Religious Criticism Of Atheists. They're Too Selfish.

[SkepticThinker]

I'm getting the negative attributes from the Pew Research. Also, atheism leads to Communism. Atheism is more political and not what it appears to be. There's more, but I'm not sure how else to explain it because this is not all that there is nor all that there will be. Regular atheists would not see how diabolical atheism is.

You're just throwing claims all over the place with no substantiation whatsoever. When questioned, you just add more claims to the mix. It's baffling.

I could probably see how diabolical atheism is if you were able to demonstrate it in any way. I'm still waiting on that one.

 

[james bond]

I honestly have no idea what a 'devout atheist' is. I'm completely lacking in theism, and have been that way as long as I can clearly remember. Does that make me 'devout'? In any case, I was in a serious relationship with a practicing, and quite traditional Catholic. I wasn't sure of my now wife's beliefs when I started dating her, beyond her family having some cultural Christian trappings, but she wasn't particularly practicing. I learnt over time.
For me, I could care less on someone's religion. I care about how they treat people, and it's possible that their religion at least informs that. In particular, when choosing a wife, I am interested in how we would raise children. Other than that, why would I care?



White, 42, college educated. Which of those is supposed to be a negative trait? If it helps, I have a friend who's thinking of joining this site. He's also college educated, slightly older than me, but he has brown skin. Perhaps he's not really an atheist. You'd be pleased to know he was an actual Marxist at some point in his life, although he seems to be extremely conservative these days.

So, you fit the Pew Research for an atheist. So, would you marry a devout Christian woman?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

So, you fit the Pew Research for an atheist. So, would you marry a devout Christian woman?

You mighta missed the bit where I said 'For me, I could care less on someone's religion. I care about how they treat people, and it's possible that their religion at least informs that. In particular, when choosing a wife, I am interested in how we would raise children. Other than that, why would I care?'

So how does your hypothetical devout Christian woman want to raise our hypothetical little tackers? Let's start with names. Does she want to name our first born Leviticus? What about the rod? Does sparing it spoileth the child? Am I going to spend my life looking for unmixed fabrics?

 

[james bond]

You're just throwing claims all over the place with no substantiation whatsoever.

I've been discussing this for some time now. I have The Communist Manifesto and state atheism history. There are the quotes and books of Lenin, Stalin and the rest of the communists. Recently, we had news of the Communist Chinese destroying Christian or Catholic churches in China.

The communists will not hide. It's in their manifesto. They're out in the open about this.

Preamble
"A spectre is haunting Europe — the spectre of communism. All the powers of old Europe have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Pope and Tsar, Metternich and Guizot, French Radicals and German police-spies.

Where is the party in opposition that has not been decried as communistic by its opponents in power? Where is the opposition that has not hurled back the branding reproach of communism, against the more advanced opposition parties, as well as against its reactionary adversaries?

Two things result from this fact:

I. Communism is already acknowledged by all European powers to be itself a power.

II. It is high time that Communists should openly, in the face of the whole world, publish their views, their aims, their tendencies, and meet this nursery tale of the Spectre of Communism with a manifesto of the party itself.

To this end, Communists of various nationalities have assembled in London and sketched the following manifesto, to be published in the English, French, German, Italian, Flemish and Danish languages."

How atheism will be used
"This material, immediately perceptible private property is the material perceptible expression of estranged human life. Its movement – production and consumption – is the perceptible revelation of the movement of all production until now, i.e., the realisation or the reality of man. Religion, family, state, law, morality, science, art, etc., are only particular modes of production, and fall under its general law. The positive transcendence of private property as the appropriation of human life, is therefore the positive transcendence of all estrangement – that is to say, the return of man from religion, family, state, etc., to his human, i.e., social, existence. Religious estrangement as such occurs only in the realm of consciousness, of man’s inner life, but economic estrangement is that of real life; its transcendence therefore embraces both aspects. It is evident that the initial stage of the movement amongst the various peoples depends on whether the true recognised life of the people manifests itself more in consciousness or in the external world – is more ideal or real. Communism begins from the outset (Owen) with atheism; but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism is still mostly an abstraction."

Private Property and Communism, Marx, 1844

 

[james bond]

You mighta missed the bit where I said 'For me, I could care less on someone's religion. I care about how they treat people, and it's possible that their religion at least informs that. In particular, when choosing a wife, I am interested in how we would raise children. Other than that, why would I care?'

So how does your hypothetical devout Christian woman want to raise our hypothetical little tackers? Let's start with names. Does she want to name our first born Leviticus? What about the rod? Does sparing it spoileth the child? Am I going to spend my life looking for unmixed fabrics?

But do you really mean it? Have you thought it through?

It means your children will be raised Christian. You'll have to attend church. Some husbands/wives who are not strong in their religious beliefs just go for the social activities. Maybe, in some places, you'll have to put on a suit and tie to go to church.

 

[viole]

I've been discussing this for some time now. I have The Communist Manifesto and state atheism history. There are the quotes and books of Lenin, Stalin and the rest of the communists. Recently, we had news of the Communist Chinese destroying Christian or Catholic churches in China.

The communists will not hide. It's in their manifesto. They're out in the open about this.

Preamble
"A spectre is haunting Europe — the spectre of communism. All the powers of old Europe have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Pope and Tsar, Metternich and Guizot, French Radicals and German police-spies.

Where is the party in opposition that has not been decried as communistic by its opponents in power? Where is the opposition that has not hurled back the branding reproach of communism, against the more advanced opposition parties, as well as against its reactionary adversaries?

Two things result from this fact:

I. Communism is already acknowledged by all European powers to be itself a power.

II. It is high time that Communists should openly, in the face of the whole world, publish their views, their aims, their tendencies, and meet this nursery tale of the Spectre of Communism with a manifesto of the party itself.

To this end, Communists of various nationalities have assembled in London and sketched the following manifesto, to be published in the English, French, German, Italian, Flemish and Danish languages."

How atheism will be used
"This material, immediately perceptible private property is the material perceptible expression of estranged human life. Its movement – production and consumption – is the perceptible revelation of the movement of all production until now, i.e., the realisation or the reality of man. Religion, family, state, law, morality, science, art, etc., are only particular modes of production, and fall under its general law. The positive transcendence of private property as the appropriation of human life, is therefore the positive transcendence of all estrangement – that is to say, the return of man from religion, family, state, etc., to his human, i.e., social, existence. Religious estrangement as such occurs only in the realm of consciousness, of man’s inner life, but economic estrangement is that of real life; its transcendence therefore embraces both aspects. It is evident that the initial stage of the movement amongst the various peoples depends on whether the true recognised life of the people manifests itself more in consciousness or in the external world – is more ideal or real. Communism begins from the outset (Owen) with atheism; but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism is still mostly an abstraction."

Private Property and Communism, Marx, 1844

Don't you see how obvious your fallacy is? If communism entails atheism, that does not lead to atheism entailing communism.

Communists also wanted to be the first in space. Does that entail that capitalism is defined by wanting to be the second?

Ciao

- viole

 

[lewisnotmiller]

But do you really mean it? Have you thought it through?

It means your children will be raised Christian. You'll have to attend church. Some husbands/wives who are not strong in their religious beliefs just go for the social activities. Maybe, in some places, you'll have to put on a suit and tie to go to church.

I do wonder if you're reading my posts at all. But in the interests of 'research', I'll extrapolate for you. Please take the time to consider my answers in good faith.

I don't care if my wife is Christian. I would assume I am marrying her due to her sense of humour, zest for life and her independence. Why would I demand this led her to the same world view as me?

However I'd like the same consideration. Otherwise I'm unsure why I'm marrying her. So no, I'm not going to church.

Kids are most likely a sticking point. I'm not a fan of brainwashing. My kids don't have much of a concept of Christianity, but I guess they know more about it than they know about atheism.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I am an atheist. I am a mixed economist with no desire for communism, I don't do recreational drugs (other than the occasional coffee or chocolate), I am pro-choice but so is a significant portion of religious people, I don't buy more than your average family and I do food bank and animal rescue related charity, and I take more photos of non-human animals than myself. But my best friend, who is Presbytarian, takes a huge number of selfies.

So maybe lay off the generalizations?

Let me get this straight. You rescue animals, and then exploit them in photo sessions without written consent? I bet they're stripped naked, right?

Typical atheist behavior.

 

[james bond]

I do wonder if you're reading my posts at all. But in the interests of 'research', I'll extrapolate for you. Please take the time to consider my answers in good faith.

I don't care if my wife is Christian. I would assume I am marrying her due to her sense of humour, zest for life and her independence. Why would I demand this led her to the same world view as me?

However I'd like the same consideration. Otherwise I'm unsure why I'm marrying her. So no, I'm not going to church.

Kids are most likely a sticking point. I'm not a fan of brainwashing. My kids don't have much of a concept of Christianity, but I guess they know more about it than they know about atheism.

Yes, I am reading your posts and tried to clarify your position with my previous post. What you propose does not sound rational. How can you say I won't be going to church? This is your devout Christian wife we are talking about. Church is part of her social organization. I've known strong men (both physically and/or intellectually) who go to church because of their wives. They go because of her. However, I don't know if they were atheist. They seemed to be ones who wouldn't go if they were by themselves, but I'm not sure. It's not like I would know unless they brought it up.

You dismiss what she wants with a you have to respect my views statement. Next, you say kids are a sticking point. Those are two big strikes against you in a marriage like this. Many will not get past the dating stage. We have people who use religion as a dating preference. I've seen Christian or other religion as a key trait. I have not seen someone state atheist though. All this means realistically you won't be marrying a Christian. Chances are good that you won't. What we have usually is a non-negotiable situation.

Furthermore, you treat religion like it was brainwashing. Isn't that just convenience on your part? You have got to get over this thinking if you want to continue this relationship. It's not brainwashing, but religion, faith and believing in God.

I know of no couple that one is Christian and the other is atheist, but like I said I don't know if the husband/wife was atheist. I would not know if a woman I was dating was an atheist unless she told me. That would probably end the dating.

The example I used was Roger Ebert and his wife. He lived in SF at the time. I think he went with her to church. They didn't have children, but you could tell that their differences was a part of their lives they had to make an effort to manage. Just read this review of The Tree of Life by Ebert. The Tree of Life is a Christian movie about one family who try to be good, but their fortunes do not turn out this way. The father becomes an overbearing bully to his children and his wife. It stars Brad Pitt, Sean Penn and Jessica Chastain. It's shot in beautiful natural cinematography and with an unconventional narrative. The structure of the narrative may turn viewers off because it's not the conventional form. I think it adds to the whole experience. It's a beautiful movie.

The Tree of Life Movie Review (2011) | Roger Ebert

Also, he talks about his background and what he believed before he died. Otherwise, I have nothing as an example to show you, but just well, me bucko, your relationship isn't going to work.

"I consider myself Catholic, lock, stock and barrel, with this technical loophole: I cannot believe in God."
How I am a Roman Catholic | Roger Ebert's Journal | Roger Ebert

How I believe in God | Roger Ebert's Journal | Roger Ebert

 

[james bond]

Don't you see how obvious your fallacy is? If communism entails atheism, that does not lead to atheism entailing communism.

Communists also wanted to be the first in space. Does that entail that capitalism is defined by wanting to be the second?

Ciao

- viole

Why would Marx entail atheism if you were good with his communism? It's the other way around. The communists or extreme socialists (like Bernie Sanders) are on the liberal side and atheist.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Yes, I am reading your posts and tried to clarify your position with my previous post.

Cool. That being the case, I'm more than happy to take it slow and answer whatever questions, etc, you have.

What you propose does not sound rational. How can you say I won't be going to church? This is your devout Christian wife we are talking about. Church is part of her social organization.

I think we're talking past each other a little. It's hard for me to discuss my hypothetical wife without knowing why I am actually with this woman. What is it about her that has attracted me to her?
Best I can do is some generalizing without that, and to remind you that this only applies to how I approach life, not to how atheists collectively do so.

1) To me, marriage involves implicit trust in the other person. I do not marry someone wanting to fundamentally change them, else why do I love them? I need to accept the whole person...or not. That means I need to accept that my devout Christian wife is going to go to Church, believe in God, pray, etc. She needs to accept that I don't. If neither of us can accept the other, then we shouldn't be together.

I've known strong men (both physically and/or intellectually) who go to church because of their wives. They go because of her. However, I don't know if they were atheist. They seemed to be ones who wouldn't go if they were by themselves, but I'm not sure. It's not like I would know unless they brought it up.

As I said, I can speak only for myself. I have no issue with attending church when there is a reason to do so. The best man at my wedding became a born-again Christian. Personally, I disagree with his position, as you might expect. And I don't believe his particular brand of Christianity is healthy. When he asked me to attend, he was well aware of this, but wanted me there so he'd know he wasn't going to lose our friendship over his choice. I told him (similar to what I am telling you) that our friendship isn't based on belief in God (heck, he was a Catholic anyway), but rather how he treated people. And since I could see why he wanted me there,since it was important to him, I went. Basically, I would need to understand the reason. Hope of converting me, for example, is not a reason. It costs me, in a way, to attend church. It's not something I do lightly, to be honest.
Similarly, I've turned down every request to become a godparent, not because it has the word 'god' in it, but because of the vows to renounce Satan and help raise the child a Christian. I don't make a vow I'm not intending to keep, and I think that to do so would belittle the religion.

And I attend the church as an atheist. I don't pray, or sing hymns, for example. I am okay with standing/sitting as requested, etc, so as to not cause any disruptions given that I am in a place of worship. Perhaps similar to how you would act in a synogogue (just guessing, obviously I don't know).

You dismiss what she wants with a you have to respect my views statement.

This is fundamental to this whole argument, I think. You're okay with her dismissing my worldview, right? Why? I don't mean that in a 'stamp my foot and say why me' sense. I am honestly interested. I think you're working from a position of placing value on a religious lifestyle and seeing atheism as merely avoidance of that religious lifestyle for reasons of convenience. It can be that, I would say, but it's certainly not in my case. She can disagree with me on whatever she wants, but if we are getting married, I would hope she would respect my ability to form coherent views, and to honour them through my actions. Transparency and authenticity are fundamental to a marriage, and to act as not myself appears to indicate a weakness in our marriage.

What you propose does not sound rational. How can you say I won't be going to church? This is your devout Christian wife we are talking about. Church is part of her social organization.

I think we're talking past each other a little. It's hard for me to discuss my hypothetical wife without knowing why I am actually with this woman. What is it about her that has attracted me to her? So what you are seeing as a lack of rationality is simply me trying to define who this woman is, and where my personal lines would be.
Best I can do is some generalizing without that, and to remind you that this only applies to how I approach life, not to how atheists collectively do so.

To me, marriage involves implicit trust in the other person. I do not marry someone wanting to fundamentally change them, else why do I love them? I need to accept the whole person...or not. That means I need to accept that my devout Christian wife is going to go to Church, believe in God, pray, etc. She needs to accept that I don't. If neither of us can accept the other, then we shouldn't be together.

I've known strong men (both physically and/or intellectually) who go to church because of their wives. They go because of her. However, I don't know if they were atheist. They seemed to be ones who wouldn't go if they were by themselves, but I'm not sure. It's not like I would know unless they brought it up.

As I said, I can speak only for myself. I have no issue with attending church when there is a reason to do so. The best man at my wedding became a born-again Christian. Personally, I disagree with his position, as you might expect. And I don't believe his particular brand of Christianity is healthy. When he asked me to attend, he was well aware of this, but wanted me there so he'd know he wasn't going to lose our friendship over his choice. I told him (similar to what I am telling you) that our friendship isn't based on belief in God (heck, he was a Catholic anyway), but rather how he treated people. And since I could see why he wanted me there,since it was important to him, I went. Basically, I would need to understand the reason. Hope of converting me, for example, is not a reason. It costs me, in a way, to attend church. It's not something I do lightly, to be honest.
Similarly, I've turned down every request to become a godparent, not because it has the word 'god' in it, but because of the vows to renounce Satan and help raise the child a Christian. I don't make a vow I'm not intending to keep, and I think that to do so would belittle the religion.

And I attend the church as an atheist. I don't pray, or sing hymns, for example. I am okay with standing/sitting as requested, etc, so as to not cause any disruptions given that I am in a place of worship. Perhaps similar to how you would act in a synogogue (just guessing, obviously I don't know).

Next, you say kids are a sticking point. Those are two big strikes against you in a marriage like this.

You're still working from a 'religion is good, atheism is not' position when you say 'that's two big strikes against you in a marriage like this'.
I'm well aware kids are a big sticking point, hence why I raised it. I'm not interested in trying to convince you atheist/devout Christian marriage is likely. It's not. To me, most things in this sort of mixed marriage could be negotiated through. Kids are far more difficult, though, and in a practical sense they would often be the deal-breaker.
Incidentally, for the devout Catholic I was dating, the sticking point wasn't kids, but whether I would be allowed to be married in a Catholic Church. The assumption inherent in that were more troubling to me than the actual point she'd made. We weren't compatible, and religion was a big part, although there were other issues, from my point of view.

So I find it unlikely that I would be with a devoutly Christian woman. But that's not because she's Christian. It's because she would probably expect me to at least become culturally Christian. And she would be even more likely to expect the kids to be raised in her faith. But her Christianity, in and of itself, doesn't cause me much issue. My atheism would probably be an issue for her, I guess.

<too long - continued next post> (Sorry!!!! Lots to cover)

 

[lewisnotmiller]

<cont- from above>

Many will not get past the dating stage. We have people who use religion as a dating preference. I've seen Christian or other religion as a key trait. I have not seen someone state atheist though. All this means realistically you won't be marrying a Christian. Chances are good that you won't. What we have usually is a non-negotiable situation.

Meh, preferences are one thing. I can prefer blondes, intellectuals, or older women, and then find myself madly in love with a young brunette with learning difficulties. It happens. Religious compatability is far easier to deal with than religious incompatability, you'll get no argument from me on that. But would I potentially marry a devout Christian? Yes.

Furthermore, you treat religion like it was brainwashing. Isn't that just convenience on your part? You have got to get over this thinking if you want to continue this relationship. It's not brainwashing, but religion, faith and believing in God.

Quite a few of my best friends are Christians. That's fine. I neither pretend to be something I am not, nor disrespect their religions. It is then up to them how much stock they want to put into my atheism. I'll continue to act like me, and assume there is something inherent in me that my wife-to-be loves and respects, or alternatively that we are not compatible.

I know of no couple that one is Christian and the other is atheist, but like I said I don't know if the husband/wife was atheist. I would not know if a woman I was dating was an atheist unless she told me. That would probably end the dating.

I do, but they're an interesting couple. He is mostly apathetic towards religion, and is okay with her teaching their sons Christianity, but expressing his opinion that it's a pile of crap. He can't push that too far, since he's by no means a student of religion, and he's basically ignorant. Religion is largely not an issue for their relationship, but personally I wouldn't see their approach as good. It lacks transparency and honesty. They are dealing with the question by avoiding it. Having said that, they have a successful marriage by most measures, and have raised 2 boys who (so far at least) are pretty nice kids.

I read the last paragraph too, but I'm unfamiliar with the movie you mentioned, and (honestly) not up for investing time in it. Not because it's unworthy, or whatever, but no matter how good the movie, it wouldn't sway me either way. For the most part, I think we agree on this, to be honest, but the small difference is really important, so I'll close by re-iterating it, hopefully clearly;

1) It's extraordinarily unlikely I would marry a devout Christian. There are too many practical differences, particularly around child-rearing. But I don't do illegal drugs, I am monogomous to a fault, and I have plenty of Christian friends, so leaving a few key things like religion, belief, and church attendance out, it's not impossible to envisage a compatible lifestyle.

2) I don't care if she's Christian. If I'm considering marrying her, I'm looking at how she treats people, both me and others.

3) Considering she's devout, her Christianity no doubt influences her actions. Those actions could be dealbreakers. If she thinks homosexuals should burn in hell, we're not going to connect. But I'm not going to prejudge a person because they are Christian, Muslim, or whatever else. I'll be myself. And if that is incompatible, the relationship will fail in short order (as mine did with the devout Catholic). it will not neccessarily fail though, since I don't care if she's Christian. I actually find religious discussions interesting, and I'm pretty well read. She could even borrow my books on Christian history if she likes.

4) She might care that I'm an atheist. In my estimation, it's her approach to my non-religion that would be the most likely deal-breaker here. And (as mentioned) our approach to rearing kids.

 

[james bond]

Cool. That being the case, I'm more than happy to take it slow and answer whatever questions, etc, you have.



I think we're talking past each other a little. It's hard for me to discuss my hypothetical wife without knowing why I am actually with this woman. What is it about her that has attracted me to her?
Best I can do is some generalizing without that, and to remind you that this only applies to how I approach life, not to how atheists collectively do so.

1) To me, marriage involves implicit trust in the other person. I do not marry someone wanting to fundamentally change them, else why do I love them? I need to accept the whole person...or not. That means I need to accept that my devout Christian wife is going to go to Church, believe in God, pray, etc. She needs to accept that I don't. If neither of us can accept the other, then we shouldn't be together.



As I said, I can speak only for myself. I have no issue with attending church when there is a reason to do so. The best man at my wedding became a born-again Christian. Personally, I disagree with his position, as you might expect. And I don't believe his particular brand of Christianity is healthy. When he asked me to attend, he was well aware of this, but wanted me there so he'd know he wasn't going to lose our friendship over his choice. I told him (similar to what I am telling you) that our friendship isn't based on belief in God (heck, he was a Catholic anyway), but rather how he treated people. And since I could see why he wanted me there,since it was important to him, I went. Basically, I would need to understand the reason. Hope of converting me, for example, is not a reason. It costs me, in a way, to attend church. It's not something I do lightly, to be honest.
Similarly, I've turned down every request to become a godparent, not because it has the word 'god' in it, but because of the vows to renounce Satan and help raise the child a Christian. I don't make a vow I'm not intending to keep, and I think that to do so would belittle the religion.

And I attend the church as an atheist. I don't pray, or sing hymns, for example. I am okay with standing/sitting as requested, etc, so as to not cause any disruptions given that I am in a place of worship. Perhaps similar to how you would act in a synogogue (just guessing, obviously I don't know).



This is fundamental to this whole argument, I think. You're okay with her dismissing my worldview, right? Why? I don't mean that in a 'stamp my foot and say why me' sense. I am honestly interested. I think you're working from a position of placing value on a religious lifestyle and seeing atheism as merely avoidance of that religious lifestyle for reasons of convenience. It can be that, I would say, but it's certainly not in my case. She can disagree with me on whatever she wants, but if we are getting married, I would hope she would respect my ability to form coherent views, and to honour them through my actions. Transparency and authenticity are fundamental to a marriage, and to act as not myself appears to indicate a weakness in our marriage.



I think we're talking past each other a little. It's hard for me to discuss my hypothetical wife without knowing why I am actually with this woman. What is it about her that has attracted me to her? So what you are seeing as a lack of rationality is simply me trying to define who this woman is, and where my personal lines would be.
Best I can do is some generalizing without that, and to remind you that this only applies to how I approach life, not to how atheists collectively do so.

To me, marriage involves implicit trust in the other person. I do not marry someone wanting to fundamentally change them, else why do I love them? I need to accept the whole person...or not. That means I need to accept that my devout Christian wife is going to go to Church, believe in God, pray, etc. She needs to accept that I don't. If neither of us can accept the other, then we shouldn't be together.



As I said, I can speak only for myself. I have no issue with attending church when there is a reason to do so. The best man at my wedding became a born-again Christian. Personally, I disagree with his position, as you might expect. And I don't believe his particular brand of Christianity is healthy. When he asked me to attend, he was well aware of this, but wanted me there so he'd know he wasn't going to lose our friendship over his choice. I told him (similar to what I am telling you) that our friendship isn't based on belief in God (heck, he was a Catholic anyway), but rather how he treated people. And since I could see why he wanted me there,since it was important to him, I went. Basically, I would need to understand the reason. Hope of converting me, for example, is not a reason. It costs me, in a way, to attend church. It's not something I do lightly, to be honest.
Similarly, I've turned down every request to become a godparent, not because it has the word 'god' in it, but because of the vows to renounce Satan and help raise the child a Christian. I don't make a vow I'm not intending to keep, and I think that to do so would belittle the religion.

And I attend the church as an atheist. I don't pray, or sing hymns, for example. I am okay with standing/sitting as requested, etc, so as to not cause any disruptions given that I am in a place of worship. Perhaps similar to how you would act in a synogogue (just guessing, obviously I don't know).


You're still working from a 'religion is good, atheism is not' position when you say 'that's two big strikes against you in a marriage like this'.
I'm well aware kids are a big sticking point, hence why I raised it. I'm not interested in trying to convince you atheist/devout Christian marriage is likely. It's not. To me, most things in this sort of mixed marriage could be negotiated through. Kids are far more difficult, though, and in a practical sense they would often be the deal-breaker.
Incidentally, for the devout Catholic I was dating, the sticking point wasn't kids, but whether I would be allowed to be married in a Catholic Church. The assumption inherent in that were more troubling to me than the actual point she'd made. We weren't compatible, and religion was a big part, although there were other issues, from my point of view.

So I find it unlikely that I would be with a devoutly Christian woman. But that's not because she's Christian. It's because she would probably expect me to at least become culturally Christian. And she would be even more likely to expect the kids to be raised in her faith. But her Christianity, in and of itself, doesn't cause me much issue. My atheism would probably be an issue for her, I guess.

<too long - continued next post> (Sorry!!!! Lots to cover)

>>So I find it unlikely that I would be with a devoutly Christian woman. But that's not because she's Christian. It's because she would probably expect me to at least become culturally Christian. And she would be even more likely to expect the kids to be raised in her faith. But her Christianity, in and of itself, doesn't cause me much issue. My atheism would probably be an issue for her, I guess.<<

My take is you are a strong atheist. I'm basing it on your responses and the way I think about this. Ask other people what they think about your views. Maybe there is a slim chance that you'll meet a Christian woman that you'll be attracted to, but the chances are you won't. Maybe they're Christian, but not a strong Christian. The thought experiment is to get you to think about the issues involved.

>>To me, most things in this sort of mixed marriage could be negotiated through.<<

I agree to an extent. I can accept working out differences of how to raise children. In the The Tree of Life movie, I wasn't against Brad Pitt's character being an authoritarian or being strict with his children. Where he crossed the line was being a bully to them even though you know deep down that he loves his children. He was also a bully to his wife. It affected the whole family. Negotiating difficult circumstances is easier said than done and I would think you being forced to go to church or play the religion part would crop up somewhere. Few people can accept what they do not believe. If you weren't such a strong atheist, then it may be different. The men I've met didn't have strong feelings of being made to go to church. They found positive things to accept the religion and they all changed for the better. They even had testimonies to this effect. I think all are willing to become baptized, but it's just a feeling. I don't think they have another faith but maybe they do.

Your first and second paragraphs shows you're a strong atheist imo. Clearly, you were bothered with your best friend and being asked to become a godparent. But then you stated you would be against her not because she's Christian, but she expects you to become culturally Christian. I assume the relationship would be quid pro quo. In other words, you'd have to get something else in return such as not give up your atheism. Isn't it better to find someone who shares your beliefs and worldview instead of going for someone who has the polar opposite view?

>>Incidentally, for the devout Catholic I was dating, the sticking point wasn't kids, but whether I would be allowed to be married in a Catholic Church. The assumption inherent in that were more troubling to me than the actual point she'd made. We weren't compatible, and religion was a big part, although there were other issues, from my point of view.<<

So, she was okay with raising the kids not being baptized? And the pastor would not allow you to be married in their church? Usually, there are written rules for this nationally and by the church. I think your experience backs up my view that your worldviews would be difficult to negotiate. Wouldn't it be easier to be with someone who shares your views?

That's the approach I take now. Before, I wasn't such a strong Christian, but now would favor a Christian woman. I would pass if I found out a woman who was a strong atheist. Ok for an agnostic or weak atheist, but it does make it more difficult. Right now, I've been okay with being with a Buddhist woman who believes in a Christian God. I think she's a strong Buddhist, but not that strong Christian but is leaning that way. I left my previous church because they would not marry me because I was divorced. However, I think their policies have changed since 2015. The national policy has been changed to allow divorced people to re-marry. I think they still recommend both be Christian, but support and accept interfaith marriages. I'm not sure just reading the stuff below. There's a lot that's not said though and it means having counseling. They've eased up on same-sex marriages, too, but most still would not allow the ceremony even though gays can be members. I think the relationship has cooled off a bit since I've met a Christian woman. We have a connection that I didn't have. I think my gf is okay with going to two churches once I find a church to go to, but it will be more difficult than is now.

I do: How United Methodists understand Christian marriage - The United Methodist Church

 

[lewisnotmiller]

My take is you are a strong atheist. I'm basing it on your responses and the way I think about this.

Hmm...I'm definitely not a strong atheist, by the normal definition. I'm a weak atheist, also known as an agnostic atheist. However, I think you mean more that I am strong/firm in my existing beliefs. That is pretty accurate and fair.

Ask other people what they think about your views. Maybe there is a slim chance that you'll meet a Christian woman that you'll be attracted to, but the chances are you won't.

I've been with my wife for almost 22 years (I'm 42 years old) so attraction to anyone is not something I seek. But in my past I dated a devout Catholic (as mentioned) and was seriously attracted to another girl who was very devout (Assembly of God). In terms of attraction (not just physical, but the whole deal) religion is a non-factor for me.

Maybe they're Christian, but not a strong Christian. The thought experiment is to get you to think about the issues involved.

You only have my word for it, but both girls were very devout. Religion simply isn't a deal breaker for me. But I think we largely agree in a practical sense anyway, since I completely agree that a devout Christian and an atheist are likely to have a lot of issues, and are unlikely to stay together permanently.

Negotiating difficult circumstances is easier said than done and I would think you being forced to go to church or play the religion part would crop up somewhere.

It would probably crop up a lot. But no one can force me to go to church, nor play the religion part. Happily, even married, I get to keep the courage of my convictions.

Few people can accept what they do not believe. If you weren't such a strong atheist, then it may be different. The men I've met didn't have strong feelings of being made to go to church. They found positive things to accept the religion and they all changed for the better. They even had testimonies to this effect. I think all are willing to become baptized, but it's just a feeling. I don't think they have another faith but maybe they do.

Religion isn't good or bad in my view. It can be either, depending on it's nature and who is involved, so I won't judge the people you are mentioning. I will say that I only make vows and promises I honestly believe, and I keep them. Writing wedding vows would be an interesting exercise if I married a devout Christian!!
In terms of baptism, for me that would be an outright lie, and disrespectful of the religion. If baptism means anything, people shouldn't be doing it to please their wife, or get their kids into the 'right' school, imho.

Your first and second paragraphs shows you're a strong atheist imo. Clearly, you were bothered with your best friend and being asked to become a godparent.

I was extremely flattered. It's happened three times, and in each case I was extremely flattered. People are saying they trust you with their children if they are not around. How could that not be flattering?

But I won't stand up and make vows I don't mean. That includes things like renouncing Satan. Or saying prayers. I have promised my closest friends that I'd raise their boys if anything happened, and that I'd take them to church until they're old enough to make their own choices.

But then you stated you would be against her not because she's Christian, but she expects you to become culturally Christian. I assume the relationship would be quid pro quo. In other words, you'd have to get something else in return such as not give up your atheism.

Kind of, yes. Put it this way...take a devout Christian out of the Church and they still believe. Put me in Church, I'm still an atheist. So 'giving up' atheism is not an option. Living in an inauthentic way, going through the motions of church attendance, pretending...that seems like a horrible half-life.

Isn't it better to find someone who shares your beliefs and worldview instead of going for someone who has the polar opposite view?

Yep. Just remember, whilst our beliefs about God would be different, it's quite likely a lot of our worldviews would be completely compatible.
The religion thing is obviously large, and hence (hypothetically) it would be unlikely I'd have a successful marriage, or even desire to marry, a devout Christian.

But their Christianity isn't a deal breaker for me.

Make sense?

So, she was okay with raising the kids not being baptized?

I doubt it, but we didn't get that far. To me, even talk of marriage was premature, but I get it from her point of view.

And the pastor would not allow you to be married in their church? Usually, there are written rules for this nationally and by the church. I think your experience backs up my view that your worldviews would be difficult to negotiate. Wouldn't it be easier to be with someone who shares your views?

Definitely easier to be with someone who shares my views. Having said that, we're all unique. I could easily be with a mildly religious person. Devout is very unlikely for practical reasons, and let's face it, many would think I'm destined for hell anyway, so perhaps my atheism is a deal breaker for them. If so, it's all for the best anyway.

That's the approach I take now. Before, I wasn't such a strong Christian, but now would favor a Christian woman. I would pass if I found out a woman who was a strong atheist. Ok for an agnostic or weak atheist, but it does make it more difficult.

I totally understand.
You might be best to just lay out your terms and let the chips fall. For example, I'd completely respect a woman who said to me she could only be with me if I went to church, raised our kids Christian, and let them think I was Christian. But I'd shake her hand and walk the other way. Better for both of us, and for the kids.
What I couldn't respect is someone who married me and then set those sort of conditions.

Sidenote...I mentioned earlier, but 'weak atheists' aren't 'less vocal atheists'. I'm a weak atheist. I don't think it's possible to prove there is no God. But I'm practically certain there is no Christian God, so I doubt a weak atheist would work for you.

Right now, I've been okay with being with a Buddhist woman who believes in a Christian God. I think she's a strong Buddhist, but not that strong Christian but is leaning that way. I left my previous church because they would not marry me because I was divorced. However, I think their policies have changed since 2015. The national policy has been changed to allow divorced people to re-marry. I think they still recommend both be Christian, but support and accept interfaith marriages. I'm not sure just reading the stuff below. There's a lot that's not said though and it means having counseling. They've eased up on same-sex marriages, too, but most still would not allow the ceremony even though gays can be members. I think the relationship has cooled off a bit since I've met a Christian woman. We have a connection that I didn't have. I think my gf is okay with going to two churches once I find a church to go to, but it will be more difficult than is now.

I do: How United Methodists understand Christian marriage - The United Methodist Church

I wish you both good luck! Relationship s are hard work, but hopefully support you both in your personal growth.

 

[Milton Platt]

Pew Research Center says,

"Last week, the Pew Research Center released the results of a new survey concerning who Americans would want – or rather, wouldn’t want – for an in-law. While about 10 percent of Americans said they’d be unhappy if a family member married someone of a different political persuasion, and about 30 percent of Americans said they’d be unhappy if a family member married a gun owner, nearly 50 percent of Americans said that they’d be unhappy if a family member married an atheist."

Why Americans Hate Atheists

Heh. Hating is not good for the soul, so it's probably hate the sin and not the sinner.

But sometimes as in the case of marriage, one can't easily separate the two.

Anyway, it got me thinking what criticisms are valid of atheists (besides leading to being Communists). I didn't want to use the #1 popular answer, the i-word -- IMMORAL. I would say they are selfish. There's the immorality, but I think that's a bit harder to quantify.

Atheism does not lead to any particular ideology. It might favor humanism, but that is not a component of atheism.

For example, abortion. Those in favor are focusing on their own lives instead of the baby's life. Drugs. It's not to treat one's pain and suffering or a medical condition, but to get one to a pleasant, happy state or state of euphoria. Materialsim. People want to buy, buy, buy and the pleasure in buying is only temporary. And more.

You are making unfounded assertions about what people are "focusing" on.
Materialism is the belief (?) that the material world is all that exists. It has nothing to do with shopping habits.

So how can I quantify selfishness? How about selfies? I'm not saying it's just the atheists who take selfies, as we all do it to some degree. Are the atheists more self-absorbed and into taking more selfies?

Who knows, who cares, and what is the relevance to anything? I would think younger demographics take more selfies than older demographics. But so what???

What about those who want to take just the right selfie or take a lot of selfies so they can post on social media? I can only guess what possesses these people to take the "perfect" selfie and in the process get killed over it. Are these people atheist? Do atheists have more selfish traits than the religious?

Who knows and why does it matter?

Here's a recent one. Drunk, too. Probably not the last either.

So a drunk man did something stupid. First time that has ever happened, right????

Man taking selfie on Germany autobahn killed after getting hit by car
Man taking selfie on Germany autobahn killed after getting hit by car

 

[viole]

Why would Marx entail atheism if you were good with his communism? It's the other way around. The communists or extreme socialists (like Bernie Sanders) are on the liberal side and atheist.

Extreme socialism entails also taking from the very rich and redistribute to the less rich.

What about the reverse inference? Does that kind of policy entail extreme socialism?

Ciao

- viole

 

[james bond]

Hmm...I'm definitely not a strong atheist, by the normal definition. I'm a weak atheist, also known as an agnostic atheist. However, I think you mean more that I am strong/firm in my existing beliefs. That is pretty accurate and fair.



I've been with my wife for almost 22 years (I'm 42 years old) so attraction to anyone is not something I seek. But in my past I dated a devout Catholic (as mentioned) and was seriously attracted to another girl who was very devout (Assembly of God). In terms of attraction (not just physical, but the whole deal) religion is a non-factor for me.



You only have my word for it, but both girls were very devout. Religion simply isn't a deal breaker for me. But I think we largely agree in a practical sense anyway, since I completely agree that a devout Christian and an atheist are likely to have a lot of issues, and are unlikely to stay together permanently.




It would probably crop up a lot. But no one can force me to go to church, nor play the religion part. Happily, even married, I get to keep the courage of my convictions.




Religion isn't good or bad in my view. It can be either, depending on it's nature and who is involved, so I won't judge the people you are mentioning. I will say that I only make vows and promises I honestly believe, and I keep them. Writing wedding vows would be an interesting exercise if I married a devout Christian!!
In terms of baptism, for me that would be an outright lie, and disrespectful of the religion. If baptism means anything, people shouldn't be doing it to please their wife, or get their kids into the 'right' school, imho.




I was extremely flattered. It's happened three times, and in each case I was extremely flattered. People are saying they trust you with their children if they are not around. How could that not be flattering?

But I won't stand up and make vows I don't mean. That includes things like renouncing Satan. Or saying prayers. I have promised my closest friends that I'd raise their boys if anything happened, and that I'd take them to church until they're old enough to make their own choices.




Kind of, yes. Put it this way...take a devout Christian out of the Church and they still believe. Put me in Church, I'm still an atheist. So 'giving up' atheism is not an option. Living in an inauthentic way, going through the motions of church attendance, pretending...that seems like a horrible half-life.




Yep. Just remember, whilst our beliefs about God would be different, it's quite likely a lot of our worldviews would be completely compatible.
The religion thing is obviously large, and hence (hypothetically) it would be unlikely I'd have a successful marriage, or even desire to marry, a devout Christian.

But their Christianity isn't a deal breaker for me.

Make sense?



I doubt it, but we didn't get that far. To me, even talk of marriage was premature, but I get it from her point of view.




Definitely easier to be with someone who shares my views. Having said that, we're all unique. I could easily be with a mildly religious person. Devout is very unlikely for practical reasons, and let's face it, many would think I'm destined for hell anyway, so perhaps my atheism is a deal breaker for them. If so, it's all for the best anyway.




I totally understand.
You might be best to just lay out your terms and let the chips fall. For example, I'd completely respect a woman who said to me she could only be with me if I went to church, raised our kids Christian, and let them think I was Christian. But I'd shake her hand and walk the other way. Better for both of us, and for the kids.
What I couldn't respect is someone who married me and then set those sort of conditions.

Sidenote...I mentioned earlier, but 'weak atheists' aren't 'less vocal atheists'. I'm a weak atheist. I don't think it's possible to prove there is no God. But I'm practically certain there is no Christian God, so I doubt a weak atheist would work for you.




I wish you both good luck! Relationship s are hard work, but hopefully support you both in your personal growth.

>>Hmm...I'm definitely not a strong atheist, by the normal definition. I'm a weak atheist, also known as an agnostic atheist. However, I think you mean more that I am strong/firm in my existing beliefs. That is pretty accurate and fair.<<

Gotcha.

>>I've been with my wife for almost 22 years (I'm 42 years old) so attraction to anyone is not something I seek.<<

I'm curious since we've been discussing this. Is she a non-believer, too? I'm not saying it can't work out if she is a believer, but there would be its own problems to negotiate.

>>Religion isn't good or bad in my view. It can be either, depending on it's nature and who is involved, so I won't judge the people you are mentioning.<<

I try not to judge unless I'm forced to such as being selected a juror or having to hire someone. Choosing a mate? Getting married? That's not as easy ha ha.

>>You might be best to just lay out your terms and let the chips fall. For example, I'd completely respect a woman who said to me she could only be with me if I went to church, raised our kids Christian, and let them think I was Christian. But I'd shake her hand and walk the other way. Better for both of us, and for the kids.
What I couldn't respect is someone who married me and then set those sort of conditions.<<

One of the things I've learned is the hardest thing in a relationship is honesty. It's easier to talk to a stranger about your problems than someone who knows you. With people who know you, they take sides or do not understand what you mean. There's prejudgment involved. Things or words get in the way. In your example, what if she didn't say that, i.e. wasn't that honest? Would you tell her that you do not believe and that you're just going through the motions because of her? And if there were children, what if she agreed that it will be up to them to become baptized. However, they will be exposed to Christianity and grow up as such. Are you going to tell them about atheism and your beliefs?

In my case, I'll have to sort things out and figure out what's important. I like the incense burning and chanting in her church. However, the bowing and respect is similar to that of making the Buddah or human a deity. That part is strange. However, I do believe that one can reach a state of consciousness that is beyond pain and suffering, or beyond the physical body. The pastor seems to dwell on this imo. He doesn't explain it this way, but through different levels of consciousness. We live in different levels of consciousness at every moment. Most understand just the physical. Or maybe I'm just more interested in the higher levels part. Obviously, this is a spiritual state and not a physical one. He is focusing on the mind and not the brain to reach a different (higher?) level of consciousness. Thus, Buddhism may be an atheist religion, it still focuses on the spiritual part. The physical is a lower level of consciousness.

 

[james bond]

Extreme socialism entails also taking from the very rich and redistribute to the less rich.

What about the reverse inference? Does that kind of policy entail extreme socialism?

Ciao

- viole

The Bernie Sanders type would be leading us to Communism. He's a good example. Then, we just had one of his followers try and kill a conservative congressman and was against Republicans.

>>What about the reverse inference?<<

I suppose you mean does extreme socialism lead to atheism? I would think in most cases, it has been atheism leading to the extreme socialism. I used Sanders (not really a practicing Jew) as an example of this, but is there anyone else? Who's an example of the socialism leading to atheism? Hillary Clinton? Nancy Pelosi? Harry Reid? None claim atheism, so it's not easy to determine.

What about your case? Do you not believe in God because of your socialist beliefs? Or that it's because of associating with other socialists in the liberal party, i.e. peer influence? Doesn't that make one's beliefs more shallow?

 

[metis]

The Bernie Sanders type would be leading us to Communism.

You don't seem to understand what "socialism" is because there are various forms and Bernie simply is not a believer in Communism. Maybe google him instead of spouting such nonsense.

Then, we just had one of his followers try and kill a conservative congressman and was against Republicans.

What a disgustingly dishonest response this is because there is no way for any politician to control the actions of everyone who might work or do volunteer work for them. According to his wife, the man had some severe issues as well as a history of violence.

 

[viole]

The Bernie Sanders type would be leading us to Communism. He's a good example. Then, we just had one of his followers try and kill a conservative congressman and was against Republicans.

>>What about the reverse inference?<<

I suppose you mean does extreme socialism lead to atheism? I would think in most cases, it has been atheism leading to the extreme socialism. I used Sanders (not really a practicing Jew) as an example of this, but is there anyone else? Who's an example of the socialism leading to atheism? Hillary Clinton? Nancy Pelosi? Harry Reid? None claim atheism, so it's not easy to determine.

What about your case? Do you not believe in God because of your socialist beliefs? Or that it's because of associating with other socialists in the liberal party, i.e. peer influence? Doesn't that make one's beliefs more shallow?

I don't believe in God because I don't believe in Mother Goose (C. Darrow). And for the same reason, I do not believe in Apollo, Allah, Ganesh, or whichever of the thousands Gods people believed in the centuries that share the same exact amount of evidence. Zero.

My political views are completely irrelevant. They did not change a lot since I was a Christian. And i told you, I am a conservative. Even more that before, since I thought Jesus was not a big fan of rich people.

Ciao

- viole