How are these Great Beings explained?

[InvestigateTruth]

It's that time again. Let's go back over it one more time. I forgot what was said. So first off, this is what I asked: "But why don't you tell me what the core beliefs of Christianity are to Baha'is?"

What do you believe Jesus taught?

So, your question is, what is the Bahai view on Jesus teachings. The best answer, from the Bahai View is how Abdulbaha explained Christ:


Briefly, this Man, Who appeared lowly in the eyes of all, arose nonetheless with such power as to abrogate a fifteen-hundred-year-old Dispensation, notwithstanding that the least deviation from its laws would expose the offender to grave danger and bring about his death and annihilation.
Moreover, in the time of Christ the general morals and manners of the Israelites had become entirely confused and corrupted, and Israel had fallen into a state of utmost degradation, misery, and bondage. At one time they fell captive to the Chaldeans and the Persians; at another they were under the yoke of the Assyrian Empire. One day they became the subjects and vassals of the Greeks; another they were subjugated and humiliated by the Romans.
This young Man, Christ, through an extraordinary power abrogated the ancient Mosaic Law and undertook to reform the morals of the people. He once again laid the foundation of eternal honour for the Israelites—nay, He undertook to rehabilitate the fortunes of the entire human race—and spread abroad teachings that were not reserved for Israel alone but formed the basis for the universal happiness of human society.
The first to arise to destroy Him were the Israelites—His own people and kindred. And to outward seeming they indeed overcame Him and reduced Him to utter abasement, till at last they crowned Him with the crown of thorns and crucified Him. But this Man, while outwardly immersed in deepest affliction, proclaimed: “This Sun will rise, this Light will shine resplendent, My grace will encompass the world, and all Mine enemies will be confounded.” And even as He spoke, so it came to pass, for all the kings of the earth were unable to resist Him. Nay, all their standards were cast down, while the standard of that Wronged One was raised to the loftiest heights.
Is this at all possible in accordance with the rules of human reason? No, by God! Then it is clear and evident that this glorious Being was a true Educator of the world of humanity and that He was aided and assisted by a divine power."

Then from your current post: What are the "evidences that the Bible Writers, and some of the early Christian believers, had the same interpretations as Bahai Faith has..."?

There are just many evidences, the Bible writers and some early Christians had the same interpretations as Bahais have, on topics, such as 6 days creation, Return of Prophets, resurrection, Jesus Mirror of God, every religion has an end, so does Christianity...etc.

Here are some sources:

1. For the 6 days creation interpretation of early Christians ,and even Jews, see here:

Six Ages of the World - Wikipedia


2. As for the Return of Prophets, the Bible gives an example that, John the Baptist was return of Elijah.

3. Bahai Scriptures teach that resurrection of the dead is an allusion to coming of a divinely inspired, by which the (unbeliever), becomes alive (guided). These terms also are defined in Bible the same way. For instance Jesus said 'let the dead bury their dead'. It is obvious that Jesus was calling a man 'dead', because he was unbeliever. There are many other verses, that being alive or resurrected means, spiritually guided.

4. There are evidences that early Christians called Jesus, Morror of God. And that God is like the Sun. This is the exact analogy that Bahai Scriptures uses to explain the station of Manifestation of God. For an example of Christian source, see here:

"Through Him let us look steadfastly unto the heights of the heavens; through Him we behold as in a mirror His faultless and most excellent
visage...." 1Clem 36:2
Source: First Clement: Clement of Rome

Also:

the great theologian Origen (185-254 C.E.), citing the Book of Wisdom, called Christ 'the spotless mirror' of God's workings (Origen, On First Principles 26).
Source: Jesus the spotless mirror

St. Basil also explains the commandments that Jesus received by " the reflexion of an object in a mirror"
Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

5. Bahai scriptures teaches that Religion of God goes through seasons, like Spring, Summer...winter. There are verses of Bible that alludes to this. For instance in Chapter of Revelation, it is said the fruits of the tree falls, just as the stars fall. This is an allusion to the season of the Fall, when the tree has no more fruits. It is the end, and after that Spring comes (new revelation).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That seems logical, until you 'investigate' further. The problem with that idea is that I've talked to meditators, and heard many differing descriptions of experiences during meditation, often varying substantially from my own. Either everyone has very poor communication skills, or the experiences are actually different. With meditation, there is also the factor of 'years practice' at it. Just as a beginning pianist differes from the concert pianist, so too does the beginning meditator differ from the experience monk who has meditated 3 hours a day for 60 years.

So too with the nature of God. It's all fine to say it's similar, but then when everyone describes their version, why in the world does it all sound so incredibly different?

As for one God, I believe in only one Supreme God ... my version is henotheism.

You know. I think I surprisingly agree with @adrian009 on this since we are not aliens to each other. I wouldn't consider this specific to Bahaism but agreement nonetheless.

You were mentioning that Adrian and your mystical experiences differ from each other even though Bahai sees similarity. Since I don't know Bahai, I use myself as an example.

Think of this: We are not aliens to each other. While I can say your experiences as a lay follower is less extensive in interpretation as a monk, it is still the same nonetheless. I like The Buddha's view of it. He contends that everyone is the same. His meditation and enlightenment is no different than mine and another Buddhist beside me. Though our practice may be different, we still are the same.

I'm thinking of The Buddha who says our enlightenment is the same. Our results from experiences, because we are not alien to each other, are the same but our spiritual foundations are not since our source is not.​

We are both human.

With that, I don't call it god or god a he. I just "be." That is my prayer. Whether I talk with Spirit depends but usually it's just with family in spirit as collectively we are all Spirit. Then you have Spirit that is the energy (I mention this in other threads so this isn't piggy backed on Hinduism) that keeps us alive. Actual real energy that each person needs in order for everything to work properly.

Everyone has this. So when we both meditate, we may interpret our experiences drastically different and respect our interpretations as different because the source is different, the experience-the actual energy you conduct through your body through Chakras in and of itself is not different.

Our spiritual source is different. The results of our practice are the same. They are the same because the practice affects our body psychologically and biologically. Unless we consider ourselves aliens, we still feel pain together even though the intensity and how we interpret stubbing our toe is completely different. (We can stub our toe on different things/source but we still feel pain/result)​

It's like a Buddhist monk, Christian, and atheist stub our toes. We each say ouch in our respective languages. We still experience pain. A Buddhist pain could have shot up to his mind and let him think that if he controls his perspective of pain, it won't bother him mentally. A Christian may think the devil has caused this because it correlates to a sinful thought they feel they need punishment for. A atheist could just shrug his shoulders with no spiritual and theological attribute to the pain itself.

Both all three still feel pain because you are all human with nerves, mind, and body. You bleed the same and, assuming everyone is healthy, you heal the same as well.

Regardless of your theological and religious perspective and interpretation, our feelings are the same. The intensitive is not and where we stub our toe is not.

Now, I disagree with Bahai in throwing away "names" or culture and practice as part of the core foundation of one's belief; but, if you think of it without the names and belittlement of faith, we are not aliens to each other.​

Edit So, if I asked a Christian, Bahai, Hindu, and Muslim about their spiritual experiences, of course I'll get different answers hoping that I do get more indepth answers in conversation. Of course, the intensive and interpretation to all four religious is the are different as they are seen as the experience itself to the religious.

However, let me add another short example is the DSM book. It lists a lot of mental health conditions and illnesses that psychiatrist use for diagnoses. While one person's depression is different than another person's, there are still common edit foundations that let the psychiatrist know both clients suffer from depression regardless if both seem to experience different things.

edit What I don't care for in Bahai is saying these similarities are core foundations while disregarding the culture and everything else the people believe in that, to them, makes these experiences different. It's an insult really. Though we are not aliens to each other, so my experience is logically not your experiences (we are not each other) our similarity is we are both humans and outside of religion, my physical and biological experiences only in meditation are the same outside of our religious and cultural views.

Without cultural and religious views, what you experience when you meditate is what I experience (pretending we both are pros at meditation) because energy does not change based on religion. That's why people can convert to Hinduism because energy is universal. Just The Buddha sees pain from the mind. Christians may interpret pain from the devil. And so forth.​

Not the same religiously. The same because we are both human. Just a lot of times it get mixed up. So, although you and Bahai believe in god, that does not mean I do not believe in god. Everything comes from the mind (sorry, I'm Buddhist at foundational beliefs) so my mind is not different than yours in regards to thinking in and of itself. Just association and interpretation between our given faiths and lack thereof.

Regardless how I translate "god" we are still energy. To me, it is not a mystical experience. No need chakras. No need for progression. No need sacred-text. No need for temples. We "are". Without attachment because that is how we were born.

Yes, we disagree on interpretation but think about it outside of religion. We are all humans. So what from your experience with god can I lack besides "where" I stubbed my toe and how we interpret the pain itself?​

Not the same or integration or unification of experiences as Bahai say are in all religions. Separate experiences. Separate interpretations. Separate religions. Same mind. Same body. That is the core foundation (without an s).

Who can say that energy (god or life) changes by definition based on that person's faith?​

Since we are not aliens from each other, outside of cultural terms just pure biology and psychology, what about each of our experiences (don't need the word mystical sense they are common sense to you) that makes it different for another person not religiously (Brahma and god of abraham aren't the same) but physical and mental results from our practices that make you Hindu, Adrian Bahai, and I a Spiritualist?

Last edit Saying that we have different experiences (biological and psychological not referring to spiritual) is saying we are aliens from each other. Our spiritual experiences are drastically different because the foundation is based on our culture and practice. But if I asked you Vinakaya, Lover, or Deeje explain your experience whatever terms you use, the results that affect you biologically and psychologically (the pain itself not the intensitive or where) are the same. We are all humans.

It is not unification or integration. It's not a spiritual core foundation that is the same. Just saying the only common foundation we have is we are all human (I think we said this before). The spiritual core affects the physical core. When it does, we can talk from the results because energy travels biologically through mind and body in every person.

It is just rude to compare each other's spiritual foundations rather than results with each other. It's an insult to say Krishna and god of abraham are the same because of virtues. It is not an insult to say both of you experienced X in your mind and/or body because we are not aliens to each other. Just our culture and religious views lets some of us be more open to their results-say Bahai and others more internal-say Catholic.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Well that's not what Catholics believe. They trace a line all the way back to Peter who, for them, was appointed by Jesus.

Catholics do not believe Peter was infallible interpreter of Word of God, and after Jesus, all must turn to him, and obey him, do they? Neither there is any verse in Bible saying all must obey the Catholics church as successors of Christ.

With the Baha'i Faith, was the Guardian expected to appoint the next Guardian?

Based on the writings of Abdulbaha, it seems that the Guardian was expected to appoint the next guardian. But also Abdulbaha wrote, whatever Shoghi Effandi decides, all must obey Him. Who ever disobeys Him, has also disobeyed God. Shoghi Effandi did not choose anyone as the next guardian. Bahais obeyed His decision.

With the UHJ, is their decisions can be changed, how is that "infallible"?

Yes, they can change their own decisions, based on the conditions of the time. As the conditions change, they may change their own statements to suit the new requirements.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So Moses wasn't the founder of Judaism, Jesus didn't found Christianity, and Muhammed didn't start Islam. Just who did then?

I think somehow what I wanted to say, was misunderstood.

I did not say, Jesus was not founder of Christianity, or Muhammad was not founder of Islam, etc. I said, in my view Abrahamic Religions were founded by a number of Manifestations, in the same way that Hiduism was founded by a number of Avatars, one of Them being Krishna. In Bahai View, Avatars are Manifestations of God, in the same way that Jesus, Moses..or Muhammad are Manifestations of God. As I had also mentioned before, in Bahai View, each Manifestation presented Himself in a different way, based on His Mission. Some presented Themselves as Prophets or Messengers of God. Some Presented Themselves as God or a Manifestation of God. In Bahai View, if any of Them had said, He is God Himself, had said the very Truth. That is exactly what Bahaullah said in the Book of Iqan.
And I can see, how this may appear contradictory to others, saying how can a person be Manifestation of God, and Messenger of God. Can God be His own Messenger?
Bahai Scriptures explains this using an analogy. Manifestations are like Mirrors Reflecting Image of the Sun. If you look at the Mirror, saying this is a Mirror, you are correct. If you look at the Mirror, and say, this is the Sun, it is also correct, because image of the Sun is manifested in the Mirror, so you see the Sun in the Mirror. In the Same way, we see God's image in His messengers. Thus, we when they presented Themselves as Messengers, or as God, both are describing the Truth, from a different point of View, and no contradiction.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think somehow what I wanted to say, was misunderstood.
in the same way that Hiduism was founded by a number of Avatars, one of Them being Krishna. In Bahai View, Avatars are Manifestations of God,

Again, much of Hinduism doesn't believe in avatar concept, PERIOD. I DO NOT believe in avatars. Please do yourself a favor by reading about Hinduism some before continuing with the falsehoods.

Not believing in Manifestations or Not believing in God as in the case of atheists, is definitely contradictory to Baha'i' teachings. Whether or not you're willing to admit that is another matter altogether.

 

[Vinayaka]

I'm thinking of The Buddha who says our enlightenment is the same. Our results from experiences, because we are not alien to each other, are the same but our spiritual foundations are not since our source is not.​

We are both human.

I'm just not sure. Unable to experience how others experience meditation for myself makes it at best conjecture. Certainly two Hindu saints of different lineages will agree, and Buddhism and Hinduism are very close, but after that I have serious doubts. Lots of Abrahamism thinks meditation is the work of the devil, so it seems they think quite differently.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Again, much of Hinduism doesn't believe in avatar concept, PERIOD. I DO NOT believe in avatars. Please do yourself a favor by reading about Hinduism some before continuing with the falsehoods.

Not believing in Manifestations or Not believing in God as in the case of atheists, is definitely contradictory to Baha'i' teachings. Whether or not you're willing to admit that is another matter altogether.

The Bahai View with regards to concept of Avatar, is more in agreement with those Hindu scriptures or sources which mentions Avatars.
It is like, the Quranists sect of Islam does not believe in Mahdi, or Qaim, but the Shia and Sunni Sources mentions Qaim or Mahdi many times. Bahai view, with regards to belief in Qaim, is in agreement with those Muslim Sources that mentions Qaim or Mahdi.

Also, it should be noted, that disbelief in Avatar, does not make the idea false. For instance Atheists disbelieve in God, but their disbelief does not make the belief in God false.

 

[Vinayaka]

1) The Bahai View with regards to concept of Avatar, is more in agreement with those Hindu scriptures or sources which mentions Avatars.
2) Also, it should be noted, that disbelief in Avatar, does not make the idea false. For instance Atheists disbelieve in God, but their disbelief does not make the belief in God false.

1) Yes, I know. I'm a Hindu. You don't need to teach me about Hinduism. I'll try not to teach you about Baha'i'.
2) Nor does belief make anything true. It is just belief or disbelief, nothing else. The belief in God does not make it true.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm just not sure. Unable to experience how others experience meditation for myself makes it at best conjecture. Certainly two Hindu saints of different lineages will agree, and Buddhism and Hinduism are very close, but after that I have serious doubts. Lots of Abrahamism thinks meditation is the work of the devil, so it seems they think quite differently.

I think abrahamics have a different interpretation of meditation. Its definitely not Zen Buddhism and definitely not Nichiren either. Though, weirdly enough, when we first met they were curious if I "got" the spiritual experience they received from the Dhamma. I notice that because we are human and obtain information basically the same way and having practiced a different sect of the same lineage, I explained the mystical nature of their practice. They were surprised. Many people cant or dont want to explain their spirituality in words but if we are depressed we can tell our innermost emotions that to us are not the same as another but to the professional they are.

For example, if you and I meditated and we had the same words for our practice, our culture manuisms, thoughts, and goals would be drastically different. When we get up we may feel a se sense of calmness, understanding, "being", nothing and something at the same time, closer to wisdom, or maybe a sense of love. Different human emotions and sensations both of us can experience because we are both human.

Of course, if you stubbed your toe on cement and I a piece of wood, our pain maybe quite different because of the source. However, the pain still is a reaction of the nerves in both our bodies. So we both feel pain.

It is logical to say the definition of pain is different because of the source. (Say cement Brahma and wood GOA) but a doctor would identify it as pain nonetheless.

But both of us feeling pain does not mean our perceptions and religious interpretations are the same. That and most people interpretation is one with the source. Thats why bahai and hindu are so different.

But my not believing in god, well both brahma and GOA, i can see surface similarities but virtues are always different based on the religion rather that just being "pain".

 

[CG Didymus]

Which teachings are you referring to? We believe all the Manifestations are infallible but what has been interpreted and handed down through the ages to this day are not necessarily what was originally taught...

That's what I'm talking about... "what has been interpreted and handed down...not necessarily what was originally taught." So what was originally taught?

In your next post you mention one: "it was Ishmael not Isaac that was offered up as a sacrifice." So Judaism and Christianity has that wrong? Does Islam also believe it was Ishmael?

 

[CG Didymus]

The only measurement we have of the accuracy of the recording or/and interpretation of previous Holy Books is what the latest Manifestations have told us.

So for instance, Baha'u'llah said it was Ishmael not Isaac that was offered up as a sacrifice. As a Manifestation of God He had innate knowledge of these things.

Just out of interest Baha'u'llah said it was He that spoke to Moses in the Burning Bush episode. We know the Manifestations are pre existent so have knowledge of both the past and the future and thus are able to correct today's misinterpretations of scripture.

They know exactly what was said and what was meant and only reiterate that when They appear.

So Baha'u'llah is not reinterpreting the scriptures of old but revealing what was originally meant and intended by the previous Manifestations which the people have changed over the ages.

So Moses was not speaking directly to God? And Ishmael not Isaac? Where's Tumah when I need him?

 

[CG Didymus]

So now other religions have some false and some true teachings, but Baha'i' stands alone as the only faith with only true teachings? That seems a little illogical, but then do Baha'i's really have a choice?

So yes you are probably following some false teachings, like reincarnation and not believing in the manifestations. But not to worry, you are not going to hell. Hell is a false teaching of the Christians. So you should be good.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Christians are waiting for the return of Christ. They are obligated to recognise the returned Christ when He comes and follow His teachings.

The NT says to beware of false Christ and then there's the Beast and Anti-Christ. So what does the NT say to look for? And what do Christians usually tell you they are looking for? Since I'm sure what you think the NT says and what they think it says are going to be different.

 

[CG Didymus]

What Christians believe and Christ taught are not necessarily the same thing.

That's related to what I asked a few posts ago. What did Christ teach? He didn't write the NT. Can it be trusted. One Baha'i, I believe, said the apostles were infallible, but they weren't the only ones involved in writing the NT. Of course the craziest thing they wrote, if the Baha'is are right, is that Jesus rose from the dead. Why would they write that knowing that it is them the apostles and the other believers that were the "resurrected" body of Christ?

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, and they're still waiting. You insinuated it was important they recognised Baha'u'llh. But they haven't. I suspect many don't care much at all. The return of Christ, according to them, if I get it right, it will be far more dramatic than another 'wise' man showing up somewhere. Some 10 000 others have made the same claim, after all. A couple on these forums, as you know.

Much more dramatic... Jesus comes down riding a white horse and totally kicks butt on all the evil people and ushers in peace. He don't mess around with giving a bunch of laws and expecting people to put them into practice, no. The bad guys have like a two million person army or something and are marching towards Jerusalem. They lose big time in the Battle of Armageddon. It's like totally epic.

But... we all know that's all symbolic. So I wonder what the Baha'i "real" interpretation of all that is?

 

[CG Didymus]

Personally, I can only go with what they believe, as I'm not convinced Christ existed. But again, I'm pretty indifferent to what they believe, and know basically nothing.

How could you think for a minute that he didn't exist? So many proofs. An angel told Mary she was going to have a kid. A star moved in the sky and hovered over the place where he was born. How often does that happen? King Herod sends his men to go kill the kid, but an angel warns the parents to get Jesus out of town. Pretty much nothing is heard of Jesus for about 30 years. Then the Holy Spirit descends on his shoulder in the form of a dove and a voice calls out from heaven, "This is my beloved Son." That is obviously God speaking. He wanders in the desert for 40 days and gets tempted by the Devil. He resists. He cures people and performs all sorts of miracles. He walks on water. Yes, on water. The evil people kill him, but he conquers death and rises from the dead. And to finish things off, he ascends into the clouds and on up to heaven.

All of this is true, you can count on it, because the NT says so... and it's the infallible Word of God... except where it is not true or only symbolic.

 

[CG Didymus]

The problem is the original teachings become distorted over time. A religion can be like a tree that grows, bears fruits and eventually whithers and dies. That is why a new Teacher is necessary.



We all have a choice.

Are the Holy Books, like the Gita, the Bible, etc, distorted or only the interpretations of those books?

 

[CG Didymus]

We probably do not know the names of those older religions. Perhaps Noahide, was name of Noah's. But based on Scriptures, each made a new covenant.

But they were not infallible, perfect mirrors. So I don't see how they can be called manifestations, especially Adam. And all of them are surrounded by mythic events, like Adam being placed in the Garden of Eden and then getting kicked out, and Noah and his family being the only human survivors of a world-wide flood. If those things are mythical or symbolic, then what is real about them, the people?

 

[CG Didymus]

All the way through the Tanach, the prophets are not changing the system that Moses put into place, they're affirming it and attempting to return the Jews to it. That's quite different then Jesus, Muhammad, Mirza Husayn and Haile Selassie who are attempting to convert or completely fabricate a new system. Because of that, they don't have the initial revelation as a base to stand on.

Christianity, mostly because of Paul, does away with following the Law, even though Christians still follow commands and moral laws. But Islam and the Baha'i Faith have all sorts of laws. And with the Baha'i Faith, their laws are what is needed to bring the world together in peace and harmony.

The Baha'is are okay with making some of God's Laws from older religions obsolete, because those laws were "social" laws, and only meant for that time and place. So what I was wondering was... is there a revising or updating process in Judaism that allows laws to be adapted to modern times?

 

[Tumah]

Well, I would offer in that case, a Global Revelation to all Nations may indeed be worth considering. Thus the Jews as a Nation, are offered the same Message and on acceptance, fulfill their destiny.

That is not the revelation that we are talking about. The National Revelation that we experienced at Mt. Sinai was a revelation of G-d to us all. There was no question that the G-d of the Jews was G-d of the world and He was communing with us.

Did your god call thunder and lightning, fire and clouds? Did he open the heavens for all to see?

The Texts say what they say. G-d filfills the requirement of these scriptures in a way G-d so pleases to do. If we pre interpret, those interpretations become veils and clouds that limit our ability to see the Light of G-d.

On the other hand, by first deciding what you want the interpretation to be and then fitting it into a passage, you can make any passage in anything be about anything.

As you've done in two lines from here.

Is there anywhere in scripture where what Man expected, actually happend as they thought it would?

Yes. All over the place. G-d says He's going to bring a flood. He brings a flood.
Abraham is told that his children would be suffering servants in a strange land. Guess what happens!
He's told that he'll have a child. No need for spiritual children here - a year later a real boy is born!
He's going to destroy Sodom. Pew pew. No more Sodom.

Is there anywhere in Scriptures where something is prophesied and its recorded that the fulfillment ends up being not a literal interpretation of what was said?

We can read Ezekiel 43:4 and see "The glory of the LORD entered the temple through the gate facing east.

Thus Baha'u'llah (Glory of the Lord), did come through the Bab (Gate) from Persia (East) to the Holy land. Not by himself by by persecutions and banishment.

So you just lift a verse out of a four chapter long prophecy about the Temple, to be about your god? You guys learned something from the Christians that's for sure.

Then we have this to support Persia; Jeremiah 49:38"I will set my throne in Elam and destroy her king and officials," declares the LORD. Baha'u'llah did indeed bring the Kings and Officals down from their thrones and places of power.

That's great, but this passage is talking about the Persia/Media exile. The very next verse says how G-d would gather us back from there. This has already happened.

What you are doing is, you found something in your god's life that has a verse that is similar to it. Its called eisegesis.

How can any ordinary Man that is not supported by G-d filfill all prophetic scriptures with no input to do so?

The prophecies have yet to be fulfilled.