"Religion of Peace?"

[JustWondering]

Only about 10-15% were nazi's, but look what happened there !

So you're saying 10-15% of Muslims are terrorists? Do you have something to back this up?

 

[JustWondering]

In Iraq it was a significant factor (but not the only one). Neo-con ideology significantly predates Bush jnr, and Iraq was an ideological war (albeit a hubristic one). Neocon ideology is not altruistic though, it is about protecting American interests. There is a fair crossover between neocon and liberal interventionist ideologies, which is why several centre left politicians (Blair, etc) got involved.

For wars to happen, there tend to be a number of factors that combine and gain support from various factions. Reality has demonstrated that these tend not to involve pipelines.

So, concerning the point I was actually defending we agree. America's involvement is to protect America's interests.

 

[JustWondering]

EVERY Muslim IS a potential terrorist for EVERY Muslim IS obligated to obey Allah and his prophet. You may not like nor want to believe what you read but Islam does not seek to live in peaceful co-existence with non-Muslims.

Ok, so you fear Muslims, you consider them all the "enemy", noted.

Now, could you post the verses of the Koran that say all non-believers should be killed?

 

[JustWondering]

Divide the Koran into two sections. The earlier "peaceful" verses are the ones revealed to Muhammad when he was in Mecca and had a small army. When he became militarily strong and migrated to Medina he stopped being softly softly to those who refused to accept his god and his prophethood. Then the real Muhammad and his god showed their other side. Then Muhammad started inflicting violence upon those he could not bring into Islam by peaceful persuasion. Then Muhammad's anger exploded and as we see today the kafir are to be given three options:

1/ Convert to Islam.

2/ If you are a Jew or Christian pay the jizya in humiliation of your dhimmi status.

3/ Be put to the sword.

Please site the relevant verses.

 

[JustWondering]

The "1.5 billion Muslims" have a code of rule to follow; the Koran, Hadith and Sunnah. Not one Muslim has the right to pick-and-choose which parts to live by as this is not allowable under Islam. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad for those Muslims who want to live in peace with non-Muslims. Trouble is, they are the ones being disobedient to Allah and their prophet. Muslims are told to kill and be killed for Allah. Frightening, I know, but I didn't write the books.

The same goes for Christianity. Jesus said that he didn't come to abolish the law, so the laws of the OT still apply according to Christ himself. How many OT commandments do you break on a daily basis?

I think we pretty much know where it's headed. You just don't want to admit it.

No we don't, please elaborate.

 

[JustWondering]

Is Pakistan a good example of the Religion of Peace in action?

I find it ironic that your user name is Notanumber and your avatar says "I am not a number" which infers that you value individuality, then you endeavor to paint a whole group of people (around 1.5 billion I think) with the same brush.

 

[Notanumber]

Way to go! You completely ignored what I posted and avoided answering my questions. Obviously you are here to smear people, not debate. I'll leave you to it then.

Is this smearing people?

 

[Notanumber]

I find it ironic that your user name is Notanumber and your avatar says "I am not a number" which infers that you value individuality, then you endeavor to paint a whole group of people (around 1.5 billion I think) with the same brush.

Did you answer my questions?

Is there any individuality in Islam or is it an all-controlling ideology?

Watch the David Wood video that I have just posted if you think I am painting anyone.

 

[paarsurrey]

That's right. So when Muhammad and his god say to kill the unbeliever Muslims are right in following their attacks against non-Muslims. Right?

The Koran/Islam doesn't encourage violence towards non-Muslims?

Surah 9.5 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Surah 9.29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

"The Koran/Islam doesn't encourage violence towards non-Muslims?"

Was Muhammad allowed by God to attack the non-Muslim-Meccans in first thirteen years of his ministry in Mecca before migration to Medina when he had to defend for survival against the aggressor Meccans and their allies? Please.

Regards

 

[Notanumber]

You cannot deny that Bill is right.

 

[hughwatt]

Ok, so you fear Muslims, you consider them all the "enemy", noted.

I never said that.

Now, could you post the verses of the Koran that say all non-believers should be killed?

Surah 9.5 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Surah 9.29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

 

[EtuMalku]

Is this smearing people?

Perfectly stated, thank you.

 

[hughwatt]

"The Koran/Islam doesn't encourage violence towards non-Muslims?"

Was Muhammad allowed by God to attack the non-Muslim-Meccans in first thirteen years of his ministry in Mecca before migration to Medina when he had to defend for survival against the aggressor Meccans and their allies? Please.

Regards

I will ask you to provide Islamic sources supporting your statement.

 

[paarsurrey]

I will ask you to provide Islamic sources supporting your statement.

One could check any source about Muhammad's life in Mecca before Hijra/migration, I give one below:
See chapter "The Holy Prophet—A Life Sketch" in the following:
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Introduction-Study-Holy-Quran.pdf
Please
Regards

 

[JustWondering]

I never said that.

You said that every Muslim is a potential terrorist, putting "every" in all caps no less. You made your view of Muslims clear.

Surah 9.5 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Surah 9.29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

Surah 9.1 makes it clear that this section of the Koran is discussing polytheistic Arabian tribes that have broken their agreements with the Muslims and attacked them first.

Surah 9.4 makes clear that the idolaters that have kept their word are not to be hurt, harassed, or attacked for they have kept their word.

Surah 9.5 instructs that even those that broke their word are to be spared if they repent and pay the poor rate, "leave their way free, Surely Allah is FORGIVING, MERCIFUL."

Surah 9.6 instructs that if an idolater seeks protection you are to give it to him, teach him about Allah, then convey him to his place of safety.

Surah 9.7 reinforces the importance of keeping agreements.

Surah 9.12-13 calls the Muslims to arms against those who broke their oaths.

Surah 9.29 is saber rattling and getting the Muslims ready for war. They were fighting against many local tribes and the Romans were expanding their territory.

The Koran also instructs that Muslims should not be the aggressors in conflicts. They should not harm women and children. Muslims should keep their word or it will anger Allah. If Muslims give their word to live in peace they must uphold it.

The mainstream media has done a good job of painting Islam/Muslims as scary and violent people but maybe you should educate yourself instead of taking the western war propaganda machines word on things. Have you ever met a Muslim in RL?

 

[TheTruthGivingDragon]

Islam is one of the religions I do not agree with...strongly considering they kill my kind. When a group takes a liking to killing your kind as is for lizards, relatives of dragons, then there is a problem. Sure Christians hate us too and they killed some of us they seemed to stop once that evil fake god said we were to stay in nice warm relaxing lava and take care of the "bad" people. Sure it sucks but it is better then being killed constantly.

 

[hughwatt]

One could check any source about Muhammad's life in Mecca before Hijra/migration, I give one below:
See chapter "The Holy Prophet—A Life Sketch" in the following:
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Introduction-Study-Holy-Quran.pdf
Please
Regards

Ibn Humayd- Salamah- Ibn Ishaq: The Messenger of God proclaimed God’s message openly and declared Islam publicly to his tribesmen. When he did so, they did not withdraw from him or reject him in anyway, as far as I had heard, until he spoke of their gods and denounced them. When he did this, they took exception to it and united in opposition and hostility to him, except for those of them whom God had protected from error by means of Islam. The latter were few in number and practiced their faith in secret. His uncle Abu Talib was friendly to him, however, and protected him and shielded him from them. The Messenger of God continued to do God’s work and to proclaim his message, undeterred by anything. When Quraysh saw that he would not give them any satisfaction, they objected to his departing from their ways and denouncing their gods, and seeing that Abu Talib protected him, shielded him from harm, and would not hand him over to them, a number of the nobles of Quraysh, consisting of such men as ‘Utbah b. Rabi‘ah, Shaybah b. Rabi‘ah, Abu al-Bakhtari b. Hisham, al-Aswad b. al-Muttalib, al-Walid b. al-Mughirah, Abu Jahl b. Hisham, al-‘As b. Wa’il and Nubayh and Munabbih, the sons of al-Hajjaj, went to Abu Talib and said, "Abu Talib, your nephew has reviled our gods, denounced our religion, derided our traditional values and told us that our forefathers were misguided. Either curb his attacks on us or give us a free hand to deal with him, for you are just as opposed to him as we are, and we will deal with him for you." Abu Talib gave them a mild answer and declined courteously, and they left him. The Messenger of God continued as before, proclaiming the faith of God and summoning people to it.

After this, Muhammad was estranged from the Quraysh, and they withdrew from him and harbored a secret hatred for him. They talked about him frequently amongst themselves and urged one another against him. Eventually they went to Abu Talib once again. "Abu Talib," they said, "we hold you in respect among us on account of your age, your nobility and your standing. We asked you to forbid your nephew to attack us, but you did not do so. By
God, we can no longer endure this vilification of our forefathers, this derision of our traditional values and this abuse of our gods. Either you restrain him or we shall fight both of you over this until one side or the other is destroyed," or words to that effect. Then they left. This breach and enmity with his tribe weighed heavily on Abu Talib, but he could not reconcile himself to surrendering the Messenger of God to them or deserting him.

Muhammad b. al-Husayn- Ahmad b. al-Mufaddal- Asbat- al-Suddi: A number of men of the Quraysh gathered together with a number of other shaykhs of the Quraysh, and said to one another, "Let us go to Abu Talib and speak to him about Muhammad, so that he will give us justice against him and order him to desist from reviling our gods and we will leave him to the god whom he worships for we fear that this old man may die and we may do something which the Arabs will reproach us for and say, ‘They let him alone until his uncle died, and then they laid hands on him.’"

They sent one of their number, whose name was al-Muttalib, to Abu Talib to ask permission for them to enter. He said, "Here are the shaykhs and nobles of your tribe asking permission to visit you." He told him to ask them to come in, and when they had done so they said, "Abu Talib, you are our elder and our chief, so give us justice against your nephew and order him to desist from reviling our gods, and we will leave him to his god."

Abu Talib sent for the Messenger of God, and when he came in he said, "Nephew, here are the shaykhs and nobles of your tribe. They have asked for justice against you, that you should desist from reviling their gods and they will leave you to your god." "Uncle," he said, "shall I not summon them to something which is better for them than their gods?" "What do you summon them to?" he asked. He replied, "I summon them to utter a saying through which the Arabs will submit to them and they will rule over the non-Arabs." Abu Jahl said from among the gathering, "What is it, by your father? We would give you it and ten like it." He answered, "That you should say, ‘There is no deity but God.’" They took fright at that and said, "Ask for anything rather than that!" But he said, "If you were to bring me the sun and put it into my hand, I would not ask you for anything other than this."

They rose up to leave in anger and said, "By God, we shall revile you and your god who commands you to do this!" "The chiefs among them hurried about, exhorting; Go and be staunch to your gods! This is a thing designed…" to the words "naught but an invention." (The History of al-Tabari: Muhammad at Mecca, translated and annotated by W. Montgomery Watt and M. V. McDonald [State University of New York Press, Albany 1988], Volume VI, pp. 93-95. Al-Tabari.

 

[hughwatt]

You said that every Muslim is a potential terrorist, putting "every" in all caps no less. You made your view of Muslims clear.

Read what I quoted from you and why "I never said that" in response.

Surah 9.1 makes it clear that this section of the Koran is discussing polytheistic Arabian tribes that have broken their agreements with the Muslims and attacked them first.

Surah 9.4 makes clear that the idolaters that have kept their word are not to be hurt, harassed, or attacked for they have kept their word.

Surah 9.5 instructs that even those that broke their word are to be spared if they repent and pay the poor rate, "leave their way free, Surely Allah is FORGIVING, MERCIFUL."

Surah 9.6 instructs that if an idolater seeks protection you are to give it to him, teach him about Allah, then convey him to his place of safety.

Surah 9.7 reinforces the importance of keeping agreements.

Surah 9.12-13 calls the Muslims to arms against those who broke their oaths.

Whether or not the polytheists were right in their idolatry, tell me, what right did Muhammad have to force them or anyone through violence to submit to Islam?

You also added proof Islam uses violent means against apostates thus making a mockery of surah 2:256 "There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion." Before we get there read surah 2:193: "Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors."

Surah 9.29 is saber rattling and getting the Muslims ready for war. They were fighting against many local tribes and the Romans were expanding their territory.

I'd like to see those references to back this claim.

The context of surah 9:29 says nothing of the sort. They were fighting against those whom Muslims and their god where trying to force into converting.

The Koran also instructs that Muslims should not be the aggressors in conflicts. They should not harm women and children. Muslims should keep their word or it will anger Allah. If Muslims give their word to live in peace they must uphold it.

You would have to be selective in providing any support for this.

The mainstream media has done a good job of painting Islam/Muslims as scary and violent people but maybe you should educate yourself instead of taking the western war propaganda machines word on things. Have you ever met a Muslim in RL?

The mainstream media has done and continues to do some job in creating a version of Islam which the taqiyyists could not of dreamed of prior to 9/11. When president George W. Bush had the Koran in the White house and told the world "Islam is a religion of peace" he became a PR man for the most intolerable most violent unforgiving religion this world has ever seen.

I could guess at what "RL" is short for but you tell me.

 

[JustWondering]

Read what I quoted from you and why "I never said that" in response.

I know exactly what you said, you accused ALL Muslims of potentially being terrorists.

Whether or not the polytheists were right in their idolatry, tell me, what right did Muhammad have to force them or anyone through violence to submit to Islam?

You have yet to show any evidence of this.

You also added proof Islam uses violent means against apostates thus making a mockery of surah 2:256 "There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion." Before we get there read surah 2:193: "

Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors."

Do not twist my words. I provided verses and provided clear explanation that said verses concerned their self defense against enemies that attacked them first.

Secondly, surah 2:190 states "And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you BUT be not aggressive. Surely Allah loves not the aggressor.

Again it is about defense, which you will ignore, again.

I'd like to see those references to back this claim.

I have already provided references and context which you obviously have no interest in.

The context of surah 9:29 says nothing of the sort. They were fighting against those whom Muslims and their god where trying to force into converting.

I provided you with the verses before and after 9:29 that CLEARLY show it was talking about self defense. Some of the verses I provided CLEARLY show that they were not to harm non-believers that kept their oaths of peace. I provided verses that CLEARLY show that non-believers who asked for protection where to be given protection. Good job on ignoring everything that clearly debunks your position!

You would have to be selective in providing any support for this.

Why? I have already provided verses from the Koran that clearly debunk your claims and you just cover your eyes and continue mumbling the same rhetoric.

The mainstream media has done and continues to do some job in creating a version of Islam which the taqiyyists could not of dreamed of prior to 9/11. When president George W. Bush had the Koran in the White house and told the world "Islam is a religion of peace" he became a PR man for the most intolerable most violent unforgiving religion this world has ever seen.

How dare he not vilify people who are different from him, how scandalous!

I could guess at what "RL" is short for but you tell me.

Real Life

 

[Notanumber]

Why does the Quran contain 109 passages that call for Muslims to wage war against non-believers?

He has many more questions that I would like to see answered.

---------------

If this had happened in America, would Mr Trump have said what Mrs May said?

Theresa May Says ‘Islamist’ Westminster Attack ‘Not Islamic’

Theresa May: ‘Islamist’ Attack ‘Not Islamic’ Conservative Newsroom

It is worth reading the comments sections to find out what the public believe.

I was going to vote for the Tories because of Brexit, but having now seen this I might have to reconsider and vote UKIP. They seem to be the only politicians with a backbone regarding Islam.