Is "salvation" possible under the Law?

[Tarheeler]

I'm still trying to figure out what I need to be saved from.

 

[CG Didymus]

I did not understand what you mean above. You say, "So long after Jesus' time we have Jews that stayed with Judaism." What did you expect we should do if Jesus himself was with Judaism all his life and he did teach us to listen to "Moses" aka the Law? (Luke 16:29-31)

Yes you did misunderstand what I was trying to say. So let me try again. Jews were tortured and killed for not converting during the Inquisition. Some converted, but what kind of Christianity did they convert to? It wasn't the "Saved" "Born-again" Protestant Christianity. It was a Christianity that was so corrupt that eventually Luther got the reformation and Protestantism going. So were the Jews that refused to convert better off and more "saved" by holding true and dying for their beliefs in Judaism?

 

[CG Didymus]

Salvation is via trusting God.

Let's rephrase your question: "Prior to Jesus, was anybody saved by trusting God?"

Can we end the thread then, thusly?

So if a person, prior to Jesus, trusted God, that person would be considered "saved" in the way Christians define the word? I imagine, yes. People like David, Moses, Joshua, Isaiah, Elijah, Abraham and many more. But now that Jesus has come... is a Jew that trusts God and repents of his/her sins "saved"? I suppose a Christian would have to say no, but why? Has the truth about God found in the Jewish Bible become invalid? Everything God told the Jews to believe and do no longer works?

 

[CG Didymus]

I'm still trying to figure out what I need to be saved from.

That's such a great point. The little I know about Judaism, it is so different than Christianity. Hell and Satan is what I was told I needed to get saved from. I had to ask myself, if those things are so important, why didn't God give them the same treatment in the Jewish Scriptures? Thanks Tarheeler for your post. Oh, thanks to you too Metis, I always like the things you say.

 

[Ben Avraham]

You misquoted the NT, where Jesus said of Moses AND THE PROPHETS, let them HEAR THEM, not YE MUST DO THE LAW OF MOSES.

You are pursuing righteousness from Ha Shem as though it were by works, when it is by faith. He who has an ear to HEAR, let them HEAR!

Faith without obedience of the Law will get you nowhere. According to James 2:26 faith without works is akin to a body without the breath of of life. Dead, if you wanna know what he meant. If you read II Corinthians 5:7 Paul said that his followers must walk by faith, not by sight. He knew that to walk by sight is to walk with understanding. But, probably, he wanted his followers to walk in the dark and leave the understanding with him. No, thank you but no, thanks. I wanna know where I walk and where to. You need a break to read Psalms 119 to understand the meaning of righteousness through the Law. Try to use faith only and disregard the Law, and you will know where you will wake up tomorrow!

 

[metis]

I'm still trying to figure out what I need to be saved from.

You?

 

[metis]

I suppose a Christian would have to say no, but why? Has the truth about God found in the Jewish Bible become invalid? Everything God told the Jews to believe and do no longer works?

Plus the "only Jesus saves" belief turns God into basically a genocidal maniac who condemns people on just the basis alone of not having the "right" politically-correct belief. According to that approach, apparently actions don't really count, which is totally counter to what the Tanakh states and even what Jesus taught (Parable of the Sheep & Goats-- Matthew 25).

 

[Aberamentho]

I know what you are talking about, Paul was either a dangerous hypocrite or trying to preach his gospel by proxy as being himself the Messiah of Christianity. (Acts 11:26) How could he declare God's Law a curse and dead when Jesus himself would teach us all to listen to "Moses" aka the Law? (Luke 16:29-31)

 

[Aberamentho]

Someone asked me about babies being circumcized and I am having trouble sending them this message.

I am confused. Paul was debating, to be generous, it was more like mocking circumcision for adult converts of Greek descent.

I wasn't talking about babies who obviously don't have a choice in the matter. I don't know if they thought they were on to something but babies is something you brought up and has nothing to do with Paul saying anyone who ALLOWED themselves to be circumcised was bound to the whole Law.

Step your game up.

 

[Aberamentho]

What! What are you talking about! How could an 8 days old babe refuse circumcision on the reason that he did not want to be bound to the whole Law? You must be kidding! Unless he became one like Paul who released himself from the Law as an adult. (Romans 7:6)

You are clearly misrepresenting what I said.

I said anyone who ALLOWED themselves to be circumcised was according to Paul bound to the whole Law.

I didn't hint at never mind mention babies and if you knew Paul's letters and the NT you would know that I am talking about the "big" circumcision debate.

Paul stated anyone, obviously an adult, who let themselves get circumcised meaning went over to the Apostles side, was bound to the whole Law as a scare tactic to people who left his group.

Show me where I mentioned babies.

 

[Aberamentho]

Faith without obedience of the Law will get you nowhere. According to James 2:26 faith without works is akin to a body without the breath of of life. Dead, if you wanna know what he meant. If you read II Corinthians 5:7 Paul said that his followers must walk by faith, not by sight. He knew that to walk by sight is to walk with understanding. But, probably, he wanted his followers to walk in the dark and leave the understanding with him. No, thank you but no, thanks. I wanna know where I walk and where to. You need a break to read Psalms 119 to understand the meaning of righteousness through the Law. Try to use faith only and disregard the Law, and you will know where you will wake up tomorrow!

Faith alone justifies us, saves, etc. is the Anti Law position of Paul who muddles works with works of Torah/Law but always means the same thing.

The Law is a curse, dead and the cause of sin in Paul's pseudo logic. I will be happy to cite verse and chapter if you request. Salvation comes from faith in Paul because only he teaches this. The Apostles were Zealots, zealous for the Law at the least. Faith without works is dead according to the brother of Jesus.

Clearly Paul and the three Zaddiks or pillars, Zaddikim, Ya'akov, Yohann and Cephas/Simon (an interesting parallel with Qumran, who also had a 12 and 3 leadership set up) were enemies and not of the same mind.

Salvation being dependent upon a creed or the teachings of Paul alone is atrocious theology.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Many Christians present Jesus as the "only" way to get into heaven. That everybody, without Jesus, is lost in their sin. That nothing they can do on their own is good enough. And, without accepting Jesus, God will send them to hell.

So the question for Christians is: Prior to Jesus, was anybody "saved" under the Law? For Jews, was getting "saved", as believed by Christians, a concept that was ever part of Judaism?

A very good
We see Prophets and people saved before and after the Law.
Abraham was before the Law. What came to mind is Christ and the meeting with Moses and Elijah.

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Those who know God are seen here still very much alive but out of the earthly body.

We know that God was to send a 'Messiah' a Prophet like Moses.

So those who obeyed the Law and those who believed what God said... were saved. But Christ has the better covenant in that the ultimate sacrifice to remove all sin was made.

 

[moorea944]

A very good
We see Prophets and people saved before and after the Law.
Abraham was before the Law. What came to mind is Christ and the meeting with Moses and Elijah.

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Those who know God are seen here still very much alive but out of the earthly body.

We know that God was to send a 'Messiah' a Prophet like Moses.

So those who obeyed the Law and those who believed what God said... were saved. But Christ has the better covenant in that the ultimate sacrifice to remove all sin was made.

We see Prophets and people saved before and after the Law.
Abraham was before the Law.

Absolutely! Look at David, he was under the law. The law wasnt meant to save, it was to bring you to Christ, as Paul says. But they were justified by faith.

What came to mind is Christ and the meeting with Moses and Elijah.
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

That was only a vision, that wasnt real. Scripture tells us that too. Remember that Heb 11 tells us that no one has gotten their rewards or promises yet, not until Christ returns. Plus, there is no verse in scripture that tells us that we go to heaven at death. We are dead till the resurrection.

Those who know God are seen here still very much alive but out of the earthly body.

Dont know what that actually means... out of the earthly body... Bible tells us that your dead until resurrection. Scripture also tells us that when your dead, you cannot worship God, or love, hate, remember, etc.....

So those who obeyed the Law and those who believed what God said... were saved.

What is "saved" for you? Being saved out of something, being saved into something, being saved as to be "set a part" for something in the future? Paul didnt even know that he was going to be in the kingdom at Christ's return.

But Christ has the better covenant in that the ultimate sacrifice to remove all sin was made.

Removing all sin.... yes, eventually. We still sin, that is our nature. We fail God in two ways. We sin and we fail to manifest His charactor. All sin will be removed someday when God's son is here.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Absolutely! Look at David, he was under the law. The law wasnt meant to save, it was to bring you to Christ, as Paul says. But they were justified by faith.

If you check the NT you will see the Law was given to reveal what was sin and when the law came man died because of his sin,

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died..

That was only a vision, that wasnt real. Scripture tells us that too. Remember that Heb 11 tells us that no one has gotten their rewards or promises yet, not until Christ returns. Plus, there is no verse in scripture that tells us that we go to heaven at death. We are dead till the resurrection.

The teachings are clear if you study the word. " Today you shall be with me in Paradise" Is being with Christ in Paradise about receiving a reward? Scriptures do not say that Moses and Elijah were not real.11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire in a whirlwind.
Christ tells us And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Elijah never died and as we see the Lord did come back for Stephen. So no rewards received till Christ returns.
But

Dont know what that actually means... out of the earthly body... Bible tells us that your dead until resurrection. Scripture also tells us that when your dead, you cannot worship God, or love, hate, remember, etc.....

The bible does NOT lie. The above is the words of Christ and the disciples. Were they really dead or in paradise with Christ, the thief crucified and Elijah? Did Dives and Lazarus really speak to Abraham after they died when the Angels carried them off? They say death is sleeps twin brother. As you have no idea of time passing when asleep the same it is in death, For all awake at the same time as you close your eyes in death you open them to judgement. But Christians have passed from judgement and their works are what counts.

What is "saved" for you?

Gods people are those who live in Spirit and Truth they are the true worshipers of God. If you do not have the Spirit you are none of Gods.

Being saved out of something, being saved into something, being saved as to be "set a part" for something in the future?

A royal priesthood the children of God. Anything 'Holy' is belonging to God and anything used for God is holy as in set aside for God. A living people of God.

Paul didnt even know that he was going to be in the kingdom at Christ's return.

The Kingdom of God is within us. As Christ said, "My Kingdom is not of this world" a people chosen and within whom the Kingdom of God exists.

Removing all sin.... yes, eventually. We still sin, that is our nature. We fail God in two ways. We sin and we fail to manifest His charactor. All sin will be removed someday when God's son is here.

Yet John tells us that no child of God keeps on sinning.Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Gods righteousness is not given us by our own acts or deeds. We are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.


Jeremiah 23:6
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

The word of God in Christ Jesus is the only solid 'rock' of truth.

 

[moorea944]

If you check the NT you will see the Law was given to reveal what was sin and when the law came man died because of his sin,

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died..




The teachings are clear if you study the word. " Today you shall be with me in Paradise" Is being with Christ in Paradise about receiving a reward? Scriptures do not say that Moses and Elijah were not real.11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire in a whirlwind.
Christ tells us And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Elijah never died and as we see the Lord did come back for Stephen. So no rewards received till Christ returns.
But



The bible does NOT lie. The above is the words of Christ and the disciples. Were they really dead or in paradise with Christ, the thief crucified and Elijah? Did Dives and Lazarus really speak to Abraham after they died when the Angels carried them off? They say death is sleeps twin brother. As you have no idea of time passing when asleep the same it is in death, For all awake at the same time as you close your eyes in death you open them to judgement. But Christians have passed from judgement and their works are what counts.





Gods people are those who live in Spirit and Truth they are the true worshipers of God. If you do not have the Spirit you are none of Gods.


A royal priesthood the children of God. Anything 'Holy' is belonging to God and anything used for God is holy as in set aside for God. A living people of God.



The Kingdom of God is within us. As Christ said, "My Kingdom is not of this world" a people chosen and within whom the Kingdom of God exists.


Yet John tells us that no child of God keeps on sinning.Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Gods righteousness is not given us by our own acts or deeds. We are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.


Jeremiah 23:6
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

The word of God in Christ Jesus is the only solid 'rock' of truth.

The Kingdom of God is within us. As Christ said, "My Kingdom is not of this world" a people chosen and within whom the Kingdom of God exists

If we really believe that the kingdom of God is here now, we have to throw out the rest of the bible. We really shouldnt just take one verse and make a doctrine on it without seeing what else scripture has to say about that topic.
We know that the kingdom is NOT here. OT prophet books tell us that too, along with NT. Is the kingdom within us? I hope so. It has to be something that we want. Is it in our hearts and minds..... All through the NT, it talks about people still waiting for the kingdom to appear. Strange if it is already here.........

Yet John tells us that no child of God keeps on sinning.Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Ok..... but what else does scripture tell us. I think that verse would mean continual sinning, the same sin, knowing it is a sin, but keep on doing it. Because, John also tells us this...
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
I hope you really dont think that you dont sin anymore......

 

[RESOLUTION]

If we really believe that the kingdom of God is here now, we have to throw out the rest of the bible. We really shouldnt just take one verse and make a doctrine on it without seeing what else scripture has to say about that topic.
We know that the kingdom is NOT here.

Not at all,. Christ just not taken his Kingdom to himself at this moment in time.
But whoever has the Spirit of God is a Child of God and a member of the Kingdom of heaven.
As Christ said, the Kingdom does not come in a way to be seen for the Kingdom of God is within us.

OT prophet books tell us that too, along with NT. Is the kingdom within us? I hope so. It has to be something that we want. Is it in our hearts and minds..... All through the NT, it talks about people still waiting for the kingdom to appear. Strange if it is already here.........

If do not have the Spirit then you are none of his. Jesus established the Kingdom." Unless, I go away the Holy Spirit cannot come to you."
John 16:13 (KJV)
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. Christ set the Kingdom up at his first coming and as we see there is a process of the 10 virgins only 5 were wise and trimmed their lamps. So the more we listen to the Spirit the old person dies and the new is born.

Ok..... but what else does scripture tell us. I think that verse would mean continual sinning, the same sin, knowing it is a sin, but keep on doing it. Because, John also tells us this...
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Isn't that true for all those not reborn in Spirit and Truth. For has Christ not died for all the sins of a person?
Did he know and tell Peter about his denial? It is a continual relationship of listening to God Spirit and allowing him to change us for Gods Glory. Hence when Christ comes he will find some wise virgins ready.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
I hope you really dont think that you dont sin anymore......

It does not say " No child of Gods continues sinning with immediate affect." But they do stop sinning they turn from the old to go the way of God. But we have and advocate Jesus Christ who intercedes for us and so we can be forgiven if we fall.

 

[moorea944]

Not at all,. Christ just not taken his Kingdom to himself at this moment in time.
But whoever has the Spirit of God is a Child of God and a member of the Kingdom of heaven.
As Christ said, the Kingdom does not come in a way to be seen for the Kingdom of God is within us.





If do not have the Spirit then you are none of his. Jesus established the Kingdom." Unless, I go away the Holy Spirit cannot come to you."
John 16:13 (KJV)
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. Christ set the Kingdom up at his first coming and as we see there is a process of the 10 virgins only 5 were wise and trimmed their lamps. So the more we listen to the Spirit the old person dies and the new is born.




Isn't that true for all those not reborn in Spirit and Truth. For has Christ not died for all the sins of a person?
Did he know and tell Peter about his denial? It is a continual relationship of listening to God Spirit and allowing him to change us for Gods Glory. Hence when Christ comes he will find some wise virgins ready.



It does not say " No child of Gods continues sinning with immediate affect." But they do stop sinning they turn from the old to go the way of God. But we have and advocate Jesus Christ who intercedes for us and so we can be forgiven if we fall.

As Christ said, the Kingdom does not come in a way to be seen for the Kingdom of God is within us.

At that time. The kingdom wasnt suppose to happen then, it was a future event. Look at his parables. It's all about Jesus going away and coming back to set up his kingdom.

Jesus established the Kingdom."

No he hasnt. He has to come back first. Plus, look at the prophet books. Alot of them give us a glimpse of what the kingdom will be like. Jesus will rule as King from Jerusalem. Just for starters. That hasnt happen yet.
So my question to you is, what is the kingdom of God to you? Is it something in your heart or will it be something real and that it will be set up on earth.

 

[RESOLUTION]

At that time. The kingdom wasnt suppose to happen then, it was a future event. Look at his parables. It's all about Jesus going away and coming back to set up his kingdom.

Jesus said: " My Kingdom is not of this world"
John 3:5(KJV)
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 4.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

Members of the Kingdom of God but Christ has not yet come into his Kingdom.

No he hasnt. He has to come back first. Plus, look at the prophet books. Alot of them give us a glimpse of what the kingdom will be like. Jesus will rule as King from Jerusalem. Just for starters. That hasnt happen yet.
So my question to you is, what is the kingdom of God to you? Is it something in your heart or will it be something real and that it will be set up on earth.

King James Bible
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

AND NOW IS....

So we see Christ is telling us the Kingdom of God is within a person.
That true worshippers shall worship in Spirit and Truth. Christ has not come back to receive those who are the Kingdom because a kingdom like the church are people. People who are born of the Spirit and Truth.

 

[moorea944]

Jesus said: " My Kingdom is not of this world"
John 3:5(KJV)
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 4.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

Members of the Kingdom of God but Christ has not yet come into his Kingdom.






King James Bible
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

AND NOW IS....

So we see Christ is telling us the Kingdom of God is within a person.
That true worshippers shall worship in Spirit and Truth. Christ has not come back to receive those who are the Kingdom because a kingdom like the church are people. People who are born of the Spirit and Truth.

Jesus said: " My Kingdom is not of this world"

Yes, of course. He is right for saying that. It is from Heaven.
The Lord's prayer. "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is done in heaven"
The whole bible, like I said before, is about a kingdom that will be on earth. That is all through scripture.

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God

Absolutely. Baptism is essential for salvation. We need to be in a covenant relationship with our God and Jesus. Read Gal 3.

Members of the Kingdom of God but Christ has not yet come into his Kingdom.

Yes, Christ has not come back yet to start the kingdom.
Ok, if we really think that the kingdom is already here, we have to through out most of the bible.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

What does that have to do with what we are talking about.

So we see Christ is telling us the Kingdom of God is within a person.
That true worshippers shall worship in Spirit and Truth. Christ has not come back to receive those who are the Kingdom because a kingdom like the church are people. People who are born of the Spirit and Truth.

I'm trying to figure out where your getting this from. Yes, there is one verse that tells us that the kingdom is within us. It has to be, but that is not 'THE KINGDOM" that is coming and that what i'm talking about.
Plus, the kingdom is not the church or the people. The people will be part of it. There are hundreds and hundreds of verses on the kingdom and what it will be like here on earth. Im just trying to figure out what you are thinking when your reading those. Do you not read the OT?

 

[RESOLUTION]

"it is finished" does it ring a bell?

Christ has already established that Kingdom. King James Bible
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

King James Bible
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.