How are these Great Beings explained?

[Dawnofhope]

For me personally, I don't really care how or who defines a religion.

I think you do care though, particularly if someone who isn't a Hindu defines your religion incorrectly. I care about how someone defines my religion too. However Baha'is are arguably more outward looking so are naturally interested in the global community as a whole, religion, history, science, and even politics. So it matters to us that other religions are presented fairly and we certainly don't want to be the one's misrepresenting other religions. That doesn't mean we don't have something to say about them.

If the Baha'i' want to define themselves as a religion, so be it. If others don't want to, that's fine too. As an outsider, it matters not, but I can understand how it would be important to Baha'i, as it adds legitimacy on the world stage.

We want to fair about how we define ourselves too. Abrahamic and world religion. That's relatively easy.

Being the fulfilment of prophecies of other world religions. That's where it gets interesting...lol

Hinduism is often though of as vast enough to be 4 religions: Saivism, Shaktism, Vaishnavism, and Smartism. Some people divide it up differently, but that's mostly used as a way describing the diversity of belief within the umbrella, and it often, in terms of diversity is considered by Hindus as roughly the equivalent of Abrahamism. 'Hindu' is an outsiders word, not our own. Still, most Hindus are sort of comfortable with the term and the misconceptions outsiders have of our diversity.

That all makes sense and resonates with the little I know.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Earlier this morning, my student and I were discussing the differences between forgot, forget, forgotten, and which to say in what tense, time, and use of regular and irregular verbs.

I gave up temporarily and said english as way to many exclusions to the rules. So she cant depend on me for truth just as I wouldnt The Buddha, Bahuallah, Christ, etc. But to The Buddha, to see them as truth defeats the point of his teachings. He is the exclusion.

In Dharmic religions there isnt true and false. How do you ask what is true and false to an educator whose language and culture lacks that view of the world?

I mean. I can ask christ, muhammad, and bahaullah true/falze questions. I cant ask Krishna. Most hindu on this board make it clear you cant learn about him online. It cant be The Buddha. You can read about him and do rituals but thats defeating the point.

So how do you find your definition of morality in dharmic religions?

I haven't asked too many in depth conversations with Buddhists or Hindus about their religion. My mother-in-law is Buddhist and my wife has Buddhist leanings due to her upbringing and Japanese side. Our sons both have Japanese names. We have visited many temples when in Japan. My experience is the Japanese (Zen-Buddhist/Shinto) have many excellent qualities. They are community orientated, value family, work, their emperor (who is ancestrally descended from god), courtesy, and cleanliness.

The Hindus I have come across are often nurses and doctors who have many excellent personal attributes. We hardly ever talk religion.

The last two days I have had a medical student assigned to me. She is a Muslim from Brunei, sponsored by her government to learn medicine in New Zealand. Once again, another wonderful soul, who I can see will be a tremendous doctor once she graduates.

So many wonderful people from all around the world with different faiths. It just affirms for me that we are all just one people sharing the same earth with one common faith.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Why is that a "winner"? Baha'is are not a "Faith" of deeds then... but a lot of words that others, non-Baha'is, should implement and fight for and give their lives for.

The Baha'i Faith is an international faith community dedicated to peace and propserity for all humanity and has endured efforts during its earliest days to erradicate it completely. Still it continues to develop and spread with a worldwide community of 5 - 7 million people, and has never fought a war against anyone. Thats why it is a winner.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Oops, I forgot. It's not the second coming we're talking about, but the fourth. The second coming is Muhammad. The third is The Bab. So Baha'u'llah is the fourth return of a manifestation of God. So all talk of any second coming has to be pointing to Muhammad. But I don't remember anything about a third and fourth coming of Jesus?

So what are the origins of the term second coming? It is actually the Greek word Parousia which means arrival or presence. The second coming is a term that has been coined much latter, but doesn't reflect the original biblical texts.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Could you tell me what Moses, Jesus, Buddha, Krishna and Muhammad really taught?

I can point you to the Writings that do explain and give those keys.

That is the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

But that falls apart from observation of action. The residential schools, the attempted genocides, germ warfare, the Crusades, the Spanish inquisition, (in South America as well) . 'Versatile' because it had more firepower, more money, and willing agitators. So you haven't convinced me one iota. Nor will you.

Here's a 'nice' list. List of people burned as heretics - Wikipedia

That is quite a list of genocidal, coercive, suppressive behaviour from my Abrahamic cousins, I can not deny lol. I suppose thats the problem for the Christian apologetics. There is just too much blood, I mean water under the bridge, and some people just don't want to forgive and forget. Fair enough. It does take the shine off one of my favourite religions, I must admit, but its the faith I grew up with so I still love Christianity warts and all.

In the meantime there are still a billion Hindus who've done none of that, undergone a horrific invasion and attempted cultural genocide or two, and remain incredibly strong. Have been for much longer than 2000 years. Temples like Tirupati, and Palani get 100 000 pilgrims PER DAY. Even the Catholic father giving a presentation at a teacher's institute I attended a few years back knew that in terms of religiosity, Hindus are the most enthusiastic group on this planet. That's why it's called a way of life.

Certainly a glowing appraisal of the Hindus but I'm not sure about believing Hindus haven't had a tendancy to overstep the mark when it comes to genocide either. Even if history proved the Hindus were guilty of barbarism and cruelty that in some cases parallelled their lesser Abrahamic brothers and sisters, I wouldn't hesitate to love them any less.

This does remind me of a scene in Mauritius I witnessed in 1984 though. The French Catholic Church poured a ton of money into religion there, figuring both the African animists, and the Indian Hindus would be easy targets for conversion. We were driving past a huge cathedral, as well as a small (very small) Tamil temple. The cathedral had a few French tourists and some locals going in, while the little Hindu temple was packed to overflowing. Since Hinduism made it's anti-conversion statements, and is still the majority there, the Christian groups have largely given up, moved on to greater harvesting markets.

I'm pleased the Hindus have had their victories, and Christians a few losses. I would be disappointed if it had been all one way traffic for the Abrahamic faiths. The Hindus have much to be proud of no doubt. The people's of the Indian subcontinent are no doubt very much loved and blessed by God, whoever, or whatever form He may take.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I hate to be rude and that is borderline prothlesizing or however you spell it.

I see it is above and past sensitivities.

Many see and know that the world as we know it is disintegrating, dying to find its unity. Each day another woe. There is no coming back from this. There will be great tests for all Humanity over the comming years until we join in a quest to cement our unity.

If in your heart you know you had the elixer in your hand and that if taken has no side effects but heals rapidly and you know this, as you have witnessed it working.

Would you keep on offering it, just in case. Also knowing there is no really no harm in offering while there are no hostilities?

If not when would you stop offering?

When I read Baha'u'llahs Letters to the The Rulers, leaders and Divines in His age, Baha'u'llah did not hesitate to convey the urgency of the Message He was giving. Baha'u'llah did not hesitate when he told of the dire results that negelect of that Message would bring.

"Oh God grant that the light of Unity may envelope all the whole earth and that the seal "The kingdom is Gods" may be stamped upon the brow of all its peoples."

Thus If one posts questions and remarks that indicate that one wishes to hear the point of view that a Baha'i may offer then can I suggest it is not prothlesizing.

So the question is, would you like me to stop offering, as I run fast from any talk when the word Prothlesizing is raised.

Actually I usually get banned, I note there was a warning on my profile, not sure when that was put there

Ya Baha'ul'abha.

Be happy always Carlita, better give you well wishes now.....I might get the boot. Ha ha

P/S Unity is URGENT!

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I think you do care though, particularly if someone who isn't a Hindu defines your religion incorrectly.

We want to fair about how we define ourselves too. Abrahamic and world religion. That's relatively easy.

'Care' in this sense comes in degrees. One can be mild to adamant about that. I really don't care very much, as Hindus themselves have varying viewpoints on it. There are threads I started on here to demonstrate that. Defining a religion or faith is a minor thing compared to putting the tenets into practice.

I don't feel Baha'i' has done justice to other religions, because of all the interpreting that differs from what the religious adherents themselves say. I prefer to go with the adherents views. It is their religion, after all. There is work to be done, and if the Baha'i' considered that more important, it would happen. I do see individuals varying substantially, just in this thread. For example, you have adjusted your 'manifestation' list at times to exclude Krishna, while others haven't.

 

[Vinayaka]

Certainly a glowing appraisal of the Hindus but I'm not sure about believing Hindus haven't had a tendancy to overstep the mark when it comes to genocide either. Even if history proved the Hindus were guilty of barbarism and cruelty that in some cases parallelled their lesser Abrahamic brothers and sisters, I wouldn't hesitate to love them any less.

Oh we have had our problems. Kings against kings especially, way back when. Could be called local wars, or perhaps feudal wars. No individual religion is free from some forms of himsa, even if it's nature is retaliatory.

I have come to dislike the term 'genocide'. After reading an astute article recently on emotional terms used in propaganda wars, this is one of them. It's right up there with 'terrorist' as a word often used as an allegation because of the emotional charge it has. I'm going to try to stop using it personally.

 

[Vinayaka]

So many wonderful people from all around the world with different faiths. It just affirms for me that we are all just one people sharing the same earth with one common faith.

Really excellent post until this part. Which common faith would that be? Are you excluding the atheists again?

 

[RoaringSilence]

Earlier this morning, my student and I were discussing the differences between forgot, forget, forgotten, and which to say in what tense, time, and use of regular and irregular verbs.

I gave up temporarily and said english as way to many exclusions to the rules. So she cant depend on me for truth just as I wouldnt The Buddha, Bahuallah, Christ, etc. But to The Buddha, to see them as truth defeats the point of his teachings. He is the exclusion.

In Dharmic religions there isnt true and false. How do you ask what is true and false to an educator whose language and culture lacks that view of the world?

I mean. I can ask christ, muhammad, and bahaullah true/falze questions. I cant ask Krishna. Most hindu on this board make it clear you cant learn about him online. It cant be The Buddha. You can read about him and do rituals but thats defeating the point.

So how do you find your definition of morality in dharmic religions?

hindu basically means being a seeker , you are simply a normal human being who is told about rebirths and consequences of your karma , beyond this you can choose to be anything that attracts you, why? because rest is all about inner work ...how to evolve your self to improve this life or future lives is upto you , and whatever path attracts you in this life is the truth of this life for that soul.

If you believe in an abrahamic model , where in god gives one life... and one chance to get it right and be rewarded or punished , it makes people who were born in un supportive conditions be it mental physical or spiritual to be able to access or have beliefs in tune with the abrahamic god impossible or difficult or not on a level playing field with those who can easily believe .

also considering the language barriers or even things like one particular region having an advantage over the other . all in all one life one chance is unfair and cannot explain the different tendencies / temperaments that we naturally inherit from our past life karma.

we also differ in the idea where you rid your sins onto one man and move on to heaven . that idea creates irresponsibility viz a viz the karma system.

morality is evolving and flexible , before morality comes inner seeking , self control and self knowledge .
More emphasis is given to intentions and purifying intentions more and more consciously .

Edit : Ill give an example here , west thinks eating dogs and cats is immoral coz they are man's best friends.. but chinese disagree ..indians think cow is mother for we drink its milk and is like a pet to us..but west/rest of world thinks its moral to eat cow ..

 

[loverofhumanity]

I wonder what a Bahai World would do to a person who declared themselves to be the new manifestation, in one thousand years' time?

Likely investigate his claim and if found to be true accept Him. But there would also be those who would reject him.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So those poor homosexuals will have to wait another 1000 years? That seems a bit unfair. The women will be able to be members of the House of Justice in a thousand years. Hey, it's a start. Better than never, I suppose.

All homosexuals and women are always accepted as equal human beings now and forever.

But what about men? They can’t have babies. Isn’t that discrimination and favouritism of women? When’s that going to change?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yeah. I see some Bodhisattvas with multiple arms or on elephants. That, or the different sites mixed up Hindu deities and Bodhisattvas.

Bodhisattva Samantabhadra

Well, I can't find any Hindu deities on elephants but some with elephant trunks. I never understood the symbolism and story behind either.

That’s so nice. What is an acceptable presentation of Ganesh by Hindus I wonder? I really love some of the designs I’ve seen of Ganesh.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Intellectual conjecturing and the ensuing arguments aren't my forte. But others are free to do that. I won't be participating any time soon.

Spirituality can’t really be expressed in everyday words anyway. It’s something that can only be experienced.

 

[Vinayaka]

All homosexuals and women are always accepted as equal human beings now and forever.

That's laughable, and I suspect you know it. You're far too smart not to know it. You can pretend it's true for a very long time, but eventually the truth will sink in, one way or another.

Yesterday had a long conversation with a former fundamentalist Christian acquaintance. He opened up to me (probably felt he had very few people to talk to, given his circle of friends) He now considers himself an atheist. One of the factors was that his son is gay. He realised this when the son was in grade 6, and thought ... 'My son is really going to need a friend when he finally comes out." So he knew, out of love for his child, that he had to prepare for that day. He explored it, and renounced fundamentalist Christianity, the infalliblity, the 'I'm right and you're wrong," attitude. He laughed when he told me "Now our house is a safe haven for all the gay kids, the LGBQ kids. It's their safe hangout." Our conversation ended with me giving him a hug, and congratulating him for no longer living the lie. It was really really heartwarming. He's a smart guy and I have far greater respect for him now. Previously I avoided any religious discussion with him, as he'd get upset, and go all fundamentalist on me. This has changed him ... for the better. He's finally free.

But it makes me ponder just what it takes for people stuck in dogma to break free. In his case it took the fatherly love for a son, (among other things) a pretty strong bond.

 

[Vinayaka]

Spirituality can’t really be expressed in everyday words anyway. It’s something that can only be experienced.

And yet some of us continue to try, lol.

 

[loverofhumanity]

And yet some of us continue to try, lol.

I agree but I prefer talking about spiritual things than to go out binge drinking and besides I learn something instead of killing my brain cells.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That's laughable, and I suspect you know it. You're far too smart not to know it. You can pretend it's true for a very long time, but eventually the truth will sink in, one way or another.

Yesterday had a long conversation with a former fundamentalist Christian acquaintance. He opened up to me (probably felt he had very few people to talk to, given his circle of friends) He now considers himself an atheist. One of the factors was that his son is gay. He realised this when the son was in grade 6, and thought ... 'My son is really going to need a friend when he finally comes out." So he knew, out of love for his child, that he had to prepare for that day. He explored it, and renounced fundamentalist Christianity, the infalliblity, the 'I'm right and you're wrong," attitude. He laughed when he told me "Now our house is a safe haven for all the gay kids, the LGBQ kids. It's their safe hangout." Our conversation ended with me giving him a hug, and congratulating him for no longer living the lie. It was really really heartwarming. He's a smart guy and I have far greater respect for him now. Previously I avoided any religious discussion with him, as he'd get upset, and go all fundamentalist on me. This has changed him ... for the better. He's finally free.

But it makes me ponder just what it takes for people stuck in dogma to break free. In his case it took the fatherly love for a son, (among other things) a pretty strong bond.

Why did he have to give up his religion? Christ taught love. Did his religious elders teach him to hate homosexual people?

We are taught not to see ‘otherness’. To accept all.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I see it is above and past sensitivities.

Many see and know that the world as we know it is disintegrating, dying to find its unity. Each day another woe. There is no coming back from this. There will be great tests for all Humanity over the comming years until we join in a quest to cement our unity.

If in your heart you know you had the elixer in your hand and that if taken has no side effects but heals rapidly and you know this, as you have witnessed it working.

Would you keep on offering it, just in case. Also knowing there is no really no harm in offering while there are no hostilities?

If not when would you stop offering?

When I read Baha'u'llahs Letters to the The Rulers, leaders and Divines in His age, Baha'u'llah did not hesitate to convey the urgency of the Message He was giving. Baha'u'llah did not hesitate when he told of the dire results that negelect of that Message would bring.

"Oh God grant that the light of Unity may envelope all the whole earth and that the seal "The kingdom is Gods" may be stamped upon the brow of all its peoples."

Thus If one posts questions and remarks that indicate that one wishes to hear the point of view that a Baha'i may offer then can I suggest it is not prothlesizing.

So the question is, would you like me to stop offering, as I run fast from any talk when the word Prothlesizing is raised.

Actually I usually get banned, I note there was a warning on my profile, not sure when that was put there

Ya Baha'ul'abha.

Be happy always Carlita, better give you well wishes now.....I might get the boot. Ha ha

P/S Unity is URGENT!

Regards Tony

I understand that. What I have been saying for awhile now is take a different approach (it is not about what you offer but how you offer it).

Take a "them" approach.

Offering "salvation" does not work as well as finding how each person views salvation, so they find it in themselves. When they find it in themselves, they have better relations with others. They don't need Bahaullah's elixir because they each have their own.

We don't need an offer of a cure but an offer of discussing among ourselves what cure is best for us.

It is unity based on joint collaboration.

Christ and Bahaullauh would have to be human on a non-divine level to do this. Joint collaboration means god helps you-tony decide what is true not. Offering god to all people and hoping for them to say yes every thousand of years is by definition waiting for others to believe the same as you. We'd go nowhere if Bahai depend on other people to "one day" follow Bahaullah interpretations only and not their own correct ones. It's respect.

I do not know if you understand what joint collaborations mean without god as the center of it. Finding unity is actually being interested in what others have to say and taking their view into consideration as truth. Because you are finding the elixir together. So if we find out Bahaullah is not the solution, then we have to follow that because it is not about you-bahai but about us-each person as a humanity.

It's alright to have a I-am-right religion. It is not something you can have if considering other people's views as truth and unity among with others. You can't find unity that way...just offer (and offer and offer) it until someone accepts.