Immigration: The Elephant in the Room

[ADigitalArtist]

Are you saying that the competing interests in Africa and ME are all external? You're not discounting sectarianism correct?

On the contrary, most of African conflicts in the warlord category was largely internal, ME had both competing external and internal because of the resource struggle and lots of conflict over who should be ruling and how, with multiple powerful Western governments taking turns destabilizing one side, enforcing another. Said resource demands also makes ME leaders (the good, the bad and the ugly) more advanced, more volatile on a larger scale.

 

[icehorse]

On the contrary, most of African conflicts in the warlord category was largely internal, ME had both competing external and internal because of the resource struggle and lots of conflict over who should be ruling and how, with multiple powerful Western governments taking turns destabilizing one side, enforcing another. Said resource demands also makes ME leaders (the good, the bad and the ugly) more advanced, more volatile on a larger scale.

So, why so much internal strife in these regions?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

So, why so much internal strife in these regions?

Probably nothing so simple as one reason. Though the aforementioned resources probably have a hell of an influence.

 

[icehorse]

Probably nothing so simple as one reason. Though the aforementioned resources probably have a hell of an influence.

Agreed. Any other reasons come to mind?

 

[whirlingmerc]

Why is it that in 2017, the vast majority of people in the world who want to immigrate, want to go from Muslim Majority countries into western secular countries?

(Yes I understand that we also see migration from Mexico and Central American into the U.S.)

My guess is that we'll hear variations on "because colonialism", which I have to say feels like a really weak argument.

It's hard to compare because so many are in disrupted places with wars and such.
There also tends to be greater opportunity to make a living and provide for family in the US

 

[icehorse]

It's hard to compare because so many are in disrupted places with wars and such.
There also tends to be greater opportunity to make a living and provide for family in the US

And why do you think that is?

 

[LuisDantas]

Why is it that in 2017, the vast majority of people in the world who want to immigrate, want to go from Muslim Majority countries into western secular countries?

(Yes I understand that we also see migration from Mexico and Central American into the U.S.)

My guess is that we'll hear variations on "because colonialism", which I have to say feels like a really weak argument.

I don't know whether the premise is correct. Many people worldwide want to migrate but never act on that wish, mainly for financial or family reasons.

Currently, many people in the Middle East are so deprived of perspective or basic structure that becoming refugees becomes attractive despite a lack of any assurances on the results. I don't think too many of them actually want to migrate exactly, and I doubt most would choose the USA if given a choice.

That said, it seems to me that Muslim communities have a long history, almost a tradition even, of botching their own political systems and social environments something fierce.

As one would expect, once he or she has learned enough.

I almost feel entitled to say that such is their actual goal, going from what I have learned in the last few years. All that insistence on following the supposed will of God and perceiving enemies left and right never helped them, nor could it. They end up just way too busy to actually find and implement any solutions worth of that name.

 

[whirlingmerc]

And why do you think that is?

Syria, Egypt, Iraall disrupted
additionally moderate muslims and non muslim minorities are experiencing allot of perfection in those region; therefore they would tend to flee

Moderate muslims and christians in those regions would have reason to flee. Perhaps allot of the Christians in those regions don't have opportunity

 

[icehorse]

Currently, many people in the Middle East are so deprived of perspective or basic structure that becoming refugees becomes attractive despite a lack of any assurances on the results.

(Borrowing as I am from Toyota's "5 whys" approach)

Why are they so deprived?

 

[sun rise]

So, why so much internal strife in these regions?

France and England drew national boundaries ignoring the ethnic distribution in the area. See the history of the Sykes-Picot agreement.

As far as where immigrants come from, #1 is Mexico, #2 is China, #3 is India, #4 is Philippines and #5 is Vietnam
From Ireland to Germany to Italy to Mexico: How America’s Source of Immigrants Has Changed in the States, 1850 – 2013

 

[LuisDantas]

(Borrowing as I am from Toyota's "5 whys" approach)

Why are they so deprived?

Mainly because they are stuck in a self-defeating model of society that is based on obedience, submission and the utterly theocentric doctrine that is Islaam.

Teaching each other and their own children to aim for being tribal, fearful and submissive to authority can't really have too different a result. Except, perhaps, to the extent that some form of external colonianism or imperialism can ward them away from those results for a while.

But that is just a temporary measure at best, and of course ridden with its own downsides. At some point they will have to learn better, much despite their own hopes.

 

[Augustus]

Why is it that in 2017, the vast majority of people in the world who want to immigrate, want to go from Muslim Majority countries into western secular countries?

Geography and religious demographics are quite important, Mexicans go to America and folk from MENA go to Europe. So Europe gets more Muslim immigrants because they are closer.

Obviously the wars in Iraq, Syria and Libya are big factors.

High youth unemployment due to corrupt and stagnant economies.

etc.

 

[leibowde84]

Why was the ME in need of outside help during the cold war?

I would suggest that you look into it, as it was somewhat complicated. But, in Afghanistan, for example, the Soviet Union was attacking unarmed civilians throughout the country. The US saw it as an opportunity for those civilians to fight the Soviets for them. So, they provided them with advanced weapons that could be used to shoot down aircraft and modern guns to protect themselves. Charlie Wilson was a big influence in this campaign.

It was, without a doubt, the right thing to do at the time. But, after the Russians gave up, we left the weapons in the vacuum that was created. We failed to create infrastructure, schools, etc. And, most importantly, left them without a stable government.

 

[icehorse]

Mainly because they are stuck in a self-defeating model of society that is based on obedience, submission and the utterly theocentric doctrine that is Islaam.

Eloquently put Luis, thank you.

 

[Stevicus]

Why is it that in 2017, the vast majority of people in the world who want to immigrate, want to go from Muslim Majority countries into western secular countries?

(Yes I understand that we also see migration from Mexico and Central American into the U.S.)

My guess is that we'll hear variations on "because colonialism", which I have to say feels like a really weak argument.

Well, it's not just colonialism, but that certainly was a factor which led to a lot of situations we're dealing with nowadays. The Cold War may have been another factor as well, at least in terms of our Middle Eastern policies to contain the Soviets from gaining control of the region.

I'm not sure if they constitute the vast majority of people in the world who want to immigrate. I haven't checked the stats recently, but my understanding is the vast majority of immigrants to the US still come from Mexico. Many also from China, India, and the Philippines. Europe may be different and has a larger number of Muslims due to closer proximity to the Middle East.

I think it becomes "the elephant in the room" because whenever there is any kind of open debate on the subject, it touches on quite a number of other topics which are highly controversial and emotionally charged. I also think that with all the invective being thrown back and forth, people lose sight of what the actual issue is. If the issue is immigration, then we may need to first discuss whether we want any immigrants at all from any country. That's a fair question, and one that might bear examination, despite our historical tradition of being a "land of immigrants." If, however, we say that we want immigrants from some countries but not others, then that makes the issue all the more complicated.

 

[Yerda]

So, why so much internal strife in these regions?

Have you looked at the history?

Maybe they haven't managed to build (or successfully maintain) the social structures that allow people to function in a less...strifey manner.

We live in cosyness because over hundreds of years people built and maintained institutions like stable governments, resilient justice systems, police forces, local governance, education and health systems, national print and broadcast media with the ability to scrutines the powerful etc.

That's not as satisying as suggesting it's all the evils of imperialism/Islam but I reckon it's significant.

 

[icehorse]

If, however, we say that we want immigrants from some countries but not others, then that makes the issue all the more complicated.

Well to varying degrees most westerns having been saying that for decades.

 

[icehorse]

Have you looked at the history?

Maybe they haven't managed to build (or successfully maintain) the social structures that allow people to function in a less...strifey manner.

We live in cosyness because over hundreds of years people built and maintained institutions like stable governments, resilient justice systems, police forces, local governance, education and health systems, national print and broadcast media with the ability to scrutines the powerful etc.

That's not as satisying as suggesting it's all the evils of imperialism/Islam but I reckon it's significant.

It seems to me that a key reason they haven't been able to build / maintain the things you listed (stable govs., resilient justice, education and so on), is because Islam itself is resistant to such things.

 

[Yerda]

It seems to me that a key reason they haven't been able to build / maintain the things you listed (stable govs., resilient justice, education and so on), is because Islam itself is resistant to such things.

It might be. We shouldn't ignore it, but I doubt that's more than a piece of the whole picture.

Would the Middle-East be in the mess it is if it hadn't been subjected to hundreds of years of conquest? I don't think so. Afghanistan and Iran are interesting cases. From the little I've read both seemed headed towards something like Western style democracy before the progress was arrested by outside forces and power handed to reactionary puppets.

Would ISIS be charging around the Levant beheading and raping anything in sight if the political and military structures hadn't been weakened or destroyed? It's hard to imagine.

I don't mean this to be taken as, it's all our fault. It's not. It's a giant mess that we can only do so much to help fix but we should probably start by assuming Muslims have the same instincts for peace as everyone else and hope to help them achieve this.

 

[icehorse]

I don't mean this to be taken as, it's all our fault. It's not. It's a giant mess that we can only do so much to help fix but we should probably start by assuming Muslims have the same instincts for peace as everyone else and hope to help them achieve this.

I agree with much of this, but I want push back at the last thing you said. I believe that children born to Muslims have the same instincts for peace as everyone else but that the Islamic indoctrination they are subjected to negatively impacts those better instincts.