Immigration: The Elephant in the Room

[icehorse]

Why is it that in 2017, the vast majority of people in the world who want to immigrate, want to go from Muslim Majority countries into western secular countries?

(Yes I understand that we also see migration from Mexico and Central American into the U.S.)

My guess is that we'll hear variations on "because colonialism", which I have to say feels like a really weak argument.

 

[Kemosloby]

Because Obama bombed all the Muslim countries and disrupted their governments, allowing bands of thugs to turn their countries into war zones? More or less

 

[leibowde84]

Why is it that in 2017, the vast majority of people in the world who want to immigrate, want to go from Muslim Majority countries into western secular countries?

(Yes I understand that we also see migration from Mexico and Central American into the U.S.)

My guess is that we'll hear variations on "because colonialism", which I have to say feels like a really weak argument.

It is obviously because many Muslim immigrants are coming from war torn countries. They are coming from unstable areas of the world where power has been up for grabs for various reasons. I don't think it has anything to do with religion. It is due to violence.

 

[icehorse]

It is obviously because many Muslim immigrants are coming from war torn countries. They are coming from unstable areas of the world where power has been up for grabs for various reasons. I don't think it has anything to do with religion. It is due to violence.

Why are these regions unstable and war torn?

 

[leibowde84]

Why are these regions unstable and war torn?

There are many reasons. The Middle East, to a large degree, became unstable during the Cold War. The US gave tribes weapons to defend themselves against the Soviet Union, who were murdering defenseless civilians with helicopters and advanced weaponry. When the war ended, we just kind of left them to figure out their own future. But, we didn't realize (or maybe we just didn't care) that leaving them with weapons all over the place without building infrastructure, schools, etc. would lead to massive instability. Certain groups used those weapons to try to take power for themselves, and different groups fought each other leaving most innocent civilians in horrible, violent situations.

 

[icehorse]

There are many reasons.

Hmmm, how about Africa? And why would our support make the ME more unstable than other areas that have received western support?

 

[leibowde84]

Hmmm, how about Africa? And why would our support make the ME more unstable than other areas that have received western support?

Africa had the same issues with other European nations at other times throughout history.

In regards to other areas that have received western support, cab you provide an example area?

 

[icehorse]

Africa had the same issues with other European nations at other times throughout history.

In regards to other areas that have received western support, cab you provide an example area?

So it sounds like much of your argument is "because colonialism"?

Other areas, the Pacific countries, South America, Eastern bloc, India, SE Asia...

 

[leibowde84]

So it sounds like much of your argument is "because colonialism"?

Other areas, the Pacific countries, South America, Eastern bloc, India, SE Asia...

No, not colonialism. It is due to massive amounts of weapons being present and no power structure. That leads to violence and emigration.

The areas you mentioned did have violent periods in the past.

 

[psychoslice]

maybe their hoping to take over and make the world Muslim ?.

 

[icehorse]

Here's another data point to consider: Germany and Japan have manged to bounce back quite nicely after WW II devastation.

 

[icehorse]

The Middle East, to a large degree, became unstable during the Cold War. The US gave tribes weapons to defend themselves against the Soviet Union, who were murdering defenseless civilians with helicopters and advanced weaponry.

Why was the ME in need of outside help during the cold war?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Here's another data point to consider: Germany and Japan have manged to bounce back quite nicely after WW II devastation.

They also had infrastructure built that lasted, and wasn't torn down by competing interests setting up multiple dummy governments, for decades.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

Why is it that in 2017, the vast majority of people in the world who want to immigrate, want to go from Muslim Majority countries into western secular countries?

(Yes I understand that we also see migration from Mexico and Central American into the U.S.)

My guess is that we'll hear variations on "because colonialism", which I have to say feels like a really weak argument.

Why is it that you do not see the West as it is: Christian?
Is it because the men in the west who dress in black and pound a hammer that sends people to prison say that God does not exist?

 

[icehorse]

Why is it that you do not see the West as it is: Christian?
Is it because the men in the west who dress in black and pound a hammer that sends people to prison say that God does not exist?

I agree the west's roots are in Christianity. But Christianity has been receding steadily as science ad secularism have risen. But we can credit Christianity for being somewhat more open to these more modern ideas.

 

[icehorse]

They also had infrastructure built that lasted, and wasn't torn down by competing interests setting up multiple dummy governments, for decades.

Are you saying that the competing interests in Africa and ME are all external? You're not discounting sectarianism correct?

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

I agree the west's roots are in Christianity. But Christianity has been receding steadily as science ad secularism have risen. But we can credit Christianity for being somewhat more open to these more modern ideas.

I think True Christianity has been on the increase for 2000 years.
In centuries past, people felt compelled to say they were Christian, even though
in their hearts they were often not.

Nowadays there is more free choice because there is more genuine Christian belief
and thus society has the capacity to be able to allow such free choice.

 

[icehorse]

I think True Christianity has been on the increase for 2000 years.
In centuries past, people felt compelled to say they were Christian, even though
in their hearts they were often not.

Nowadays there is more free choice because there is more genuine Christian belief
and thus society has the capacity to be able to allow such free choice.

along THAT vector I could agree. But in terms of how much influence it has in day-to-day life, I'd say it's receding.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

along THAT vector I could agree. But in terms of how much influence it has in day-to-day life, I'd say it's receding.

Well, we do have more freedom to do un-christian things,
and we therefore also have more freedom to pursue freely-chosen Christianity.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Why is it that in 2017, the vast majority of people in the world who want to immigrate, want to go from Muslim Majority countries into western secular countries?

(Yes I understand that we also see migration from Mexico and Central American into the U.S.)

My guess is that we'll hear variations on "because colonialism", which I have to say feels like a really weak argument.

1. Because many of the Muslim nations in question are currently at war. War always creates refugees.
2. As many Muslim nations become ever more radical there are more and more moderate Muslims who wish to immigrate to nations where religious freedom exists.