Resurrection of Christ: Literal fact or spiritual reality?

[Dawnofhope]

First let me address Jn 5:19. To become our faithful High Priest Jesus had to be made exactly like His brethren(Heb 2:17) We are not omnipotent, omniscient nor omnipresent. Neither was Jesus during His incarnation, He emptied himself of these qualities(Phil 2:7).


IMO the Bible clearly teaches Jesus is God.(Jn 1:1 & 10:30. There are other verse that teach this but they are not really needed. So, again IMO, one must believe Jesus is God to be a Christian.

I hope you don't see my understanding as a insult to your religion. Bahai is certainly a moral based religion and I sincerely respect any religion based on being moral and treating everyone with respect. However being moral does not make one a Christian, although Christians should be as moral as they can be. Chapter 7 of Romans shows us what Christians are up against.

My comment was based on my understanding of God's word.

Thank you for your response Omega. Baha'is avoid taking or giving offence. It is good that you take ownership of your comments saying that it is based on your understanding of God's word. Of course, like you I base my understanding on God's word as well. Christians although they believe in Moses do not claim to be Jews. Similarly Baha'is belief in Jesus but we do not claim to be Christians.

You are right to quote the verses which would suggest Jesus is God incarnate, but the verses I have quoted highlights problems with this view. We must have a theology that reconciles internal contradictions and inconsistencies. So lets consider if there could be a different meaning behind some of those verses.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John1:1

The Word is symbolic for completeness or perfection as opposed to letters that make up a word. The Word in this context symbolises a perfect man or the Christ, Jesus. God has always planned from the beginning He would manifest Himself through Christ. However this is a spiritual, rather than physical incarnation. If it were physical it contradicts other scriptures. Furthermore Jesus is the 'Son of God' and He was conceived of the Holy Ghost. Matthew 1:20

In regards John 5:19 "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

You have quoted:
"Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." Hebrews 2:17

That is to say that Jesus has come on earth as a man like us, but his rank is like the Highest Priest, and He will bring reconciliation for the sins of the Jewish People (refer Daniel 9)

Philippians 2:7 that you have quoted once again highlights Jesus as a man or 'son of man'.

The best analogy I can give is Jesus like a perfect mirror that reflects the image of God(the sun). The mirror is not the Sun. To know Jesus is to see God's perfections reflected in Him.

With this image in mind John 10:30 makes perfect sense. Remember no one has ever seen God John 1:18

I hope that clarifies my perspective

 

[Dawnofhope]

I believe there is an ambiguity between Heaven (void inside the universe) and heaven (sky). I believe Jesus ascended into the sky but that does not mean He is nearby.

Therein lies the paradox of a man whose physical body rose into the sky, yet Heaven is not to be found in the phenomenal world.

 

[omega2xx]

With all that evidence it should be very easy to convince me. I'm a reasonable person

If you don't believe what was written by honest men, there is no way anyone can convince you.

They have been preached to all the nations though....

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14

WE are in the last days(Heb 1:2). WE are also in the last hour(I Jn 2:18), but God is patient, not wishing any to perish( 2 Pet 3:9)

I would argue that the terms stars, mood, and sun better refer to the conditions within religion where the sun of Divine guidance has been dimmed, the Holy Teachings of Jesus have been obscured and corrupted, and many of the saints and leaders of Christianity of this age have fallen into disrepute.

You don't know for certain that the ones you call saints and leaders of Christianity were Christians. We have always had false prophets and false teachers and according to parable of the wheat and the tares, some are in the church.

 

[capumetu]

Jesus willingly came down and offered his flesh in our behalf. The Bible teaches us that God resurrected him. He was resurrected in the spirit, back to his life of what he was prior, and because of his sacrifice he was granted the #2 position in heaven, sitting at Jehovah's right hand.

capumetu @yours.com no space after u

 

[BilliardsBall]

With all that evidence it should be very easy to convince me. I'm a reasonable person



They have been preached to all the nations though....

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14



I would argue that the terms stars, mood, and sun better refer to the conditions within religion where the sun of Divine guidance has been dimmed, the Holy Teachings of Jesus have been obscured and corrupted, and many of the saints and leaders of Christianity of this age have fallen into disrepute.

The word is not best rendered nations but peoples, but if it helps, they found tribes last month who are yet to hear the gospel . . . but yes, Christ is coming soon.

I have no idea where you learned that poor Christian doctrines is the reference of Revelation's best interpretation, but I can tell you concretely there have been poor doctrine since the days of the apostles, and even Paul warned of apocrypha going out under his name as author.

The best way to understand Revelation is literal. It is, after all, almost 65% near-direct quotations of OT prophecy.

 

[ensnaturae]

Do you think the myth may have any meaning?

Myth or 'reality'....doesn't make an enormous difference!. For anyone who knows and "sees" the events and circumstances that were the whole 'story'?...anyone who recognises that conscious part of their...being..? (Its hard for me to put into new words!)..that is a reflection of the life and love of JC...Its inevitable that the 'resurrection' is seen and felt as *absolutely real.*. It is I think or will be..eventually expressed in scientific/psychological terms as a kind of transference? I and I..? Behold . the Man or.. Woman.. (Or whole person)..
The ONE...as "I" am one, and you are also ..one ...'with god'. This state of consciousness, of 'knowing' isn't something taught. But realised by anyone searching for an own, clear truth. Can you say, of your self "I am the way"...as Jesus could? When you can say that, you will know what it means to be reborn. Resurrected. There is just one of each of us, with god...... I add an extra thought!
The " miraculous" aspect, of this is...that this truth was known so long ago, and the real or mythological life of Christ, presented, somehow, in such a way that it continues..can't be stopped. The more it is suppressed or attacked, ridiculed, forbidden ...the stronger it grows! Its like life itself. An analogy of the real life, of everyman. Including you and I.

 

[CG Didymus]

It may be vague for you today... but apparently it wasn't vague at all for the people of their time. It certainly wasn't vague for me at age 28.

If it wasn't at least a little vague, why didn't all Jews know for a fact that Jesus was their Messiah? And now, if it's not vague, why don't people realize that Baha'u'llah is the "return" of Jesus and become Baha'is?

 

[CG Didymus]

Thank you. I always enjoy hearing the insights and perspective of my Christian brothers and sisters regardless of differences. I am a Baha'i and of the Holy Bible, Abdu'l-Baha had this to say:

THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God.

Bahá'í Reference Library - ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, Pages 17-18

Not to mention: It is allegory. It's not for today. It's been misinterpreted. Especially the NT, there is no physical hell... or some evil angel named Satan. Jesus didn't physically rise from the dead. There is no Trinity etc. etc... Which makes it virtually useless. So don't say: "Oh the Bible is so spectacular." "I love reading it daily for inspiration." "It is filled with so much truth" Really?

So after becoming a Baha'i, why would a person want to read and study an out-dated Book? Now if you said: "It was mythological stories about a people and their God. People wrote it. People interpreted it and many took it why too literal." Between the lines, I get the feeling... that is what you're really saying.

 

[CG Didymus]

With all that evidence it should be very easy to convince me. I'm a reasonable person...

I got a feeling the empty tomb is going to be part of it. Only problem, you got each gospel telling the story of the empty tomb different? Mary Magdalene was the only one in each story. So can we trust the gospel writers? Where did they get their information? None, except John was there? And he and Peter left and then in that version, Mary sees and talks to Mary? How does John know this? Did he get from Mary? If so, where did the other writers get their information, because it's different than John's.

So an empty tomb, no body, then they see the "risen" Jesus. To the Baha'is, where the allegory in this? They presented it as an actual event. If you say they are all making it up, great. Or, you go through those last pages in the gospels and show me the allegory in it all.

Never mind, I know exactly how it goes. "Mary came to the tomb and the stone of unbelief was lifted from her heart." "The veils were taken away from Thomas' eyes and he saw and felt the wounds of his dead Lord... and at that moment believed and went home and wrote his gospel, but misplaced the manuscript and it was not found until many, many years later."

 

[Dawnofhope]

I got a feeling the empty tomb is going to be part of it. Only problem, you got each gospel telling the story of the empty tomb different? Mary Magdalene was the only one in each story. So can we trust the gospel writers? Where did they get their information? None, except John was there? And he and Peter left and then in that version, Mary sees and talks to Mary? How does John know this? Did he get from Mary? If so, where did the other writers get their information, because it's different than John's.

Sometimes the cat chases his tail

We have the story of Jesus being preached by the disciples with great energy and enthusiasm spreading the message far and wide. It wasn't until many years after the life of Jesus that the first Gospels are written down.
They were written to inspire the faithful, not to provide a detailed historical record so historians of future generations would be academically assisted.
John 20:31

So an empty tomb, no body, then they see the "risen" Jesus. To the Baha'is, where the allegory in this? They presented it as an actual event. If you say they are all making it up, great. Or, you go through those last pages in the gospels and show me the allegory in it all.

Never mind, I know exactly how it goes. "Mary came to the tomb and the stone of unbelief was lifted from her heart." "The veils were taken away from Thomas' eyes and he saw and felt the wounds of his dead Lord... and at that moment believed and went home and wrote his gospel, but misplaced the manuscript and it was not found until many, many years later."

Its a great story, isn't it?

 

[MansFriend]

Did Jesus physically rise from the dead or this an allegorical story?

Perhaps its both and maybe neither?

What is the best way of understanding this core Christian belief?

All text ultimately speaks of something that is real.
The question is do we fully decipher it to its deepest meaning?
Even if Jesus was revived back to physical life, there is also a deeper meaning.

What I have come to understand is Jesus brought a restoration of the higher laws that the Children of Israel rejected anciently.
Because of their rejection of the higher laws they were put on a system of lesser carnal laws and commandments.

This is why one of the most important things he tended to was to give them the means to understand how to transform to the higher laws. And, by doing this, it was like raising all of these people from the dead. They passed from spiritual death to spiritual life.

Each aspect of the carnal law was transformed to its higher spiritual law.
So, for example, the prohibition on adultery was elevated to a prohibition on lust in general. The prohibition on killing was elevated to a prohibition of being hateful or angered. By showing that example, then everyone could look at all of the carnal laws and apply the same method of transformation and create and entirely higher level of society. All those who accepted the teachings of Jesus and received his disciples stepped up to living these higher laws. In so doing, they made of themselves fit tabernacles for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. When people received the Word and accepted it and repented of all of their sins then they would be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. It is these ordinances of the higher Melchizedek Priesthood that Jesus re-introduced to the children of Israel that they had not yet had access to as a general society. Thus, when the Holy Ghost came to dwell in them it was like them raising up from spiritual death to spiritual life.

So, the people being resurrected were the converts to Christianity who once were dead but now they were alive.

Also, the physical aspect of this is, because it was the Spirit of Jesus that was being perpetuated and preached, His body was now composed of the members who were being converted. This is why Paul said that the brethren should understand that they were literally the members of the body of Christ, of His flesh and of His bone. The manner and means by which Jesus Christ was immortalized in a physical sense with a new resurrected body of flesh and bone is by way of the preaching of the disciples and by gaining adherents who accepted the ordinance of the laying on of hands to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This gave to them spiritual life and it gave to the Holy Spirit access to the physical member as a tabernacle. It's like a symbiotic relationship.

 

[CG Didymus]

Sometimes the cat chases his tail

We have the story of Jesus being preached by the disciples with great energy and enthusiasm spreading the message far and wide. It wasn't until many years after the life of Jesus that the first Gospels are written down.
They were written to inspire the faithful, not to provide a detailed historical record so historians of future generations would be academically assisted.
John 20:31


Its a great story, isn't it?

From the NIV version:
Luke 1 1-3

1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

Acts 1 1-3 1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

Acts 2 29-32

29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it...

I don't know, but it sounds like Luke was trying to give a detailed account. In Acts 1 Luke says that Jesus "gave many convincing proofs that he was alive"? And in Acts 2 that is Peter at Pentecost saying those things. Hmmm, "raised to life"? I wonder what all that means? Gotta be symbolic right? Those silly follows that didn't catch that and took it too literal.

 

[Dawnofhope]

From the NIV version:
Luke 1 1-3

1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

Acts 1 1-3 1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

Acts 2 29-32

29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it...

I don't know, but it sounds like Luke was trying to give a detailed account. In Acts 1 Luke says that Jesus "gave many convincing proofs that he was alive"? And in Acts 2 that is Peter at Pentecost saying those things. Hmmm, "raised to life"? I wonder what all that means? Gotta be symbolic right? Those silly follows that didn't catch that and took it too literal.

So Luke, who wasn't a witness but heard the preaching of eye witnesses (probably Paul given Luke was allegedly a gentile), was convinced that Jesus physically rose from the dead (his body did not decay, he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead), raised to life for 40 days (note the symbolism of 40 throughout the bible as a time of testing ie the Hebrews in the desert with Moses and Jesus prior to His ministry), taken up to heaven (? through the stratosphere unless you want to take it metaphorically) to sit on His heavenly throne.

Must be a physical resurrection! Right!?

 

[Dawnofhope]

All text ultimately speaks of something that is real.
The question is do we fully decipher it to its deepest meaning?
Even if Jesus was revived back to physical life, there is also a deeper meaning.

What I have come to understand is Jesus brought a restoration of the higher laws that the Children of Israel rejected anciently.
Because of their rejection of the higher laws they were put on a system of lesser carnal laws and commandments.

This is why one of the most important things he tended to was to give them the means to understand how to transform to the higher laws. And, by doing this, it was like raising all of these people from the dead. They passed from spiritual death to spiritual life.

Each aspect of the carnal law was transformed to its higher spiritual law.
So, for example, the prohibition on adultery was elevated to a prohibition on lust in general. The prohibition on killing was elevated to a prohibition of being hateful or angered. By showing that example, then everyone could look at all of the carnal laws and apply the same method of transformation and create and entirely higher level of society. All those who accepted the teachings of Jesus and received his disciples stepped up to living these higher laws. In so doing, they made of themselves fit tabernacles for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. When people received the Word and accepted it and repented of all of their sins then they would be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. It is these ordinances of the higher Melchizedek Priesthood that Jesus re-introduced to the children of Israel that they had not yet had access to as a general society. Thus, when the Holy Ghost came to dwell in them it was like them raising up from spiritual death to spiritual life.

So, the people being resurrected were the converts to Christianity who once were dead but now they were alive.

Also, the physical aspect of this is, because it was the Spirit of Jesus that was being perpetuated and preached, His body was now composed of the members who were being converted. This is why Paul said that the brethren should understand that they were literally the members of the body of Christ, of His flesh and of His bone. The manner and means by which Jesus Christ was immortalized in a physical sense with a new resurrected body of flesh and bone is by way of the preaching of the disciples and by gaining adherents who accepted the ordinance of the laying on of hands to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This gave to them spiritual life and it gave to the Holy Spirit access to the physical member as a tabernacle. It's like a symbiotic relationship.

I like the connections you have made here. It appears you have been prayerfully meditating on the mysteries of the many Holy verses in the bible. It is important to say at this stage that I, like you am exploring the mysteries enshrined in the sacred writings to pertain to Jesus Christ. I am a Baha'i.

 

[Dawnofhope]

So after becoming a Baha'i, why would a person want to read and study an out-dated Book?

I don't think its outdated at all any more than the Hebrew Bible is to the Christians. It is the sacred text that most of my coreligionists in my country are familiar with, so I like to study it and converse with them about its mysteries.

 

[psychoslice]

Jesus willingly came down and offered his flesh in our behalf. The Bible teaches us that God resurrected him. He was resurrected in the spirit, back to his life of what he was prior, and because of his sacrifice he was granted the #2 position in heaven, sitting at Jehovah's right hand.

capumetu @yours.com no space after u

Woo, and you truly know that is true ?.

 

[psychoslice]

I don't think its outdated at all any more than the Hebrew Bible is to the Christians. It is the sacred text that most of my coreligionists in my country are familiar with, so I like to study it and converse with them about its mysteries.

To me personally I think its strange that we put out dated scriptures as being truth, like most of that belongs in the past, for god sake we are living in the 21st century, and yet we put that in front of all we know today, weird ?.

 

[Dawnofhope]

To me personally I think its strange that we put out dated scriptures as being truth, like most of that belongs in the past, for god sake we are living in the 21st century, and yet we put that in front of all we know today, weird ?.

Sometimes life is stranger than fiction.

Perhaps there is a new scripture that speaks of the age we currently?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Myth or 'reality'.... An analogy of the real life, of everyman. Including you and I.

I like that. Through Christ's resurrection we are all resurrected....spiritually that is.

 

[psychoslice]

Sometimes life is stranger than fiction.

Perhaps there is a new scripture that speaks of the age we currently?

There are many, I even have my own.