You're no Christian

[Katzpur]

No, they are not Christians based on what the error they are teaching about history or about who God really is.

And maybe they don't even believe the things Sonny is telling you they believe.

Because you are a Bible believing Christian and I am a Catholic guided Christian our answers are sure to disagree on matters such as this. More prominent than any other differences, imo, is our belief in purgatory, whereas, I assume you believe when one dies they will quickly find themselves in heaven or in hell. Is that true?

I'm not surprised to hear you say you're a Catholic. Nine times out of ten, when I run into a Christian who genuinely acts like he's a follower of Jesus Christ, he turns out to be Catholic. And here's something I'll bet you didn't know: Mormonism has considerably more in common with Catholicism than it does with Protestantism.

By the way, did you see my post #237? It was primarily directed to you.

 

[savagewind]

Uhhh, He did say that. And the implication is throughout the NT and some places in OT.
Go into all the world and preach the gospel (Mt 28:19/20; Mk 16:15/16; Lk 15:10; 19:10; 24:47; Jn 15:8,27; 17:20; 20:21-23; Heb 7:25).

Preaching and making are not the same. Do you want proof?

 

[savagewind]

Not sure I get ur meaning. Please, explain. To help you remember, I said this (that caused you to say that),
That is the exact kind of thinking the cults and false churches use to get started and to say they are Christians. The Bible is the standard. If one opposes the Bible one is not a Christian, by definition even.

You say, "the Bible is the standard". The meaning of standard is this: "a level of achievement". What is your definition?

There are scriptures which are on point, imo. But, just because some things in the bible sound like they are from God, those do not qualify all of it.

 

[savagewind]

I didn't make this stuff up out of thin air. This is what Christianity teaches. However, I will say Jesus was considerably more mature at 12 than any of us after college and 80 years of life. He was Almighty God in the flesh (incarnate). Also, this is a debatable issue. The Mormons say the age of accountability (when a person is old enuff to know what sin is) is 8.

And maybe you can see a problem with putting an age on FAITH?

 

[savagewind]

True. The Bible says as much when it says that those of the world are wiser, in their day, than are Christians. We call that 'worldly wisdom' and it is true. When I went west as a young man and met some California dudes (snicker, snicker) they taught me things I had never even heard of, let alone seen/done. So, ur right. But, nonetheless, Jesus was 12 speaking to the Jewish leaders and asking them questions about Jewish law. That is why we say 12 is the age. No ulterior motives in that.

Jesus was wise at age twelve. Amen.

 

[savagewind]

Uhh, not from dirt. I've done my best to inform folks of what Jesus/Bible says. I have helped some leave cults. But whatever my efforts it is God's Spirit that, in the end, calls people to Jesus- just as the Bible states.

I agree it is GOD making disciples, even if the Bible says it is for people to do. Have you considered that the scripture might be wrong?

 

[savagewind]

We are to live like we actually believe what the Bible teaches.

I think that is incorrect. I think that a disciple should live as though Christ is leading. YOU teach that we should live as though the Bible is leading.

But there is, an old adage, better people than you and me in hell today. By that I mean, there are a lot of people who, for whatever reason, can and do help others with a smile. There is more to being a Christian that simply being kind and good. To your point, the light that is in us is Jesus Christ and Him crucified for the world. We are to tell folks the good news that Jesus loves them and wants them to know Him. Then again, there are the cults/false churches that do the same thing. This is where personal responsibility for your own soul kicks in. Study to know which religion has the right Jesus bc Jesus said, many will come saying I am the Christ and deceive many. But you will know them by their works (your study proves their motives).

I do not believe there are better people than me in hell.

 

[savagewind]

Jesus, while in the flesh, was not as great as God who is in the Spirit. Clearly, Jesus had to lay down d when He became man. For ex.- He couldn't be everywhere at the same time due to the restrictions of the flesh. He felt cold, hunger, pain and so forth. But Colossians tell us (chap. 1/2) that Jesus is God. So, we are doing the work of God through the man of Jesus. He is called both the Son of God and the son of man for right reasons.


Men were inspired to write the Bible, for sure. And, I've found a couple mistakes. Nothing that alters or changes either the meaning or the message of the Bible. It certainly isn't so corrupt and mistranslated, as one cult teaches, that it can't be trusted at all. In fact, that church goes on and accepts the Bible as written. That is confusing- but most haven't done the research I have so they don't know about the contradictory teachings.

I have found mistakes that change the meaning. One is Matthew 28:19. It is NOT any person's duty to make another person believe and be led by Christ.

 

[Valerian]

I'm not surprised to hear you say you're a Catholic. Nine times out of ten, when I run into a Christian who genuinely acts like he's a follower of Jesus Christ, he turns out to be Catholic. And here's something I'll bet you didn't know: Mormonism has considerably more in common with Catholicism than it does with Protestantism.

No, I am not aware of what similarities there are between Mormonism and Catholicism not shared with Protestantism, only because I have too many other priorities in my faith to concern myself with.

As to your post #237:
Yes, I agree, that many different people can carelessly or purposefully present an account of what some other religion teaches and it can be extremely erroneous. I am sure I fell for this more than once. But Scripture does say (somewhere) that “security lies in the counsel of the many.” So I imagine if I read it or see it reported by rather trusting sources in various places and at various times in history I would be inclined to accept it as fact.

You said >>> I personally believe that God cares more about how we live our lives than He cares if we could score 100% on a multiple-choice test regarding Christian doctrines.

Actually, I agree with that statement as well, by and large. I base that on Matthew 25:31-46 as well as on what Catholicism emphasizes. Plus passages like “faith without works is dead” and “in the end what remains is faith, hope and charity, and greatest of these is charity.”

Catholics, by instruction and theological understanding, heavily preach that man shall not ever judge another soul. Nor shall that man ever say that person deserves to be cast into hell, or the like. So do not expect me to violate that command. We do not know where another comes from, their tribal origins, what opportunities they were given or not given, etc.

And I could expound on all that. But because of my Catholic teaching I truly believe any person of any faith or no faith can be allowed into heaven. I believe the good works that Mormons do will will greatly benefit their standing with God. I believe in heaven and hell, but I also believe that many or most souls go to purgatory when they die before they are allowed into the kingdom. There is where God’s justice and mercy are made perfect. Revelations says “nothing defiled shall enter the kingdom.” And Jesus may very well have died for our sins and saved us from hell, but we cannot make light of this eternal gift and act like selfish little devils until we get there. We will first be made pure. (And to anyone reading, yes, it most definitely is Scriptural.)

 

[savagewind]

When God is speaking there are no mistakes in the Bible. When men speak, it is a given, there may be some. But any mistakes made have never affected the meaning or message of the Gospels

Can you admit that this is your personal opinion and that your opinion might be wrong?

I think that any mistakes, and there are some very serious mistakes, can be undone in your mind by the power of God, so therefore it actually CAN BE considered the right meaning after that, but only if you obey The Spirit of GOD and NOT the words of men.

If you lean on the opinion that any scripture can't be wrong, then The Spirit can not help you find the right meaning.

 

[savagewind]

Can God tell you anything different than what you believe God is telling you?

 

[savagewind]

If indeed The Spirit can't do something for you, you make yourself over it when really you are most definitely under it.

 

[savagewind]

If you lean on the opinion that any scripture can't be wrong, then The Spirit can not help you find the right meaning.

I think this is called a fact.

 

[lovesong]

I'd be interested in seeing a couple of those. Will you post some for us?

I really don't need to be doing that. Not only can you easily just look it up, but if you've read the bible you'd know that it happens. I'm not using this as a way of saying the bible isn't valid (obviously I believe that it isn't, but it's validity is completely irrelevant to my point) or really anything negative about it, in fact is really had nothing to do with the core of my argument at all, it was just a point about how figuring out what is really against the bible can be tricky. If you really can't think of any times the bible has told the same story in different ways though, let me point you to what are arguably two of the most important stories in it, the story of Adam and Eve, and the birth of Jesus. Both stories are told twice, both are told differently. Now, what does this have to do with my argument at all?

 

[paarsurrey]

Christianity was founded by Paul not by Jesus.
Therefore there is not a single denomination or even a single individual among the Christianity worthy to be called Christian, if they mean from that they follow Jesus. Jesus himself was never baptized as a Christian, as he never founded it.
Jesus believed only in ONE-GOD, the Christianity people believe in Trinity, so they are not one with Jesus.
Please correct me if I am wrong. Please
No intention to disrespect any denomination or person, please
Regards

 

[Sonny]

Its all in the spirit of how you do it. Do you call them out in a way that inspires an open friendly discussion, or to belittle them? Makes all the difference. I have had some wonderful discussions with people who feel very different than me religiously and learned a lot from them.

For me, the best way to discuss God is to ask them questions. I have found, sadly, that most people don't know much about their church or belief system. They take things at face value when someone they know or trust tells them it is true. This is why there are so many cults and false religions. Most people want to talk but few want to answer questions that paints their church in a bad light, even when it is true. Me? I like to follow the facts- whatever they say, wherever they lead. It must be verifiable evidence. I am a firm believer in truth. I never back up or back down when I am right. Show me I'm not right and I change.

 

[Sonny]

I've found that if done honestly and without malice, critiquing another's religious beliefs, interpretations, practices, etc. by church or denomonation is quite acceptable. Mormons and JWs in particular have often been taken to task by those who've found fault with their beliefs and practices. In turn, Mormons and JWs have done the same. Just be nice about it. .

Amen!
However, being nice also means speaking the truth (in love)- but speaking it nonetheless. When the truth is exposed or revealed most cults accuse folks of bashing or hater or anti. The truth is neither hateful not bashing, it is simply true. Everyone ought to understand that...but they don't.

 

[Sonny]

as I said before, keep it nice and don't get personal.

Just so you know, it is really hard, for most churches/people, to keep it nice when they hear how rotten their church has been or is. Take for ex. the Spanish Inquisition. How does one speak of the horrors that church did w/o offending its members? Can't be done. But, the atrocious acts must be mentioned to expose flaws and as a reminder of what a church must never do.

 

[Sonny]

It does not matter too much about what I, you, or any other random guy thinks concerning a or the church.

The biblical church is composed of all those who have accepted Christ's sacrifice, admitted our sin, and been born again. I have no idea exactly who those people are, no mortal does. It does not depend on what denomination, what obscure dogma, or what ceremonies we adhere to. Christ knows who every single person who belongs to him is. I can make some informed judgments based on the bible, observations, and personal experience but this side of the dirt I will never know for certain exactly who is or is not a Christian. However the things we can determine include whether this action or that idea is consistent with Christianity or not, but even then there is some uncertainty.

That is a spot on post! Good job. I wish everyone thot that way. The good and bad churches would be known by all. Instead, the innocent, gullible and easily duped end up in some horrible churches. Even within my own religion, Christianity, there are some real nuts cases. Since I'm speaking of my own religion I assume I can say these things- Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen, Robert Schuller, ad infinitum, ad nausea. These frauds, like the cults, must be exposed. We help folks in and out of them when we expose them. *Explanation needed*- we expose a group by simply stating (repeating) what their own leaders taught, printed and published (how else would we know what they believe if they had not published it for us to see?). Doing that, as outrageous as some of their teachings/beliefs really were/are is offensive to lots of people. But, remember, we are only a messenger repeating their church's/leader's own 'words'.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The label Christian means follower of Christ. If you believe Christ is real, not fictitious, is divine and master, and author of a book, follow it. Follow it closely. If you don't follow it closely, you are following your church leadership but not the Christ. A Christian follows Christ. They call them "Mormons" because they adhere to teachings of the angel Moroni et al!

Every denomination has its own special label... even the denominations that insist that they're "non-denominational".