christians believe to be true about their NT is wrong according to the Baha'i Faith.

No it isn't.

The NT writers say they saw Jesus perform miracles, raise from the dead, warn them about The Adversary, the Devil.

Many Christians don't believe in a literal devil either.

Baha'is don't deny the miracles, but see a deeper meaning.

The resurrection including the ascension if taken literally makes no sense, and can be better explained by appreciating a spiritual context, admittedly not to the satisfaction of the conservative Christians.

But Baha'is say none of that is true.

They don't.

The main thing for Christians is that Jesus died for their sins. What do Baha'is tell Christians about this belief?

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 449-452

 

[CG Didymus]

This is a good question, the answer is yes it will have consequences, this is but one two quotes on this subject;

"In Akká, January 1908, this question was asked of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá: “Are great calamities like this flood, the San Francisco earthquake, etc., caused by the wickedness of the people?” To this He responded: “Events like these happen because of the connection between the parts of the universe, for every small part has connection with every great part, and what affects one affects the other or all others. On account of this connection, the actions of man have effect. Whenever a promise is broken, it causes a commotion. For instance, suppose two nations have a disagreement. It is a difference in ideas only, and not a physical thing, not anything we can touch or see; yet this disagreement has a physical effect. It causes war, and thousands of men are cut in pieces. So, when man breaks his promise to God, in other words when he “violates the Covenant,” the effect is physical, and calamities appear.” (Daily Lessons Received at Akká’ by Helen Goodall & Ella Cooper. Bahá’í Publishing Trust 1979, p. 21-22)

"You seem to complain about the calamities, that have befallen humanity. In the spiritual development of man a stage of purgation is indispensable, for it is while passing through it that the over-rated material needs are made to appear in their proper light. Unless society learns to attribute more importance to spiritual matters, it would never be fit to enter the golden era foretold by Bahá’u’lláh. The present calamities are parts of this process of purgation, through them alone will man learn his lesson. They are to teach the nations, that they have to view things internationally, they are to make the individual attribute more importance to his moral, than his material welfare. In such a process of purgation, when all humanity is in the throes of dire suffering, the Bahá’ís should not hope to remain unaffected. Should we consider the beam that is in our own eye, we would immediately fine that these sufferings are also meant for ourselves, who claimed to have attained. Such world crisis is necessary to awaken us to the importance of our duty and the carrying on of our task. Suffering will increase our energy in setting before humanity the road to salvation, it will move us from our repose for we are far from doing our best in teaching the Cause and conveying the Message with which we have been entrusted." (Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 133)

To me this is clear, while we pull the plank from our own eye, we must still deliver the Message with Urgency, so people can also get to consider if they may need to look at self and what they are doing for the world as a whole.

Regards Tony

The opposite question is... If everyone did exactly what the religion says to do, would there still be natural disasters?

 

[Dawnofhope]

So before Baha'u'llah and before Muhammad, when the only new message from God was that of Jesus, what were those teachings of Christ?

Those that were taught in the gospels and elucidated by the apostles.

Since Jesus didn't write the NT, how did the NT writers present the teachings of Jesus and did they also do some interpretation of them? Were they correct in what they said about the teachings Jesus?

It was all taught by preaching and the telling of stories. The Gospels were not written for at least 20 years after Christ was crucified. The apostles were inspired by the Unerring spirit of God.

Who wrote the Gospels

When the Christian leaders got together their councils and formed Christian doctrines were they correct in their understanding of the NT?

In many things yes, in others such as the divinity of Christ and the triune nature of God, no.

Deja vu?

 

[CG Didymus]

No it isn't.



Many Christians don't believe in a literal devil either.

Baha'is don't deny the miracles, but see a deeper meaning.

The resurrection including the ascension if taken literally makes no sense, and can be better explained by appreciating a spiritual context, admittedly not to the satisfaction of the conservative Christians.



They don't.



Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 449-452

I'm stopping here for the night. I'll comment on this post tomorrow. I'm going to go play some guitar now. Oh, and don't forget about the chapters in Revelation that describe what will happen during the second Woe. Thanks.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Does the UHJ publish its vote divisions?

Minutes of local assembly meetings are confidential as they may contain personal information about individuals and other institutions. The minutes of the Universal House of Justice are likely to be kept confidential for similar reasons.

You may be interested in the constitution of the Universal House of Justice. I know you have had concerns in the past about transparency and the potential for abuse of power.

The Constitution of the Universal House of Justice - 21 April 1963

This features on the Universal House of Justice's website.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Adrian, you posted this sutta before. I can't remember my response. There are other ones like it but I have to dig them up again.

I agree that you don't need to believe in God to understand scripture though it would certainly help.

Well, I would say the same but unlike Christianity, you can still practice the Dhamma in a general way (have compassion, love, etc). The difference is since it's not specific Dharmic teachings, you'll just go through many rebirths.

In response to you original question, although Baha'is believe the gospels to be authentic, they were written nearly two thousand years ago and so do not address the urgent needs that humanity faces today.

They do. When Malunkyaputta asks The Buddha these questions (which he answers in other suttas in this thread but never addressed ) The Buddha, in all his dialogues, reverts the question back to the person he is talking to. The purpose is to get people to think for themselves rather than depending on The Buddha (Brahma, whoever) to "give" them the answers.

I do not know if you can see this below or not.

"....they were written nearly two thousand years ago and so do not address the urgent needs that humanity faces today."

The problem with this statement (not the person who says it, Bahaullah included) is it assumes that humanity faces such a dreadful spiritual problem that no other teacher but Bahaullah can solve.

All religious teachings are relevant for today. As soon as you say it is not, that is a alibi for reinterpreting the teachings of what the prophets wrote for the interpretation written by Bahaullah.

Also, if all prophets were nysc, why quote Bahaullah's text if they are the same as the original text quoted from the Quran, Bible, and supposedly the Gita and Suttas?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.

This talks about people not knowing they have delusions and in this case delusion about knowing god.

On one occasion, Malunkyaputta asked the Buddha a number of questions: whether or not the world is eternal; whether the world is finite or infinite; whether or not the soul and the body are identical; and about the existence of the saint after death. He received no direct reply. Instead the Buddha related a parable:

"It is as if a man is hit by a poison arrow. His friends hasten to the doctor. The latter is about to draw the arrow out of the wound. The wounded man however cries: `Stop, I will not have the arrow drawn out until I know who shot it. Whether a warrior or a Brahmin, or belonging to the agricultural or menial castes . . . his name and to which family he belonged . . . of what species and description the arrow is.'" In seeking to attain absolute knowledge of all of the circumstances of the shooting, the man neglected the practical matter of removing the arrow and would certainly die. Similarly, the Buddha asserts that were he to try to elucidate the answer to the questions that Malunkyaputta had put to him, "that person would die before the Tathagata had ever elucidated this to him"

This is saying that we ask questions about "what is god; what is eternal; what is this; what is that" without noticing the delusion is not external (no answered questions) but internal-something the person injured did not (not could not as in your bahai quote) see for himself because he was more concerned with asking questions rather than addressing the problem.

The former, Bahaullah is always talking about god. So, people are delusioned for this or that to where their focus is on everything else but god.

The latter, The Buddha gives an analogy of people are asking questions (not delusioned in this sutta), asking about god-eternal not eterna, brahma, no brahma, etc, instead of addressing the actual problem which lies in the person's mind not in being absent of god because of delusions.

Totally different themes.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Adrian, you posted this sutta before. I can't remember my response. There are other ones like it but I have to dig them up again.


Well, I would say the same but unlike Christianity, you can still practice the Dhamma in a general way (have compassion, love, etc). The difference is since it's not specific Dharmic teachings, you'll just go through many rebirths.



They do. When Malunkyaputta asks The Buddha these questions (which he answers in other suttas in this thread but never addressed ) The Buddha, in all his dialogues, reverts the question back to the person he is talking to. The purpose is to get people to think for themselves rather than depending on The Buddha (Brahma, whoever) to "give" them the answers.

I do not know if you can see this below or not.

"....they were written nearly two thousand years ago and so do not address the urgent needs that humanity faces today."

The problem with this statement (not the person who says it, Bahaullah included) is it assumes that humanity faces such a dreadful spiritual problem that no other teacher but Bahaullah can solve.

All religious teachings are relevant for today. As soon as you say it is not, that is a alibi for reinterpreting the teachings of what the prophets wrote for the interpretation written by Bahaullah.

Also, if all prophets were nysc, why quote Bahaullah's text if they are the same as the original text quoted from the Quran, Bible, and supposedly the Gita and Suttas?

I wonder if you are confusing the eternal teachings in every religion that are relevant to every age, compared to the transient teachings that are particular to the age in which the message was revealed.

Jesus taught at a time when the world was ruled by empires, not democracy, men dominated women due to his more aggressive and forceful qualities, slavery was the norm, weapons of mass destruction did not exist, and we did not have a global perspective.

Some of the laws in the OT revealed by Moses, few would see as being relevant today, even amongst the Jews, yet they were revealed by Moses. Stoning someone to death because they work on the Sabbath is an example.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Man's idea of it.

In what I believe, man's idea changes constantly every second; so, it is not a bad thing. I think the only two people that probably kept the words pure are Jews and Muslims.

You,@adrian009, and @loverofhumanity disagree with each other.

What I read in Bahaullah's teachings is that because these different revealed teachings are the cause of war based on differences, the best solution is to unify (hence unity) the teachings so that all revealed teachers lead to one source. When all teachers lead to god (which is changing what these original teachings taught) then somehow thousands of years or so people will start to change their views sand behavior to reflect the revealed teachers actual teachings.

This is from Bahaullah. I have quoted it already. I can requote it if you like.

I'm just restating the Bahai belief. Since all of you disagree with it (which is your right; no wars), how would the rest of know the actual teachings of Bahaullah?

Sounds like the same thing you're accusing man of. Everyone sees their faith in different ways. In order to understand that, instead of defending your faith talk about it instead.

Hi Carlita,

I’m not sure how Adrian and I have disagreed.

As far as I’m aware, the teachings of all the Manifestations complement each other. The spiritual laws such as love one another and turn the other cheek are eternal laws. Social laws change with the times,

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Cliff Notes.
@adrian009

We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned.

They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. (Meaning that their delusions are keeping them from knowing the divine and infallible physician)

Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.

It is not similar: The Buddha dies. He is not divine and he is not infallible.

On one occasion, Malunkyaputta asked the Buddha a number of questions: whether or not the world is eternal; whether the world is finite or infinite; whether or not the soul and the body are identical; and about the existence of the saint after death. He received no direct reply.

He gave no direct reply because asking these questions eternal/non eternal, finite/infinite, are all "divine related" questions such as the Bahaullah quote above when he talks about not knowing the divine physician. The Buddha rebuts that by this:

Instead the Buddha related a parable: "It is as if a man is hit by a poison arrow. His friends hasten to the doctor. The latter is about to draw the arrow out of the wound. The wounded man however cries: `Stop, I will not have the arrow drawn out until I know who shot it. Whether a warrior or a Brahmin, or belonging to the agricultural or menial castes . . . his name and to which family he belonged . . . of what species and description the arrow is.'"

In seeking to attain absolute knowledge of all of the circumstances of the shooting, the man neglected the practical matter of removing the arrow and would certainly die.

People searching for god, believing in god, finding the divine physician, and all of that are asking mystical questions when the answers is pretty straight forward. The answer is the arrow-the delusions/suffering not god.

Similarly, the Buddha asserts that were he to try to elucidate the answer to the questions that Malunkyaputta had put to him, "that person would die before the Tathagata had ever elucidated this to him"

There is no divine physician in this sutta. So they are not alike.

Diversity is lovely when we can see differences just as much as we can our similarities.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Diversity is lovely when we can see differences just as much as we can our similarities.

It is beautiful indeed.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I wonder if you are confusing the eternal teachings in every religion that are relevant to every age, compared to the transient teachings that are particular to the age in which the message was revealed.

No. I don't see teachings as not relevant by age no matter if they are eternal or transient.

Jesus taught at a time when the world was ruled by empires, not democracy, men dominated women due to his more aggressive and forceful qualities, slavery was the norm, weapons of mass destruction did not exist, and we did not have a global perspective.

Jesus taught about his father, how to worship, the apostles taught about his life, death, and resurrection, and how the Church is supposed to continue. The culture (how to worship) and the teachings (what to worship) and the spirituality (why we worship) are all interrelated and to Christians they are relevant for today.

What you're talking about sounds like politics not what Christians call scripture.

Some of the laws in the OT revealed by Moses, few would see as being relevant today, even amongst the Jews, yet they were revealed by Moses. Stoning someone to death because they work on the Sabbath is an example.

Stoning someone then was not a spiritual practice and it isn't now. Come on now, we had a huge genocide in our time and slavery etc. Stoning isn't that bad compared to what's happening today.

That's why the spiritual teachings-how to worship, why, and what-such as culture and scripture are relevant today as they were yesterday.

You're mistaking politics and government practices with spiritual ones like actually cutting a lamb and offering up to god and jesus actually living, dying, and being resurrected from the cross.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hi Carlita,

I’m not sure how Adrian and I have disagreed.

As far as I’m aware, the teachings of all the Manifestations complement each other. The spiritual laws such as love one another and turn the other cheek are eternal laws. Social laws change with the times,

Disagreeing doesn't mean you guys don't share the same belief. One christian believes X and the other believes Y. Yet, they are unified as The Body of Christ. I don't think it's worth trying to find where you guys disagree with. I did post a list of what each bahai said that was different and contradicting. No one replied so it's lost. I think it was a short post too.

 

[Dawnofhope]

What you're talking about sounds like politics not what Christians call scripture.

How about this teaching from the NT?

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Transient or Eternal?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Christianity and their Book of Revelation says all these evil things will happen and then... Jesus comes back and does away with the evil doers and the evil spirit being. So they are right on track. What are Baha'is doing to prevent wars? Or, are they waiting for it all to implode?

That’s a very fair question. I’ll try and answer it but I’m no enstein as you can see. Christians have always had this Disneyland almost fairytale interpretation of Christ’s return. That He will magically appear in the sky and the Kingdom of God will descend to the earth and everything will auto correct. Something like that.

With the Baha’is we see it more pragmatically. That Christ returned as a Man and brought the blueprint for the Kingdom of God which Christians are to build not a ready made kingdom.

So with instructions and laws for a new spiritual world civilisation given by Baha’u’llah, Christ returned in the glory of the Father, we are building it step by step. Now if Christians would have recognized Christ when He returned, this Kingdom of God, a world spiritual civilisation might be already established. But because they rejected Him, humanity has to wait maybe centuries longer until it becomes fully established because we are only a tiny handful.

It is not a concrete Kingdom or a political one but a transformation of the nature of man and society from one of corruption and immorality to one of Justice and virtues. We live in an age where consumerism, greed and capitalism dominate so this transformation is not going to happen overnight.

If all humanity worked together to establish the kingdom of God then it would happen much faster but we have each chosen our own way so this kingdom has very few workers to build it so humanity suffers longer. This means to our understanding that the world will remain filled with corruption and injustice longer and immorality and vices will be more difficult to change.

So really it’s not just what the Baha’is are doing but a better humanity is everyone’s responsibility.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That's why the spiritual teachings-how to worship, why, and what-such as culture and scripture are relevant today as they were yesterday.

How about animal sacrifices? Perhaps God would like to see this expression of devotion reinstated?