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Charlottesville: It's about the 1st Amendment

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Absolutely not. Where on earth did you get that from? I said punch the guy, not sexual assault. And, only if that person is spewing racial epithets directly at you, inciting you to act.
To punch the guy specifically in the "nuts" is indeed very unwanted sexual 'touching'.
But let's say you would agree to eschew the sexual aspect of the violence, you're
still advocating legal assault for mere insults. And with racial privilege too.
Dang, man....I can only hope you're just being dramatic rather than serious.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
To punch the guy specifically in the "nuts" is indeed very unwanted sexual 'touching'.
But let's say you would agree to eschew the sexual aspect of the violence, you're
still advocating legal assault for mere insults. And with racial privilege too.
Dang, man....I can only hope you're just being dramatic rather than serious.
My point is that racist insults directed at a single person where history has proven that, very often, white racists move from words to violent actions without time to react, can reasonably be considered "fighting words".
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
To punch the guy specifically in the "nuts" is indeed very unwanted sexual 'touching'.
But let's say you would agree to eschew the sexual aspect of the violence, you're
still advocating legal assault for mere insults. And with racial privilege too.
Dang, man....I can only hope you're just being dramatic rather than serious.
You really think a black person should have to just sit there and take racist threats when, very often throughout history, those threats were backed up with immediate violence? I mean, you lived through the 60s, right? They have every reason to feel threatened.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
My point is that racist insults directed at a single person where history has proven that, very often, white racists move from words to violent actions without time to react, can reasonably be considered "fighting words".
Would you give black (but not white) cops the right to beat people who insult them too?
Fighting words, you know. How severe a beating would you legally allow....minor injury...
permanent disability....death?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
They might think they do, but I disagree. I think that anyone who spews racial epithets directly at a person of color is inciting imminent violence and can legally get punched in the nuts.
Nope. Free SPEECH means FREE speech. A person hearing something they don't like can walk away. Unless, of course, you are a Police Officer, then you ignore it. Therefore, violent response to WORDS are criminal, and the person who does so should be arrested . what about "persons of color" spewing racial hatred to, I guess, persons without color, what I refer to as European Americans? Do the racial dynanics change the wrongness of the act in your mind ?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You really think a black person should have to just sit there and take racist threats when, very often throughout history, those threats were backed up with immediate violence? I mean, you lived through the 60s, right? They have every reason to feel threatened.
I go with the law.
Use of deadly force is strictly for self defense.
But if you would make an insult equivalent to being threatened, this wouldn't lead anywhere positive.
And your conferring this right only upon black folk would face legal & social hurdles.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Would you give black (but not white) cops the right to beat people who insult them too?
Nope. Cops have weapons to defend themselves, and the right to use them when threatened. If a white supremacist is stupid enough to threaten a cop, they are already permitted to defend themselves.

Fighting words, you know. How severe a beating would you legally allow....minor injury...
permanent disability....death?
Just enough to defend themselves. Using racial slurs pointed at a specific person is the same as getting in someones face and saying "hit me or I'll hit you".
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Nope. Free SPEECH means FREE speech. A person hearing something they don't like can walk away. Unless, of course, you are a Police Officer, then you ignore it. Therefore, violent response to WORDS are criminal, and the person who does so should be arrested . what about "persons of color" spewing racial hatred to, I guess, persons without color, what I refer to as European Americans? Do the racial dynanics change the wrongness of the act in your mind ?
Racists have a long history of backing up their words with violence. Thus, black people have every reason to feel physically threatened when a white supremacist spews racial "speech" at them directly.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Nope. Free SPEECH means FREE speech. A person hearing something they don't like can walk away. Unless, of course, you are a Police Officer, then you ignore it. Therefore, violent response to WORDS are criminal, and the person who does so should be arrested . what about "persons of color" spewing racial hatred to, I guess, persons without color, what I refer to as European Americans? Do the racial dynanics change the wrongness of the act in your mind ?
It's not that I don't like the speech, which I don't. It's the history of white supremacists becoming violent without provocation.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Nope. Cops have weapons to defend themselves, and the right to use them when threatened.
But you've indicated that insults can be a threat.
So a black cop would be able to assault a white guy (or gal) for racial insults.
Back to my question, how far could the cop legally go in attacking the perp?
Mere beating or even so far as shooting?
Would this apply to an armed black guy who isn't a cop?
Hmmm.....would it be OK to attend a Nazi rally & just start shooting them all?
If a white supremacist is stupid enough to threaten a cop, they are already permitted to defend themselves.
We're all allowed to defend ourselves.
You're broadening defense to include attacking people for insults.
Just enough to defend themselves. Using racial slurs pointed at a specific person is the same as getting in someones face and saying "hit me or I'll hit you".
To ensure a clear understanding...
You give blacks but not whites the legal right to commit violent assault if insulted with racial epithets?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Nope. Free SPEECH means FREE speech. A person hearing something they don't like can walk away. Unless, of course, you are a Police Officer, then you ignore it. Therefore, violent response to WORDS are criminal, and the person who does so should be arrested . what about "persons of color" spewing racial hatred to, I guess, persons without color, what I refer to as European Americans? Do the racial dynanics change the wrongness of the act in your mind ?
You really think a black person should have to just sit there and take racist threats when, very often throughout history, those threats were backed up with immediate violence? I mean, you lived through the 60s, right? They have every reason to feel threatened.
You have changed from EPITHETS to THREATS not the same at all. A violent response to a threat is also unwise, and Illegal, words once again. Didn't your mother ever tell you about "sticks and stones ". I was a Jr. Hi, High school, and college student during the 60"s. I began as a LEO in 1969. For what it is worth, I was raised in a family that considered all people equal. My high school had a few black kids, but there was never any racial incidents. Growing up in the Southwest, I was raised with Hispanics. MY first incident of being called terrible names because I was Anglo was my second day of college, and the garbage came from a black person whom I didn';t know or had had any interaction with. Since my school was eight there in the political arena, with sit ins, takeovers, and demonstrations. I learned to laugh at their hatred of me because I was Anglo, as well as their filthy words
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
It's not that I don't like the speech, which I don't. It's the history of white supremacists becoming violent without provocation.
White Supremacists are scum, but scum with rights.Violence from ANYONE should be totally crushed by the Police. That is how we did it back in the day. There are black supremacists, black and Hispanic hate groups, this BS is part of the human condition.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Racists have a long history of backing up their words with violence. Thus, black people have every reason to feel physically threatened when a white supremacist spews racial "speech" at them directly.
Well, they have a right to their feelings. Most of us, when we feel truly threatened, we avoid it. You are trying to excuse black instigation of violence because words make them feel threatened.THERE IS NO EXCUSE, unless they are actually attacked, then respond., black violence in response to words is no more acceptable than whites doing the same.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Nope. Cops have weapons to defend themselves, and the right to use them when threatened. If a white supremacist is stupid enough to threaten a cop, they are already permitted to defend themselves.

Just enough to defend themselves. Using racial slurs pointed at a specific person is the same as getting in someones face and saying "hit me or I'll hit you".

Nope. Cops have weapons to defend themselves, and the right to use them when threatened. If a white supremacist is stupid enough to threaten a cop, they are already permitted to defend themselves.

Just enough to defend themselves. Using racial slurs pointed at a specific person is the same as getting in someones face and saying "hit me or I'll hit you".
Defend themselves from what ? Words ? In my long career in law enforcement, I never had to defend myself from words. Racial slurs are exactly what they are, nothing more. They are ugly, wrong, disgusting WORDS. They are not an act of violence.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Well, they have a right to their feelings. Most of us, when we feel truly threatened, we avoid it. You are trying to excuse black instigation of violence because words make them feel threatened.THERE IS NO EXCUSE, unless they are actually attacked, then respond., black violence in response to words is no more acceptable than whites doing the same.
You are ignoring history. And, in the situations in question, "avoiding it" is not an option. Many people were unable to escape the protest clashes, and racists were picking out random, non-violent people of color.

And, it has become all to clear that the white nationalist, alt-right, nazi protesters initiated the violence by throwing bottles before the counter-protesters. Once the first neo-nazi threw a bottle, their protest became illegal.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Defend themselves from what ? Words ? In my long career in law enforcement, I never had to defend myself from words. Racial slurs are exactly what they are, nothing more. They are ugly, wrong, disgusting WORDS. They are not an act of violence.
I disagree. Because of the countless examples of racists becoming violent unprovoked throughout American history following the use of racial slurs, people of color have every reason to feel physically threatened when they are spewed at them personally.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It's not dangerous until things start going off the rails, then it's really dangerous.


ahh, like Charlottesville... Got ya

Ok, so how is being responsible in law more dangerous than uncontrolled incitement?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
A balanced view of what happened.

Wow ... the minute it starts with a person wearing a "make america great again" hat and goes on to talk about BLM protests that weren't even in Charlottesville makes it all too apparent that this is the most biased, dishonest video of all time.
 
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