How are these Great Beings explained?

[CG Didymus]

Just out of interest I wonder why you place the blame on God’s Word instead of man having become so unspiritual that he cannot understand spiritual terms anymore only material things like binge drinking and partying?

Had man maintained his spiritual nature these things might be very clear to him as they are to the Baha’is.

The readiness to jump the gun and blame God for man’s spiritual waywardness indicates bias to me. Man who has been the cause of world wars and genocides and a holocaust can he in such a condition be expected to have any understanding of God’s Words at all?

It is man who has chosen to turn away from God to the extent he can’t even understand spiritual terms anymore but he knows where the nearest pub and nightclub or casino is doesn’t he?

Christians blame man's problems on Satan and the fall of man. What do Baha'is say? God made them too stupid to understand and live by God's Word? If God did, then the blame is on the Creator for making a faulty product.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I haven't read ahead yet, so I don't know how they will respond to you. But, Baha'is have said that the Bab is The Lamb. I argue that The Lamb is the central figure in Revelation and so many things point to The Lamb being Jesus. The Bab is barely known or talked about, so I really can't believe that all of the Book of Revelation is about the Bab.

It isn't. A lot of protestants and protestant minded people forget that The Church has a lot to do with the interpretations and translations we have now about christ and the apostles. They are the ones that put the book together to begin with. If The Bab was the Lamb, I'm sure the Jews would know something. I didn't get that impression in any christian church. All the prophets and saints at Mass had explicit historical and/or scriptural direct references and connections to the god of abraham. Krishna, The Buddha, and The Bab does not have those connections. The Bible does not speak of muhammad but muhammad speaks of the bible.

I think they are seeing it backwards. We have to use christian teachings to prove the validity of Bahaullah's words not the other way around.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You know I read in 2 Peter where that quote came from. Peter goes on to talk about false prophets and teachers, so I think it is about not accepting just anybody's interpretation, but someone like one of the apostles or something. Of course the Baha'is want it to mean that all prophecy needs to be interpreted by Baha'u'llah not ordinary people.

Well, I'm an ex-Catholic babe and I never saw Peter nor Bahaullah in the Eucharist and Mass is considered ongoing regardless of time period. I never heard of Bahaullah being part of the body of christ. Muhammad wouldn't say he was part of the body (he wouldn't identify christ as god, for example) and he wouldn't say he needs christ to get to god. The Hindu and Buddhist misconceptions are a mess. Adrian has patience to sit with me through it. I don't know about the others.

 

[Vinayaka]

Christians blame man's problems on Satan and the fall of man. What do Baha'is say? God made them too stupid to understand and live by God's Word? If God did, then the blame is on the Creator for making a faulty product.

Certainly I've been told I'm stupid several times here, in the form of being blind, walking away from God, etc. So much so I'm starting to believe it. Good thing I have company in all other non-Bahai or I'd be depressed from it.

 

[CG Didymus]

Had the billions of the worlds Religionists really been following their religion sincerely how is it possible to have had two world wars, a holocaust and the decay in morals that we’ve seen over the decades?

So if Baha'is don't follow the teachings, will there be more bad things coming?

 

[CG Didymus]

The fact that current religion has been impotent to stop war says it all just how much true spirituality there is on earth.

Christianity and their Book of Revelation says all these evil things will happen and then... Jesus comes back and does away with the evil doers and the evil spirit being. So they are right on track. What are Baha'is doing to prevent wars? Or, are they waiting for it all to implode?

 

[Vinayaka]

So if Baha'is don't follow the teachings, will there be more bad things coming?

If you look at any independent research by a non-affiliated research group like Pew, the Baha'i' turn out just average, like the rest of us, in divorce rate, giving to charity, and all those things.

 

[CG Didymus]

We don't.



Then why would they write what they believed to be false?



You need to decide whether or not human beings can have mystical experiences and be inspired by God. Why would they claim to have had supernatural experiences when they hadn't?



I agree.



You could call Christianity an evolution of Judaism. Unless you are clear what you mean by the term evolution then we can't properly assess it. If by evolution you mean a progression or development, then we could easily say that about the developmental of Christianity from Judaism, but its not saying a lot.

You may feel as if you have a clear enough understanding of both Buddhism and Hinduism to make that statement. Then you need to be more specific and be ready to demonstrate that you really understand it. Someone who is an actual Buddhist or Hindu will quickly discern whether you are authentic or not.



It is clear that Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam being world religions have adapted to range of cultures by integrating elements of their traditions and symbols into the religion. If there was not the capacity for such adaptation, then these religions would not have become so widely accepted by large portions of the populations of the communities they were introduced to. Faith adherents need to communicate to indigineous populations using their traditions, language, and culture.

I hear violence, coercion, and manipulation as a cause of conversions. Of course thats been part of history too, but it doesn't explain why people in countries such as ours chose to continue their faith of their own volition.



That's not true.



That's exactly what happens and many Baha'is understand this. It only becomes a problem when we insist that the cultural adaptations were part of the original religion.

I swear a Baha'i here has said that the original teachings have been lost. So to make sure I understand what Baha'is believe... the Jewish Bible and the Christian NT is accurate and contains the original teachings of their religions?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I swear a Baha'i here has said that the original teachings have been lost. So to make sure I understand what Baha'is believe... the Jewish Bible and the Christian NT is accurate and contains the original teachings of their religions?

That sounds like something the Muslims commonly say and believe about the Gospels.

Check out Baha'u'llah's in response to this Muslim belief:

'We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King? Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!'

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 81-93

Strong language really. It seems clear to me. How about to you?

 

[Sen McGlinn]

Wasn't Shoghi Effendi supposed to leave a will appointing the next guardian and he didn't?

He was supposed to nominate a successor in his lifetime, and present his choice to a body of nine "Hands", elected by the Hands around the world, and these nine Hands were to vote in secret ballot to accept or reject the nominee.

Because of the specified procedure, the selection of the next Guardian could not be announced in the Will of the Guardian - it had to be made in his lifetime. Shoghi Effendi did not do this. He died unexpectedly in an influenza epidemic, while travelling. At the time he had just appointed many more Hands, and an election of the nine might have been feasible, but it was not even planned as far as I know. He probably expected to live for some years yet, and he had a problem: no good candidates for the job.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Which is, of course, an Abrahamic POV.

Or our One Gods Guidance.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's insulting.

We are to easily insulted.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thanks for the links - I will look up the Persian history thing. On the statistics I don't think you should read too much into the numbers. England and Wales has over 14 million people who profess no religion. They are governed by an elected national assembly based in Westminster, London and about 400 or so elected local assemblies - 27 county councils, 201 district councils, and 125 unitary councils. Every adult member of this non-religious group irrespective of gender, sexuality, disability, ethnicity or cultural heritage gets to vote for their preferred representatives at national and local level and this arrangement has ensured that none of them are forced to adopt any religious ideas they find unacceptable to their reason or their conscience.

I though you might be interested in this essay exploring the problems with Western Liberal Democracy.

Western Liberal Democracy as New World Order? by Dr. Michael Karlberg

We could contrast the democracy/administration of the Western world with Baha'i democracy/administration.

The Bahá’í Administrative Order | What Bahá’ís Believe

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That sounds like something the Muslims commonly say and believe about the Gospels.

Check out Baha'u'llah's in response to this Muslim belief:

'We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King? Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!'

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 81-93

Strong language really. It seems clear to me. How about to you?

I'm actually curious of your view on this. Every other Bahai here on this thread has said in some direct way the teachings of other revealed faiths were lost, misinterpreted by their own people, misunderstood by man, decaying in need of revision, "for the reason Baha'u'llah came in this time period...", more than one manifestation was need depending on the time period (which means that The Buddha's words are not relevant for today's "spiritual salvation" because he only spoke to those in his time period. Now Bahaullah can relay the message in a better way from god)

Gosh. Another thousand years we will have a new manifestation. If the teachings were not "decaying" we would not need a new manifestation.

The need to find unity in all revealed faiths is saying that each faith (or it has been said rather) cannot stand on its own to build world peace because one Bahai said "has any religion found world peace yet?" as if not finding it right now is valid for revision of their teachings.

What was another, um, ... gosh. There were a lot. Both direct and indirect.

Something we can't change but when I challenge the logic behind it, the conversation goes dead all together. Maybe I need to brush up on my religious literature and buy a t.v. to watch the news.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

'm actually curious of your view on this. Every other Bahai here on this thread has said in some direct way the teachings of other revealed faiths were lost, misinterpreted by their own people, misunderstood by man, decaying in need of revision, "for the reason Baha'u'llah came in this time period..."

It has been said many times that is why we must determine what was said by the Prophet/Messenger, it is not their Word that decays. It is mans understanding and practice that does.

The pure word remains eternal. Thus when we determine what was actually said by the Prophet/ Messenger, then we find they do not conflict.

The older the religion, the less likely it is that we will be able to determine, what was the actual original teachings.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It is mans understanding and practice that does.

Please re-read my post. I've mentioned this. It's just what you guys believe and I'm asking Adrian's view on it. You kinda have to part yourself from defending your faith to have a constructive dialogue instead.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It has been said many times that is why we must determine what was said by the Prophet/Messenger, it is not their Word that decays. It is mans understanding and practice that does.

The pure word remains eternal. Thus when we determine what was actually said by the Prophet/ Messenger, then we find they do not conflict.

The older the religion, the less likely it is that we will be able to determine, what was the actual original teachings.

Regards Tony

I don't know what it is. It seems like you and Adrian are on two opposite sides of the poles here. Here is what @loveofhumanity said

Again those are your words. Every scripture of every Faith envisages a ‘time of its own end’. Why is Christ coming again if Christianity is going to remain in its pristine purity or Buddha returning and don’t forget even Buddha said His Dhamma would decay over 2,500 yrs and disappear entirely. Even the Quran says every age has its own Book and Teachings so if you refer to each Holy Book your contention that there is no respect for each religion can be found in their own verses that they will eventually come to an end one day and a new religion will appear.
​

The only thing that can decay in the suttas are the physical suttas. Buddhists aren't sacred-book people. We can practice without written text. Buddhist teachings is about man not god. It is completely opposite of Bahai and other god-religions because the focus tells us "man" has and does have the capability to understand life without the need of god (in his case Brahma).

You have to read it objectively or be interested in how a Buddhist see it.

The only way you can stop be defensive about your views is to learn how others see theirs. Then you may realize it is not a threat just restating facts.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm actually curious of your view on this. Every other Bahai here on this thread has said in some direct way the teachings of other revealed faiths were lost, misinterpreted by their own people, misunderstood by man, decaying in need of revision, "for the reason Baha'u'llah came in this time period...", more than one manifestation was need depending on the time period (which means that The Buddha's words are not relevant for today's "spiritual salvation" because he only spoke to those in his time period. Now Bahaullah can relay the message in a better way from god)

Gosh. Another thousand years we will have a new manifestation. If the teachings were not "decaying" we would not need a new manifestation.

The need to find unity in all revealed faiths is saying that each faith (or it has been said rather) cannot stand on its own to build world peace because one Bahai said "has any religion found world peace yet?" as if not finding it right now is valid for revision of their teachings.

What was another, um, ... gosh. There were a lot. Both direct and indirect.

Something we can't change but when I challenge the logic behind it, the conversation goes dead all together. Maybe I need to brush up on my religious literature and buy a t.v. to watch the news.

Studying Buddhism reminds me how difficult it can be to properly grasp the teachings of any of the world religions whether it be Baha'i, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, or Judaism. It takes a while for it to all click into place. The key Baha'i principles ...you could probably count them on two hands.

Lets imagine that the conservative Christians are right about the bible. Its God's Word and perfect. It perfectly reflected what Jesus taught.

Is there any problem with that from your POV?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Studying Buddhism reminds me how difficult it can be to properly grasp the teachings of any of the world religions whether it be Baha'i, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, or Judaism. It takes a while for it to all click into place. The key Baha'i principles ...you could probably count them on two hands.

Lets imagine that the conservative Christians are right about the bible. Its God's Word and perfect. It perfectly reflected what Jesus taught.

Is there any problem with that from your POV?

Since Christianity has a lot of hierarchy and authority-motivated, in my opinion, yes, it is a problem. Online, I'm just learning and talking about my opinion. Offline, I have a stronger view with christians because I live in a christian owned home, christian neighbors (direct), co-workers, etc. They speak of their faith as if you're talking about how the weather is as if we both have the same level of comparison. Our community is wrapped around christian politics, business, charity, even just riding the bus the bus driver (a friend too) and I talked about religion and she was curious why I didn't believe in god as if I didn't believe the sun shown in the east in the morning and west in the evening.

That mindset of "I am right and you are wrong" takes a political point of view here. I see a lot of conversation similarities between Christian and Bahai. I couldn't get too far with christians but I didn't know this was an abrahamic thing. I know Muslims don't talk about their religion much and Jews barely at all. So, learning about Bahai is pretty new.

Yes, I would say it is wrong only because going back to my main point of cultural appropriation. Outside of that, it doesn't harm anyone if you're not indoctrinated people and telling people who is right and who is wrong. I get that a lot but only from Christians, Nichiren Shoshu, and SGI Buddhist. No one else.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The only thing that can decay in the suttas are the physical suttas.

Lets look at an example. One of Christ teachings is to turn the other cheek. For a while this was practiced and many gave thier lives so mankind could live, then after a while it changed and now?

The teaching still remains pure in its original Word, one can read it as it was read 2000 years ago. So what changed, the Teaching or mans idea of it?

Regards Tony