How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

I haven't asked too many in depth conversations with Buddhists or Hindus about their religion. My mother-in-law is Buddhist and my wife has Buddhist leanings due to her upbringing and Japanese side. Our sons both have Japanese names. We have visited many temples when in Japan. My experience is the Japanese (Zen-Buddhist/Shinto) have many excellent qualities. They are community orientated, value family, work, their emperor (who is ancestrally descended from god), courtesy, and cleanliness.

The Hindus I have come across are often nurses and doctors who have many excellent personal attributes. We hardly ever talk religion.

The last two days I have had a medical student assigned to me. She is a Muslim from Brunei, sponsored by her government to learn medicine in New Zealand. Once again, another wonderful soul, who I can see will be a tremendous doctor once she graduates.

So many wonderful people from all around the world with different faiths. It just affirms for me that we are all just one people sharing the same earth with one common faith.

I would say it's one common result of each person's individual and different religions. For example, if I met you in person, I would not consider you a Buddhist based on the our religions. That would mean I can go to Bahaullah to end rebirth and you don't need god to have peace with your peers. The unity isn't in our beliefs. We have totally different belief systems.

It's how we communicate with people because of our individual beliefs. Most religions understand that. A Christian knows he can get along with Bahai without saying the Bahai is a christian. In earlier conversations in this thread, Bahai doesn't see it that way. One Bahai considered himself a practitioner of two religions because they both share the same love.

It's a mix up between the results of unity and the source of unity. Kind of like saying there is only one cook because we all like the different dishes from different countries brought to our table. (If you're following the analogy I had with Tony)

 

[Vinayaka]

I agree but I prefer talking about spiritual things than to go out binge drinking and besides I learn something instead of killing my brain cells.

There are other alternatives besides binge drinking, you know. I spent the last 3 hours of my life touching up the temple's wooden fence. Fresh air, exercise, contemplative solitude. I never even think of those adharmic things. But if that's what you're interested in ... lol.

Other alternatives ... adultery, playing with guns, arson of old buildings, hurling insults at random people .... yup, lots of alternatives to binge drinking.

 

[Vinayaka]

Why did he have to give up his religion? Christ taught love. Did his religious elders teach him to hate homosexual people?

Yes. But that was only part of it. Another factor was just the 'I'm right and you're wrong. For example, if you describe a miracle attributed to Jesus, and then describe a miracle attributed to Muhammed, the Christian will say it's absolutely true about Jesus, but absolutely false about Muhammed, wheras the Muslim will say it';s absolutely true about Muhammad but absolutely false about Jesus. That sort of 'sticking to dogma got to him. He was just too smart for that. So are you.

The idea that you can be homosexual but be forbidden to act on it is preposterous. He knew that. He hopes his son can find a mate and have a healthy relationship on all levels.

 

[Vinayaka]

That’s so nice. What is an acceptable presentation of Ganesh by Hindus I wonder? I really love some of the designs I’ve seen of Ganesh.

Ganesha doesn't really have any symbols just for Him. Usually it is a picture. There are hundreds of those.

 

[leibowde84]

How do we explain these Great Beings: Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab & Bahaullah? They are somewhat unique and unparalleled in human history and were clearly not ordinary people.

There are famous people in history, famous artists, musicians and scientists but none can compare to the influence of the Educator, Teacher, Messiah or Prophet.

But Who were they? And why were they and still are so influential throughout history? Why did they inspire civilizations? Why have their scriptures become patterns of life followed daily by billions of people for thousands of years?

What gift did they possess to be able to be persecuted, oppressed, tortured, exiled and crucified by the most despotic and powerful leaders of their age with but a handful of followers and yet eventually triumph over adversity and establish Their Cause all over the world?

Statues, Churches, Temples, Pagodas, Mosques and Synagogues are built all over the world to pay tribute to these Great Souls.

Are they from another world? Did they pre exist? Without a special power how could they have accomplished what they did and who is their equal in influence?

And aren't we in dire need of another Great Spiritual Teacher to revive us spiritually?

Muhammad did it with force.
Jesus didn't do it ... Paul and Constantine did it in his name, and we really don't know much about Jesus. We merely have claims made by unknown authors that may or may not be true.
We still have no verifiable evidence that Moses ever existed, so, to the best of our knowledge, he could have been a fictional character.
Buddha and Krishna seem to fit your mold though. They were extraordinary people in the sense you describe.

But, there were others. Churchill is one of my favorites. If it wasn't for him, Hitler would have had his way and the free world would not exist ... neither would Western civilization as we know it.

JFK was one too. He actually tried to unite the country.

MLK was certainly one.

The list goes on.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There is work to be done, and if the Baha'i' considered that more important, it would happen.

Good on you for painting that fence.

Really excellent post until this part. Which common faith would that be? Are you excluding the atheists again?

Atheists exclude themselves from God. That is there choice.

It is to the virtues we then look as to what is common Faith, with no Tag of Faith.

An Atheist living virtues would be living a Godly Life. A person of Faith with few virtues, would not be living a Godly Life.

We don't need an offer of a cure but an offer of discussing among ourselves what cure is best for us.

That would be unskilled paitents trying to be a doctor. Sorry, does not work and death is a result.

Best to turn to the Most Skilled.

Regards to all, Tony

 

[oldbadger]

If he got a bunch of numbers right, it might just work.

I know.......
If you took the numbers in my date of birth, added them to yours and then handed the resulting figure to some folks, by spinning them around, calling seconds years (whatever) they would come up with exactly the correct date required.

Ah Love! could thou and I with Fate conspire,
To grasp this sorry Scheme of Things entitre,
Would not we shatter it to bits - and then
Re-mould it it nearer to our Heart's Desire!
Omar Khayyam

 

[oldbadger]

But what about men? They can’t have babies. Isn’t that discrimination and favouritism of women? When’s that going to change?

Nah nah!
But what about men? They cannot fly like a sparrow, nor swim like a porpoise, isn't that discrimination and favouritism of sparrows and porpoise? When's that going to change?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Your real self (the different-view side) comes out at last. Nothing wrong with it. Not everyone needs to agree to be respectful. Unity doesn't quite work with the below type thinking, though.

Atheists exclude themselves from God. That is there choice.

We don't exclude ourselves from god. Many of us do not believe god exists. I've asked before, how do you decide to exclude yourself from something that does not exist???

The question doesn't have to be religious. Just the logic.

An Atheist living virtues would be living a Godly Life. A person of Faith with few virtues, would not be living a Godly Life.

That is not accepting people's differences. Unity among differences, I believe it was called. Can't think of it now not only the Bahai site.

It's very good some people aren't living a godly life. I was just thinking about this actually while watching As Good as it Gets (good movie, by the way). I thought it would be terrible if everyone had to believe in god and if not they make themselves lose out (exclude themselves) from the benefits. That is coercion. I would definitely feel trapped seeing people like the holocaust force to believe and do things against their will. Or the Church having various ways to keep people within the body of Christ.

I hope this is your personal opinion.

That would be unskilled paitents trying to be a doctor. Sorry, does not work and death is a result.

Actually, that's like a teacher learning from his students and students from their teachers. I sit down with my students and work with them at their level. Other teachers in other countries don't have that same level view. Students feel their teachers need to be respected so they lower their eyes and become shy to the knowledge they have for themselves without their teacher needing to bring it out of them.

It's trusting themselves.

As for doctors and patients, believe it or not, patients do tell the doctors what is wrong with them. For example, with Epilepsy, if my parent and I didn't tell the doctors what my symptoms are since "we're just the patience/family" and went off their books, I'd be misdiagnosed with all types of mess.

People would still think people with epilepsy are possessed with demons or the holy spirit because they trust their book more than the person actually going through the condition.

It's patients knowing more about their illnesses (their symptoms) than the doctors. How else can a doctor know about a condition if they feel they are the "gods" of medicine and need no patient collaboration and patients willing to be guinea pigs to test for medicine for deadly diseases?

Unity-the definition does not mean hierarchy. It means integration and togetherness.

You have to change your terminology for people to understand Bahai views.

 

[Vinayaka]

1) It is to the virtues we then look as to what is common Faith, with no Tag of Faith.

An Atheist living virtues would be living a Godly Life. A person of Faith with few virtues, would not be living a Godly Life.

2) Best to turn to the Most Skilled.

I agree with point 1, as I've never seen any relationship between being religious versus being a decent citizen. There are delicious apples and rotten apples on both sides.
2) Yes that is the fundamentalist position. All prophet based religions say the same thing except the name of the prophet changes. Another illustration why I personally could never be an adherent of a prophet based religion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I know.......
If you took the numbers in my date of birth, added them to yours and then handed the resulting figure to some folks, by spinning them around, calling seconds years (whatever) they would come up with exactly the correct date required.

Ah Love! could thou and I with Fate conspire,
To grasp this sorry Scheme of Things entitre,
Would not we shatter it to bits - and then
Re-mould it it nearer to our Heart's Desire!
Omar Khayyam

Who is to say that it is not all part of the same Sum.

Not I

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Nah nah!
But what about men? They cannot fly like a sparrow, nor swim like a porpoise, isn't that discrimination and favouritism of sparrows and porpoise? When's that going to change?

Have you done this on your dreams

All things are possible in the world of dreams, how much more when we throw of this illusion of flesh.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Carlita, just a few points.

We don't exclude ourselves from god. Many of us do not believe god exists. I've asked before, how do you decide to exclude yourself from something that does not exist???

Do not live the virtues, you exclude yourself of all that is good, call it what you wish.

I need not debate this.

I hope this is your personal opinion

Based on the writings. The whole purpose of life is to know and Love God.

We can live it life without comsidering that. It is our choice. I lived without God for many a fun year. It was an illusion of fun.

That is all I can offer. Sorry, busy and will be out for a few days, may get back from time to time.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Carlita, just a few points.



Do not live the virtues, you exclude yourself of all that is good, call it what you wish.

I need not debate this.



Based on the writings. The whole purpose of life is to know and Love God.

We can live it life without comsidering that. It is our choice. I lived without God for many a fun year. It was an illusion of fun.

That is all I can offer. Sorry, busy and will be out for a few days, may get back from time to time.

Regards Tony

You don't need to debate anything just discuss something outside your comfort level....

That's unity among diversity (that's what it was). Can't have that without going out of your comfort zone without feeling you need to compromise your core beliefs.

Will be continued.....

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Do not live the virtues, you exclude yourself of all that is good, call it what you wish.

You don't have to debate this unless you want to. It is a question. How can you exclude yourself from something that does not exist?

If I asked you this question outside of RF and said, how can I exclude myself from the party when there is no party going on, you may have an logical answer for me. Being in RF does not mean we must debate. You are making this into a debate. This is all on you; and it's just a question.

I need not debate this.

Discuss it instead. RF used to say: Religious Debates. Debate. Discuss. --something else-- they took it off. I think people forget the discuss part unfortunately.

Based on the writings. The whole purpose of life is to know and Love God.

Yes. To me, the whole purpose is to end rebirth.

An Atheist living virtues would be living a Godly Life. A person of Faith with few virtues, would not be living a Godly Life.

The reason I am discussing this with you is that your belief says unity among diversity, and with diversity you can bring about peace. You said you can find this with people of all religions and lack there of (the lesser peace) but what about the greater peace? Isn't that the whole point of being with diversity is having peace among the people who differ than you? (It's an oxymoron)

I assume atheists have virtues. They wouldn't say they are from god; but, I am getting sadly disappointed that you don't care about them as in their virtues without comparing them to you own. You comprise their beliefs for them but don't want them to ask you to look outside the box without comprising your beliefs.

Or maybe you're generalizing all atheists. Who knows.

We can live it life without comsidering that. It is our choice. I lived without God for many a fun year. It was an illusion of fun.

How did you live without god?​

Think about it. If atheists have virtues, they live a godly life. If you were an atheist with virtues, you lived a godly life. So how was god missing just because you didn't believe in him?

Atheism means disbelief in god's existence not disbelief in god in and of itself. I don't believe in christ but I know he exist in spirit. So I am not an atheist to that. I don't belief god exists.

So, how can one live without a god that does not exist? (Share a testimony??...because that does not make logical sense to me.)​

That is all I can offer. Sorry, busy and will be out for a few days, may get back from time to time.

Shrugs. I have been busy too. That's why I'm on the computer a lot. A lot of my work involves being online. This is a good way to take a break.

I just wish you can have a discussion outside your comfort zone. Your peers do so but I notice Bahaullah doesn't either. So, I don't know how to interpret that, honestly.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I came from the library today thinking about how can you exclude yourself from a god that does not exist. When I came around the back of my apartment complex near my apartment, I looked up at the sky, the clouds, the trees turning color in the heated fall, and the grass begging for water. "Weird," I thought. "I don't see god anywhere." How do people see god. Then I thought about rebirth. Everything goes in a cycle. I read that we give offerings to The Buddha to remind us that we not only are born and live we also die just as the flowers we put on the altar. There's a prayer about flowers dying as so we die too. That I can see looking at nature and elderly who live in the same complex as I do cherishing the last points of their life as a person just born again.

Then I stared again, "where is god in all of this?" aka translation, how is there a creator when everything goes in a cycle. That's like saying there is a beginning to a circle.

So, that's why I ask the question. I asked it to Christians before but didn't get an answer. I'm hoping maybe Bahai has a different spin on this? Hindu?

Don't know who else is lurkin' on this thread.

 

[Vinayaka]

I came from the library today thinking about how can you exclude yourself from a god that does not exist. When I came around the back of my apartment complex near my apartment, I looked up at the sky, the clouds, the trees turning color in the heated fall, and the grass begging for water. "Weird," I thought. "I don't see god anywhere." How do people see god. Then I thought about rebirth. Everything goes in a cycle. I read that we give offerings to The Buddha to remind us that we not only are born and live we also die just as the flowers we put on the altar. There's a prayer about flowers dying as so we die too. That I can see looking at nature and elderly who live in the same complex as I do cherishing the last points of their life as a person just born again.

Then I stared again, "where is god in all of this?" aka translation, how is there a creator when everything goes in a cycle. That's like saying there is a beginning to a circle.

So, that's why I ask the question. I asked it to Christians before but didn't get an answer. I'm hoping maybe Bahai has a different spin on this? Hindu?

Don't know who else is lurkin' on this thread.

I think your observations are spot on. As far as God goes, although we use the same term 'God' the conceptualisation is very very different between dharmic and abrahamic. For us Hindus, certainly, on the ultimate level, God just is. He doesn't really 'do' anything. In my sampradaya it's a bit more complicated, as we do have 3 perfections, one formless, and two with form. So when I look at nature, as you used that, I see God in it all. He is not apart from His emanation. Here, there, and everywhere. Not separate, like a puppeteer.

I like the impermanence, the constant change, the dance. But to beleive the permanent reality is also there is nourishing.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think your observations are spot on. As far as God goes, although we use the same term 'God' the conceptualisation is very very different between dharmic and abrahamic. For us Hindus, certainly, on the ultimate level, God just is. He doesn't really 'do' anything. In my sampradaya it's a bit more complicated, as we do have 3 perfections, one formless, and two with form. So when I look at nature, as you used that, I see God in it all. He is not apart from His emanation. Here, there, and everywhere. Not separate, like a puppeteer.

I like the impermanence, the constant change, the dance. But to believe the permanent reality is also there is nourishing.

Hmmm. The closest I can get to the "god-view" is gratitude and sense of connection since I'm part of nature too. So when someone says "people are destroying nature and global warming" I translate that as literally we-are instead of separating they from ourselves. It's more psychological than mystical, really.

The Buddha talks about perfections but his view is strictly to develop good perfections in ourselves among other human beings. I think some Buddhist cultures have a lot my mysticism to it.

Given god is not separate from creation a ourselves, what makes god, god to where the word in and of itself makes itself a separation in language from other things it's interrelated to?

Is the word god used for convenience in language but in itself absent in Hinduism (in how you see it)?

 

[Vinayaka]

Hmmm. The closest I can get to the "god-view" is gratitude and sense of connection since I'm part of nature too. So when someone says "people are destroying nature and global warming" I translate that as literally we-are instead of separating they from ourselves. It's more psychological than mystical, really.

The Buddha talks about perfections but his view is strictly to develop good perfections in ourselves among other human beings. I think some Buddhist cultures have a lot my mysticism to it.

Given god is not separate from creation a ourselves, what makes god, god to where the word in and of itself makes itself a separation in language from other things it's interrelated to?

Is the word god used for convenience in language but in itself absent in Hinduism (in how you see it)?

Some Hindus don't call this view 'God' at all. So I think much of it is in words, and words are of the intellect. God, knowing God, Self, understanding Self, etc., as you know, in dharmic faiths, it's not of the intellect, so it's really hard to say. I don't know' is most likely the best assessment I can give you.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Actually I usually get banned, I note there was a warning on my profile, not sure when that was put there

We don't want you getting banned from RF Tony.