There's no "Fall of Man" in Genesis

[DavidFirth]

I doubt if I've ever seen a person who thinks he knows everything as well as you think you do.

You don't understand the "Fall of Man" and I doubt seriously if you ever truly will because your mind is so closed to the concept.

 

[blü 2]

You don't understand the "Fall of Man" and I doubt seriously if you ever truly will because your mind is so closed to the concept.

If you disagree with my take on the fall of man, this is your perfect opportunity to point out which parts of the text of the Genesis story disagree with my interpretation, and to explain clearly your own interpretation and how you've derived it.

That's the very reason this thread is here.

Go for it!

 

[Thief]

I see now....two fronts to this topic....

what believers think to be the explanation for Man's condition and stress of living
and the pending fall of extinction pending

 

[Tammie]

Thief said: so.....Chapter Two
a reboot, an upgrade....an alteration
and the apple test to make sure the manipulation took hold

Wow Thief! You make it sound like we are a bunch of rats being experimented on in a laboratory, where the scientist takes the test-tubes in from what is collected....and the results of it are pending.

No thanks. That sounds pretty twisted. As a viewer, I am learning a lot of things from the one's you call Believers. So, please....let us that are viewing, view from those who are searching the reality of it.

As Evangelicalhumanist said: How very sad. This thread started with actually quite a good post (and decent exegesis) by @blü 2 , This does a real disservice to the opening poster.

 

[DavidFirth]

If you disagree with my take on the fall of man, this is your perfect opportunity to point out which parts of the text of the Genesis story disagree with my interpretation, and to explain clearly your own interpretation and how you've derived it.

That's the very reason this thread is here.

Go for it!

Very easy. Man was created without sin. Man sinned. That's the fall of Man. It's that simple.

 

[Thief]

Thief said: so.....Chapter Two
a reboot, an upgrade....an alteration
and the apple test to make sure the manipulation took hold

Wow Thief! You make it sound like we are a bunch of rats being experimented on in a laboratory, where the scientist takes the test-tubes in from what is collected....and the results of it are pending.

No thanks. That sounds pretty twisted. As a viewer, I am learning a lot of things from the one's you call Believers. So, please....let us that are viewing, view from those who are searching the reality of it.

As Evangelicalhumanist said: How very sad. This thread started with actually quite a good post (and decent exegesis) by @blü 2 , This does a real disservice to the opening poster.

open an op

I will show you

 

[Thief]

Very easy. Man was created without sin. Man sinned. That's the fall of Man. It's that simple.

I don't believe that

Man was a species on Day Six
no names, no law, no garden.....and no God leading Him about

the garden event was an upgrade
and God was present

after the correction the specimen was released into the environment
compared to the ideal conditions of the garden.....
and the pending event of death
it would indeed appear as a fall

But Man was never intended to live forever physically
and that made the upgrade needful

I think it note worthy.........sin.....
in Spanish
means..... without

so...Adam and Eve did not live in sin when living in the garden
they lived in sin after the garden....without God

we do now

 

[blü 2]

Very easy. Man was created without sin. Man sinned. That's the fall of Man. It's that simple.

I'm glad you find it simple.

Pity Genesis says nothing of the kind.

I notice you didn't accept my invitation to point to textual errors in the OP, and make a reasoned case for your claims. One day, perhaps you might like to put aside all the later overlays and see for yourself what Genesis actually says. Until then, good luck.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

No thanks. That sounds pretty twisted.

So, reality must conform to your emotional whim?

Man was created without sin. Man sinned.

That's like saying the Titanic was unsinkable and now it's at the bottom of the ocean.

But Man was never intended to live forever physically

Indeed. You had to eat magic fruit to get that perk. Even in other global myths with magic foods, gods were only immortal as long as they made the food or drink a regular part of their diet. Empty their pantry and they die like everyone else.

they lived in sin after the garden....without God

God didn't live in Eden, though. He's supposedly omnipresent. Besides, God sure does hang out with humans afterward a lot for Someone who doesn't want to be around us anymore.

 

[DavidFirth]

So, reality must conform to your emotional whim?


That's like saying the Titanic was unsinkable and now it's at the bottom of the ocean.


Indeed. You had to eat magic fruit to get that perk. Even in other global myths with magic foods, gods were only immortal as long as they made the food or drink a regular part of their diet. Empty their pantry and they die like everyone else.


God didn't live in Eden, though. He's supposedly omnipresent. Besides, God sure does hang out with humans afterward a lot for Someone who doesn't want to be around us anymore.

"That's like saying the Titanic was unsinkable and now it's at the bottom of the ocean."

Please elaborate. Man is/was not an unsinkable boat in the minds of the designers.

 

[DavidFirth]

I'm glad you find it simple.

Pity Genesis says nothing of the kind.

I notice you didn't accept my invitation to point to textual errors in the OP, and make a reasoned case for your claims. One day, perhaps you might like to put aside all the later overlays and see for yourself what Genesis actually says. Until then, good luck.

Genesis says exactly that. Adam & Eve were created perfect, without blemish. They sinned and "fell" short of the glory of God. That's the fall of Man. Easy concept until someone like you wants to try to throw a stone into the middle of it and confuse it because you either do not understand it or you do understand it and just wish to confuse it for whatever reason.

 

[DavidFirth]

I don't believe that

Man was a species on Day Six
no names, no law, no garden.....and no God leading Him about

the garden event was an upgrade
and God was present

after the correction the specimen was released into the environment
compared to the ideal conditions of the garden.....
and the pending event of death
it would indeed appear as a fall

But Man was never intended to live forever physically
and that made the upgrade needful

I think it note worthy.........sin.....
in Spanish
means..... without

so...Adam and Eve did not live in sin when living in the garden
they lived in sin after the garden....without God

we do now

Opinion noted. Your assumptions are wrong, though, according to the text.

 

[blü 2]

God didn't live in Eden, though.

Are you sure? Last Christmas card I had was addressed from 13 Railway St, Eden Heights.

Could be a holiday shack, I guess.

 

[blü 2]

Genesis says exactly that. Adam & Eve were created perfect, without blemish.

Nope, Genesis says nothing of the kind. If you disagree, quote me the text.

They sinned and "fell" short of the glory of God.

Nope, Genesis says nothing of the kind. If you disagree, quote me the text.

That's the fall of Man.

There's no fall of man in Genesis. Read the OP carefully. To this point only one of us respects the words of the bible and it ain't you.

Easy concept

What's an easy concept, exactly?

until someone like you wants to try to throw a stone into the middle of it and confuse it because you either do not understand it or you do understand it and just wish to confuse it for whatever reason.

Now now, mo charaid, that's just nonsense.

There's no confusion in the Garden story.

The words are there for you to read and understand.

Since you say it's your book, seems to me it's high time you did.

THEN AND ONLY THEN if you disagree with the OP, point specifically to any errors you want to allege, and justify your claim from the text. (All my claims are directly based on the text, after all.)

Or do you think 'truth' is the same thing as feelgood and you can just check your brain at the door?

 

[Thief]

Opinion noted. Your assumptions are wrong, though, according to the text.

so the text is read correctly.....you do not object?......I have read the terms as is

but still you say I'm wrong

you should expound on that

 

[Thief]

So, reality must conform to your emotional whim?


That's like saying the Titanic was unsinkable and now it's at the bottom of the ocean.


Indeed. You had to eat magic fruit to get that perk. Even in other global myths with magic foods, gods were only immortal as long as they made the food or drink a regular part of their diet. Empty their pantry and they die like everyone else.


God didn't live in Eden, though. He's supposedly omnipresent. Besides, God sure does hang out with humans afterward a lot for Someone who doesn't want to be around us anymore.

and you see the obvious......the fruit is presented.....partaking is denied

the question then becomes......why would God do that?
and the obvious answer would be
it's a test
to make sure the alteration took hold

live forever in this world?......planet bound?

God intervenes .....of course he does
we would still be animals scratching and snapping at each other
if not for the alteration

ooooops!
maybe the evening news is not favoring that positive idea

 

[DavidFirth]

Nope, Genesis says nothing of the kind. If you disagree, quote me the text.

Nope, Genesis says nothing of the kind. If you disagree, quote me the text.

There's no fall of man in Genesis. Read the OP carefully. To this point only one of us respects the words of the bible and it ain't you.

What's an easy concept, exactly?

Now now, mo charaid, that's just nonsense.

There's no confusion in the Garden story.

The words are there for you to read and understand.

Since you say it's your book, seems to me it's high time you did.

THEN AND ONLY THEN if you disagree with the OP, point specifically to any errors you want to allege, and justify your claim from the text. (All my claims are directly based on the text, after all.)

Or do you think 'truth' is the same thing as feelgood and you can just check your brain at the door?

You're too stubborn. No sense in continuing this discussion with you. Enjoy your day.

 

[DavidFirth]

so the text is read correctly.....you do not object?......I have read the terms as is

but still you say I'm wrong

you should expound on that

Your assumptions that are not in the text:

1. no names, no law, no garden.....and no God leading Him about; where is all of this in the text?

2. the garden event was an upgrade; upgrade from what?

3. after the correction the specimen was released into the environment; what correction?

4. compared to the ideal conditions of the garden.....
and the pending event of death
it would indeed appear as a fall
All of that is speculation on your part.

5. But Man was never intended to live forever physically
and that made the upgrade needful; again, speculation only.

6. they lived in sin after the garden....without God; there is no verse that specifically states they lived totally without God.

 

[blü 2]

You're too stubborn. No sense in continuing this discussion with you. Enjoy your day.

There IS no discussion to discontinue.

You refuse to look at your own text to see and understand what it actually says. Not till you do that can we have a reasoned discussion.

And you remain refusing. Not sure why, since it's your own book.

 

[Thief]

Your assumptions that are not in the text:

1. no names, no law, no garden.....and no God leading Him about; where is all of this in the text?

2. the garden event was an upgrade; upgrade from what?

3. after the correction the specimen was released into the environment; what correction?

4. compared to the ideal conditions of the garden.....
and the pending event of death
it would indeed appear as a fall
All of that is speculation on your part.

5. But Man was never intended to live forever physically
and that made the upgrade needful; again, speculation only.

6. they lived in sin after the garden....without God; there is no verse that specifically states they lived totally without God.

1.....Day Six
2....Day Six
3....Man's spiritual condition
4...perspective....not speculation
5...looking forward to death......was not common on Day Six
6....look around yourself