Baptism with no purpose, any takers?

[atpollard]

Thank you. What view does this camp hold?

From the Southern Baptist Faith and Message:

"
VII. Baptism and the Lord's Supper
Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord's Supper.

The Lord's Supper is a symbolic act of obedience whereby members of the church, through partaking of the bread and the fruit of the vine, memorialize the death of the Redeemer and anticipate His second coming.

Matthew 3:13-17; 26:26-30; 28:19-20; Mark 1:9-11; 14:22-26; Luke 3:21-22; 22:19-20; John 3:23; Acts 2:41-42; 8:35-39; 16:30-33; 20:7; Romans 6:3-5; 1 Corinthians 10:16,21; 11:23-29; Colossians 2:12."

 

[e.r.m.]

From the Southern Baptist Faith and Message:

"
VII. Baptism and the Lord's Supper
Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord's Supper.

The Lord's Supper is a symbolic act of obedience whereby members of the church, through partaking of the bread and the fruit of the vine, memorialize the death of the Redeemer and anticipate His second coming.

Matthew 3:13-17; 26:26-30; 28:19-20; Mark 1:9-11; 14:22-26; Luke 3:21-22; 22:19-20; John 3:23; Acts 2:41-42; 8:35-39; 16:30-33; 20:7; Romans 6:3-5; 1 Corinthians 10:16,21; 11:23-29; Colossians 2:12."

Thank you.

Since the Lord’s supper memorialized the death of the Redeemer, why would this need to be done twice with baptism? Jesus said to do the Lord's supper in remembrance of Him. No one in the Bible ever instructed to be baptized in Jesus's name as an act of obedience to symbolize the believer's faith in...
No one in the Bible ever instructed anyone to be baptized as a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. These purposes were never assigned to water baptism in Jesus's name.

I understand though that you're just stating the Southern Baptist position. Thank you for doing so.

 

[atpollard]

Thank you.

Since the Lord’s supper memorialized the death of the Redeemer, why would this need to be done twice with baptism? Jesus said to do the Lord's supper in remembrance of Him. No one in the Bible ever instructed to be baptized in Jesus's name as an act of obedience to symbolize the believer's faith in...
No one in the Bible ever instructed anyone to be baptized as a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. These purposes were never assigned to water baptism in Jesus's name.

I understand though that you're just stating the Southern Baptist position. Thank you for doing so.

"Already and not yet."

I know that seems like a strange answer, but let me explain from the Southern Baptist point of view. Salvation, like many things to do with God has an 'already and not yet' character to it. From the moment of salvation, we are a new creation. We are justified. Our sins are as far as the east is from the west. Yet, we must be honest and admit that we do not suddenly live completely sinless lives, free from all temptation. As we live, day by day and year by year and trial by trial, we are slowly being transformed. Sanctification is the big fancy term, but we all know it when we see it in our lives. "Lord, I am not where I need to be, but thank you, I am not where I once was." or "God loves me just as he finds me, but he loves me too much to leave me there." Looking forward, I have a promise that when He calls me home, I will be fully perfected. Thus the process of washing away my sin is "already and not yet".

I have crucified the old nature, but that is an already and not yet reality in my life. I have died to the old self, but that is also an already, but not yet reality in my life. I have been raised a new creation, but that is an already, and not yet reality in my life. Thus the inner reality of what God is doing in me is past, present, future and eternity in its scope and character. Why then should we not see the outward symbolic confession and public proclamation of that reality as being past (in Jesus), present (in the Baptism by immersion), future (in the ongoing Sanctification of the Holy Spirit) and eternal (in our ultimate Glorification).

The Southern Baptists take this Baptism thing very seriously. Not salvific, but not something to be handled carelessly either. If they Baptize you, you are darn sure going to know what you are doing and why you are doing it. I hope that explains their perspective a little clearer. I found it fascinating to see someone place such an emphasis on the symbolism inherent in God's word and the pictures that God painted with his ordinances.

 

[e.r.m.]

"Already and not yet."

I know that seems like a strange answer, but let me explain from the Southern Baptist point of view. Salvation, like many things to do with God has an 'already and not yet' character to it. From the moment of salvation, we are a new creation. We are justified. Our sins are as far as the east is from the west. Yet, we must be honest and admit that we do not suddenly live completely sinless lives, free from all temptation. As we live, day by day and year by year and trial by trial, we are slowly being transformed. Sanctification is the big fancy term, but we all know it when we see it in our lives. "Lord, I am not where I need to be, but thank you, I am not where I once was." or "God loves me just as he finds me, but he loves me too much to leave me there." Looking forward, I have a promise that when He calls me home, I will be fully perfected. Thus the process of washing away my sin is "already and not yet".

I have crucified the old nature, but that is an already and not yet reality in my life. I have died to the old self, but that is also an already, but not yet reality in my life. I have been raised a new creation, but that is an already, and not yet reality in my life. Thus the inner reality of what God is doing in me is past, present, future and eternity in its scope and character.

Good explanation, thank you.

Why then should we not see the outward symbolic confession and public proclamation of that reality as being past (in Jesus), present (in the Baptism by immersion), future (in the ongoing Sanctification of the Holy Spirit) and eternal (in our ultimate Glorification).

1. Romans 6:5 KJV For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Romans 6:5 NASB For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

Romans 6:5 NIV For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Romanos 6:5 RV60 Porque si fuimos plantados juntamente con él en la semejanza de su muerte (similarity of his death), así también lo seremos en la de su resurrección;

The extent of what the Bible says on the matter is that there is a likeness between water baptism and the d,b,r. There happens to be a likeness. It never goes so far as to say this likeness likeness or similarity is the reason for or drive behind the baptism. It's more like unexpected side effect. Notice that, in the writing, Paul only mentions the likeness in passing. It is the by grace alone, though faith alone community, beginning with Zwingli and Calvin, who have expanded this incidental likeness, turning into baptism's actual purpose.

2. The Bible never turns baptism into a outward symbolic confession and public proclamation. This conclusion is reached only by concatenation and logical deduction according to the belief that salvation comes before baptism. Only because of that, they were forced to devise this alternate purpose for baptism. This is why there was never any actual talk of public confession or proclamation before Zwingli and Calvin.

The Southern Baptists take this Baptism thing very seriously. Not salvific, but not something to be handled carelessly either. If they Baptize you, you are darn sure going to know what you are doing and why you are doing it.

It's good that at least their reason is explained instead of just because God said so.

I hope that explains their perspective a little clearer. I found it fascinating to see someone place such an emphasis on the symbolism inherent in God's word and the pictures that God painted with his ordinances.

Thank you for the explanation. I find disturbing that they place more emphasis on the likeness of baptism to the d,b,r than is provided in the actual scriptures. Everyone should find it disturbing.

 

[atpollard]

It's good that at least their reason is explained instead of just because God said so.

Thank you for the explanation. I find disturbing that they place more emphasis on the likeness of baptism to the d,b,r than is provided in the actual scriptures. Everyone should find it disturbing.

I once set people on fire for a living, it takes a little more to disturb me.

I can make a case from scripture that baptism (with water) is not essential for salvation. Baptism into the Holy Spirit, which is a spiritual work of God and thus not subject to any man boasting, is absolutely essential.

The reason for baptism by water, when balanced against Romans 10:9 (That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.) would seem to make "because God said so" closer to the truth than not as the reason for baptism.

I welcome correction from scripture.

 

[e.r.m.]

I once set people on fire for a living, it takes a little more to disturb me.

Ahaha! Touche'.

I can make a case from scripture that baptism (with water) is not essential for salvation.

Paul or another Bible author would need to be the one to make a case against it. They didn't.

Baptism into the Holy Spirit, which is a spiritual work of God and thus not subject to any man boasting, is absolutely essential.

Namaan did not boast of his 7 dunks in the Jordan River. He boasted about God.

The reason for baptism by water, when balanced against Romans 10:9 (That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.) would seem to make "because God said so" closer to the truth than not as the reason for baptism. I welcome correction from scripture.

Why did Paul who wrote Romans 9, say his sins needed to be washed away after he had already confessed Jesus with his mouth and believed in his heart? Acts 22:8-10, 16.

 

[moorea944]

I once set people on fire for a living, it takes a little more to disturb me.

I can make a case from scripture that baptism (with water) is not essential for salvation. Baptism into the Holy Spirit, which is a spiritual work of God and thus not subject to any man boasting, is absolutely essential.

The reason for baptism by water, when balanced against Romans 10:9 (That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.) would seem to make "because God said so" closer to the truth than not as the reason for baptism.

I welcome correction from scripture.

I can make a case from scripture that baptism (with water) is not essential for salvation.

Actually, it is. Peter even tells us that. Jesus even tells us that. Salvation is a process. There are many required things that are required for salvation.

The reason for baptism by water, when balanced against Romans 10:9 (That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.) would seem to make "because God said so" closer to the truth than not as the reason for baptism.

Confessing by mouth and or believing is just a start. But it is not the only thing for salvation. IF... you just believe that salvation is "just" confessing or just belief, you have to throw out all of the over words by Jesus and the apostles. Which the world does anyhow.....

What the bible doesnt say is... The "ONLY" thing you have to do is just believe. Scripture does not say that. But is says alot of "other" things about salvation, with confessing only just one of them. Belief and confessing is a start. But it is NOT the only thing we have to do for salvation.

People want instant salvation. They dont want to do anything in their life. I"m saved, so I can just go out and still live my life that way I see fit. Doesnt work like that.

What does Jesus tell us? "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Does that sound like we are just saved on belief?

 

[atpollard]

Why did Paul who wrote Romans 9, say his sins needed to be washed away after he had already confessed Jesus with his mouth and believed in his heart? Acts 22:8-10, 16.

Why does Romans 10:9 not say "and be baptized"?

 

[atpollard]

Actually, it is. Peter even tells us that. Jesus even tells us that. Salvation is a process. There are many required things that are required for salvation.



Confessing by mouth and or believing is just a start. But it is not the only thing for salvation. IF... you just believe that salvation is "just" confessing or just belief, you have to throw out all of the over words by Jesus and the apostles. Which the world does anyhow.....

What the bible doesnt say is... The "ONLY" thing you have to do is just believe. Scripture does not say that. But is says alot of "other" things about salvation, with confessing only just one of them. Belief and confessing is a start. But it is NOT the only thing we have to do for salvation.

People want instant salvation. They dont want to do anything in their life. I"m saved, so I can just go out and still live my life that way I see fit. Doesnt work like that.

What does Jesus tell us? "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Does that sound like we are just saved on belief?

Respectfully, people SAY lots of things. Do you have some specific scriptures in mind?

Romans make it abundantly clear that our salvation is NOT one of works. Thus the 'reward' according to 'his work' must be above and beyond salvation.

 

[atpollard]

What does Jesus tell us? "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Does that sound like we are just saved on belief?

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Here the concept of work, and building, and having your work tested, and reward are explained in more detail. Notice verse 15 ... "the builder will suffer loss (of reward?) yet will be saved". So work is linked to reward, but it is NOT linked to salvation.

 

[e.r.m.]

Why does Romans 10:9 not say "and be baptized"?

Answer first, then ask your question.

 

[atpollard]

Why did Paul who wrote Romans 9, say his sins needed to be washed away after he had already confessed Jesus with his mouth and believed in his heart? Acts 22:8-10, 16.

Acts 22:12-16 “A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I was able to see him. Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard. And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’ "

Like I said, "Because God said so" is a lot closer to being the correct answer than an incorrect answer from the scripture that I read, which is why I invited correction from scripture rather than 'opinions' of other believers. In this case (Saul's conversion), Ananias was sent, specifically by God, to deliver a message specifically for Saul. That message included the special instruction that Saul was to "get up" (so I presume that Saul got up). Saul was to "be baptized" (so I presume that Saul was baptized). Saul was to "call on his name" (so I presume that Saul did call on Jesus name).

Paul got baptized because God said to (through Ananias).


Now, why does Romans 10:9 not say "and be baptized" if EVERYONE must be baptized to be saved? Furthermore, if this matter is so vital to our salvation, why is it not clearly spelled out in many places in great detail. Scripture leaves absolutely no doubt about the need for repenting, or Faith in Christ, or His Death, burial and resurrection ... all of which are essential to understand for salvation. Why then must we read between the lines on baptism and debate sprinkling babies vs dunking adults if it is required for salvation?

I suspect the answer is that it is not required. It is like the imagery of the parallel between immersion and D,B,R ... just something mentioned in minimal detail because it is important, but not essential. I am still open to being shown otherwise by scripture in context.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

When I was a little older; I've been baptized so many times. LOL.
I went for various reasons but as far as baptism goes or saying the sinners prayer. I often did it because it made some people feel good about themselves. I was like I've already been baptized.
But I didn't tell them that.
Later like a 4th time another one wanted to give me a baptism. I said in my heart that I would happily do it for GOD, didn't. But I don't want to do this again and again by every new this or that and I literally felt an arm land on my shoulder. Freaked out; later I told the person no thanks and I started ignoring some of the church. Not in a cold way. Most of that came from the tongues people yada yada yada.

 

[moorea944]

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Here the concept of work, and building, and having your work tested, and reward are explained in more detail. Notice verse 15 ... "the builder will suffer loss (of reward?) yet will be saved". So work is linked to reward, but it is NOT linked to salvation.

I totally agree with you on the fact that we are saved by God's Grace. We dont deserve anything. But..... we need to also do things too. Not just sit on the coach and wait for our salvation. James tells us that i'll show you my faith by my works. Without works..... your faith is dead.

Works does not save us! But faith and works does.

 

[atpollard]

I totally agree with you on the fact that we are saved by God's Grace. We don't deserve anything. But..... we need to also do things too. Not just sit on the coach and wait for our salvation. James tells us that I'll show you my faith by my works. Without works..... your faith is dead.

Works does not save us! But faith and works does.

I really like James. I know a lot of people are critical of the book, but I find James to be a real "where the rubber meets the road" sort of book.

Let me run something past you and get your feedback.

Ezekiel 11:19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

Ephesians 1:13-14 When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

James 4:17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.

So now back to James 2:14-17 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

The question becomes "what is a dead faith?"
It seems to me that the obvious answer is that it is an ineffectual faith. Similar to an idol being a dead "god" as compared to the True and Living "God"!
However, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Is the faith dead, because there are no works (lack of works being the CAUSE of the death) or are there no works because the faith was never alive (lack of works being the RESULT or the death).

Ezekiel 11:19 contains a promise that God will remove your heart of stone (a dead heart, since stones are not alive) and replace it with a heart of flesh (a living heart). Can someone have a dead heart replaced with a living heart and it make no outward change in their life? James 2:17 tells us that if we see no sign of a living heart, they probably still have a dead heart.

Ephesians 1:13-14 promises that along with this new heart, comes the Holy Spirit. Can the third person of the Triune God dwell within you and it make no outward change in your life? James 2:17 tells us that if we see no Fruit of the Holy Spirit, they probably do not have the Holy Spirit within them. They may claim to be alive, but that branch is dead.

Ephesians 2:8-10 start out talking all about HOW we have been saved, and end with the statement that we were created "to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do". First comes saved, then comes the works prepared for you now that you have the heart of flesh and the Holy Spirit and the Grace of Christ to empower you to do the works God has prearranged for you to do. James 2:17 tells us that if we see none of the prearranged works, we should probably be asking some hard questions about this 'alleged' faith that seems to be no faith at all, but a cold dead man-made faith ... just like the cold, dead man-made idols.

James 4:17 even makes it clear that knowing you should be doing good works, and not doing them ... you be sinning! What sort of 'faith' wallows in continuous sin of disobedience by refusing to do what God has equipped, prepared and created you for? A cold dead man-made faith.

 

[GreenKepi]

Baptism is how one obtains the 'Wedding Clothes'. In Matthew 22 - there is the story of the King who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. This king...is portrayed as God. God invites many...but, few accept His offer.There was no excuse for the man who did not have the wedding clothes. In those days, if a person didn't have clothes fit to wear to a wedding, he was given clothes by the family. There was no excuse...all he had to do was ask.

Now we are married to Christ in Baptism; however, many people "still" show up to serve Christ without the "wedding garment" Galatians 3:26-27 tells us how we get the garments..."You are all sons of God through faith in Christ...for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ".

 

[Muffled]

Which scripture did you look up?

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

 

[Muffled]

Baptists are theologically non-homogeneous. They are split between Arminian and Calvinist in their view.
They just agree that you must have faith and confess to be baptized, so babies are disqualified.

I fall in the Reformed/Calvinist camp with the 'Southern Baptist Convention'.

I believe I attended a Reformed Baptist church in Nebraska but we didn't have a baptism while I was there. I was brought up American Baptist which now tends to be quite liberal but at the time I was taught believers baptism. I now attend a SBC church and we recently had a full immersion believers baptism.

 

[Muffled]

Correct.
Correct.

But, you may be making a point I am not getting.

"that would be the higher morality and salvation found with Christianity"

I believe that would not be accomplished by baby baptism. If teaching followed that would work to some extent.

 

[e.r.m.]

Acts 22:12-16 “A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I was able to see him. Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard. And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’ "

Like I said, "Because God said so" is a lot closer to being the correct answer than an incorrect answer from the scripture that I read, which is why I invited correction from scripture rather than 'opinions' of other believers. In this case (Saul's conversion), Ananias was sent, specifically by God, to deliver a message specifically for Saul. That message included the special instruction that Saul was to "get up" (so I presume that Saul got up). Saul was to "be baptized" (so I presume that Saul was baptized). Saul was to "call on his name" (so I presume that Saul did call on Jesus name).

Paul got baptized because God said to (through Ananias).

Do you not fear being called out on your complete omission of
Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’ "

...the crucial "why" he was told to do these things, and egregiously replacing and wash your sins away with your
"Because God said so" is a lot closer to being the correct answer ?

I mean, did you really think somebody wouldn't notice this omission and switcheroo that you did?

Secondly, why we're Paul's sins not yet washed away three days after he did everything in Romans 10:9-10 as accounted for in...?
Acts 22:7-8, 10 I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?' [8] “ 'Who are you, Lord?' I asked. “ 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,' he replied. [10] “ 'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. “ 'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.'


Forgive me on all the bold, I couldn't figure out how to turn it off.

Now, why does Romans 10:9 not say "and be baptized" if EVERYONE must be baptized to be saved? Furthermore, if this matter is so vital to our salvation, why is it not clearly spelled out in many places in great detail. Scripture leaves absolutely no doubt about the need for repenting, or Faith in Christ, or His Death, burial and resurrection ... all of which are essential to understand for salvation. Why then must we read between the lines on baptism and debate sprinkling babies vs dunking adults if it is required for salvation?

Because Paul doesn't have to say every aspect of getting saved in every verse. Paul doesn't even say belief/faith in every salvation verse. It's abominable to even suggest that Paul or anyone has to meet a quota of salvation baptism statements for it to be true. If they have said it once through the Holy Spirit, then it is so. And it is stated considerably more than once. Where on earth did you get this requirement that it must be stated so many times?!

Along the same lines, you can't debate sprinkling babies as it is no where in scripture, not once, and it has to be written there once for it to be true.

I suspect the answer is that it is not required. It is like the imagery of the parallel between immersion and D,B,R ... just something mentioned in minimal detail because it is important, but not essential. I am still open to being shown otherwise by scripture in context.

Your in between the lines theology is more valid to you than explicitly written texts. This is the by faith alone, through faith alone downfall, and only method of justifying (to themselves) teachings that never exist in the Bible.