Baptism with no purpose, any takers?

[Brickjectivity]

Its a recognition of adoption of the entire world along with denial of self and acceptance of being Christ, living Christ's life, answering to the name 'Christ', doing the work of Christ. You will bring Christ's goals to come to pass instead of your own. You are no longer _____ whatever your name was previously. You have been baptized into another name, a permanent name and an immortal one. You are re-purposed to live not for yourself. You are re-made, and you announce it in the ritual of baptism.

Actually, it's only narrators and commentators who say it's an after the fact recognition or symbolic. The scriptures never actually say this themselves.

We are all narrators and commentators, but here are several verses which appear to state, in a fundamental way, what I have only re-stated as a comment. I feel these are compelling testimony as to the nature of baptism and the dedication implied.

Spoiler: 4 verses

• "You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies." 1 Cor 6:19-20
• "So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days." Acts 10:48
• "Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?" 1 Cor 1:13
• "for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." Gal 3:27
• "Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it." Luke 9:23-24

 

[moorea944]

I guess I'll say it that way because Paul does say it. We dont actually die, but we die symbollicaly.

No Paul didn't say that. He didn't say we die symbolically. There's no word 'symbol' anywhere in Romans 6. We don't die physically, our old self dies, our sin dies at baptism.
He said
Romans 6:2, 6-7 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? [6] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [7] for he who has died is freed from sin.

Paul didn't say "You were baptized for the purpose of symbolizing/representing...."

Yes, that's true. But what is this subject "representing"? And how else would you put it?......

"Our old selves was crucified with him"....... I dont remember being crucified, so.... it would have to be somekind of metaphor. Wouldnt you say? Because it's not literal.

 

[atpollard]

Did they say it was just that, or did that church discuss or float a reason for why people there get baptized, or do they just not ever talk about it at all?

Hey E.R.M.,
I hope you are doing well.

Yes they talked about it, but I don't remember them going into depth. My general recollection of their reason was as simple as 'Jesus said to do it', and that was good enough. Looking up their official position, it seems the Church of God (Anderson Indiana) is part of the Wesleyan Holiness Movement (making them classic Arminian in theology) and their official statement "We Believe" says the following about Baptism:

"We believe God calls all people to respond in faith to the gospel of Jesus Christ, whereby they become members of the universal church of God. With Christ as the head, this community is the body of Christ on earth. We understand each local congregation to be an expression of this universal church, and that it is God’s will for each believer to be a committed member of a local congregation.

In obedience to our Lord, we baptize believers by immersion as a sign of death to sin, resurrection to new life in Christ, and incorporation into the mission of the people of God. We celebrate the Lord’s Supper as participation in and proclamation of the death and resurrection of our Lord until he comes. We wash each other’s feet, following Jesus who assumed the role of servant by washing the feet of his disciples. We anoint with oil in the name of the Lord and pray that people may be healed."

Oh the irony never ends.
1. I was baptized as an infant in a Lutheran Church as a compromise between an atheist father and a Roman Catholic mother.

2. I heard the Gospel and was 'saved' by lay Catholics at a Catholic Charismatic Fellowship.

3. I was eventually re-Baptized as a believing adult by immersion in a Wesleyan (Arminian) Church.

4. I first learned about Biblical Precepts from an African Missionary to the United States, then studied in an adult Sunday School Class taught by a Moody Graduate, and later studied Southern Baptist Theology under the Pastor. Reading scripture on my own led me to 4 of the 5 points of Calvinism before I had ever heard of Reformed Theology.

3. So my current Theology is best described (from an online survey) as a 100% match to Reformed Baptist and I worship at a Pentecostal Church.

 

[e.r.m.]

Hey E.R.M.,
I hope you are doing well.

You as well.

Yes they talked about it, but I don't remember them going into depth. My general recollection of their reason was as simple as 'Jesus said to do it', and that was good enough.

Thank you.

Looking up their official position, it seems the Church of God (Anderson Indiana) is part of the Wesleyan Holiness Movement (making them classic Arminian in theology) and their official statement "We Believe" says the following about Baptism:

"We believe God calls all people to respond in faith to the gospel of Jesus Christ, whereby they become members of the universal church of God. With Christ as the head, this community is the body of Christ on earth. We understand each local congregation to be an expression of this universal church, and that it is God’s will for each believer to be a committed member of a local congregation.

In obedience to our Lord, we baptize believers by immersion as a sign of death to sin, resurrection to new life in Christ, and incorporation into the mission of the people of God. We celebrate the Lord’s Supper as participation in and proclamation of the death and resurrection of our Lord until he comes. We wash each other’s feet, following Jesus who assumed the role of servant by washing the feet of his disciples. We anoint with oil in the name of the Lord and pray that people may be healed."

I wonder why they didn't teach you that.

Oh the irony never ends.
1. I was baptized as an infant in a Lutheran Church as a compromise between an atheist father and a Roman Catholic mother.

2. I heard the Gospel and was 'saved' by lay Catholics at a Catholic Charismatic Fellowship.

3. I was eventually re-Baptized as a believing adult by immersion in a Wesleyan (Arminian) Church.

4. I first learned about Biblical Precepts from an African Missionary to the United States, then studied in an adult Sunday School Class taught by a Moody Graduate, and later studied Southern Baptist Theology under the Pastor. Reading scripture on my own led me to 4 of the 5 points of Calvinism before I had ever heard of Reformed Theology.

3. So my current Theology is best described (from an online survey) as a 100% match to Reformed Baptist and I worship at a Pentecostal Church.

Do the Reformed Baptists believe the same as mainstream Baptists? Thank you.

 

[e.r.m.]

We are all narrators and commentators, but here are several verses which appear to state, in a fundamental way, what I have only re-stated as a comment. I feel these are compelling testimony as to the nature of baptism and the dedication implied.

Spoiler: 4 verses

• "You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies." 1 Cor 6:19-20
• "So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days." Acts 10:48
• "Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?" 1 Cor 1:13
• "for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." Gal 3:27
• "Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it." Luke 9:23-24

Any scripture can seem to support a pre-existing belief. I've heard Mormons use Romans 8:17 to support their belief that since we are heirs of God that we will inherit all His powers and be like God Himself. Paul could have gone in that direction, but he didn't. The Mormons take it in a direction Paul never intended. The litmus test behind any "between the lines" belief is if a Bible author states that belief explicitly somewhere in the Word. Otherwise, it's completely in the eye of the beholder and not a real Biblical teaching.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Any scripture can seem to support a pre-existing belief. I've heard Mormons use Romans 8:17 to support their belief that since we are heirs of God that we will inherit all His powers and be like God Himself. Paul could have gone in that direction, but he didn't. The Mormons take it in a direction Paul never intended. The litmus test behind any "between the lines" belief is if a Bible author states that belief explicitly somewhere in the Word. Otherwise, it's completely in the eye of the beholder and not a real Biblical teaching.

I think Paul is an imperfect person and knows it. He states that Christians should not have sects and should take communion together. All Christians should allow all other Christians to commune and fellowship and focus on good works. "Be excellent in good and innocent of evil and the God of peace will crush Satan beneath your feet." That is really simple and practical, the caster oil for most ills and the path to 'Correct Biblical teaching'.

 

[e.r.m.]

I think Paul is an imperfect person and knows it. He states that Christians should not have sects

Agreed.

and should take communion together.

The verses you mentioned said nothing about the Lord’s supper.

All Christians should allow all other Christians to commune and fellowship and focus on good works.

I don't know what you mean by All Christians and all other Christians. The divisions we have today are not the same as those in Paul's day. At least back then, they all were saved the same way (Yes, some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees Acts 15:5 tried to add to that.) Today, there are divisions on how to even become a Christian.

"Be excellent in good and innocent of evil and the God of peace will crush Satan beneath your feet." That is really simple and practical, the caster oil for most ills and the path to 'Correct Biblical teaching'.

Yes, it is a good castor oil for many ills. But Paul gets specific on correct Biblical teaching.
We actually gotta watch our doctrine
1 Timothy 4:16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

The castor oil you mentioned sure helps with the life part, but we need to give special attention to both. One doesn't automatically take care of the other, any more than one wing of a plane can make up for the loss of the other wing. They're both critical.

 

[Katzpur]

Any scripture can seem to support a pre-existing belief. I've heard Mormons use Romans 8:17 to support their belief that since we are heirs of God that we will inherit all His powers and be like God Himself. Paul could have gone in that direction, but he didn't. The Mormons take it in a direction Paul never intended. The litmus test behind any "between the lines" belief is if a Bible author states that belief explicitly somewhere in the Word. Otherwise, it's completely in the eye of the beholder and not a real Biblical teaching.

Yes, Mormons use Romans 8:16-17 to support our belief in eternal progression. We also use 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21. Through these verses, we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations. To me, those qualify as "real biblical teachings."

 

[e.r.m.]

Yes, Mormons use Romans 8:16-17 to support our belief in eternal progression. We also use 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21. Through these verses, we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations. To me, those qualify as "real biblical teachings."

It's still His authority and His throne, even if He let's you sit there. That doesn't say in the text you're another God!

 

[Katzpur]

It's still His authority and His throne, even if He let's you sit there. That doesn't say in the text you're another God!

Mormons do not believe that any of us will ever be equal to God, our Eternal Father in Heaven. He will always be our God and we will always worship Him. Furthermore, nothing we could possibly do on our own could exalt us to the level of deity. It is only through the will and grace of God that man is given this potential. And "with God, nothing is impossible."

But it's not just Mormons who have interpreted the scriptures the way we do. Would the same beliefs be more acceptable to you if they came from a prominent non-LDS scholar? Here is what C.S. Lewis had to say on the subject:

“The command ‘Be Ye Perfect’ is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were ‘gods’ and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said.”

 

[atpollard]

Do the Reformed Baptists believe the same as mainstream Baptists? Thank you.

Baptists are theologically non-homogeneous. They are split between Arminian and Calvinist in their view.
They just agree that you must have faith and confess to be baptized, so babies are disqualified.

I fall in the Reformed/Calvinist camp with the 'Southern Baptist Convention'.

 

[e.r.m.]

Mormons do not believe that any of us will ever be equal to God, our Eternal Father in Heaven. He will always be our God and we will always worship Him. Furthermore, nothing we could possibly do on our own could exalt us to the level of deity. It is only through the will and grace of God that man is given this potential. And "with God, nothing is impossible."

So you do not believe that any of us will ever be equal to God, but by the grace of God man is still given this potential? I'm confused.

But it's not just Mormons who have interpreted the scriptures the way we do. Would the same beliefs be more acceptable to you if they came from a prominent non-LDS scholar?

Nope!

Here is what C.S. Lewis had to say on the subject:

“The command ‘Be Ye Perfect’ is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were ‘gods’ and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said.”

He said (in the Bible) that we were ‘gods’ and He is going to make good His words... He meant what He said.

Where? Show me a verse.

 

[e.r.m.]

Baptists are theologically non-homogeneous. They are split between Arminian and Calvinist in their view.

They just agree that you must have faith and confess to be baptized, so babies are disqualified.

I fall in the Reformed/Calvinist camp with the 'Southern Baptist Convention'.

Thank you. What view does this camp hold?

 

[Katzpur]

So you do not believe that any of us will ever be equal to God, but by the grace of God man is still given this potential? I'm confused.

It is entirely possible for us to be given godly attributes and qualities and yet still not be equal to God. I'm not sure what you find confusing about that.

Nope!

He said (in the Bible) that we were ‘gods’ and He is going to make good His words... He meant what He said.

Where? Show me a verse.

Psalm 82:6.

 

[e.r.m.]

It is entirely possible for us to be given godly attributes and qualities and yet still not be equal to God. I'm not sure what you find confusing about that.

Psalm 82:6.

Will respond tomorrow, when I have time to type.

 

[Muffled]

Just want to take sort of a poll. This is not to discuss which purpose for water baptism in Jesus's name is correct, but the reasons I've heard include, but are not limited to:
1. For forgiveness of sins.
2. To give one's public confession that they belong to Christ.
3. Testifying what God has already done inside (salvation).
4. As one's parents dedicate their child to Christ.
5. Following Jesus's example.

My question is, has anyone gotten water baptized in Jesus's name for no reason than just cause God says so, with no purpose stated? "Here's Mike, he's being baptized because God says so, Here you go, under the water." Has anyone been taught to get baptized with the only reason being because God says so, and no other reason given?

Thank you.

When I was saved I went through baptismal classes but I didn't agree with everything and felt that was a reason not to get baptized. Ten years later I saw a sign in Sunday school that said "be baptized" so I looked up the scripture and figured it was a command so I decided to be baptized. The profession of faith was elicited from the church because they were expecting one and I was glad to testify of what Jesus had done for me.

 

[Muffled]

I was raised Catholic so I was baptized as a baby. I assume my parents had a purpose beyond the most obvious one (tradition) and that would be the higher morality and salvation found with Christianity.

I believe that means you have no memory of being baptized so your knowledge of it is second hand. I believe also that you can't say it was an act of obedience on your part.

 

[Muffled]

God didn't say so. The Jehovah's Witnesses said so, and I believed them. I got baptized because I believed it was the only way to approach God legitimately so in a way, it was because God said so. The purpose was not stated, but I believed my baptism would make me acceptable to be with Christ. They make it about being with the congregation.

Sometimes I get a feeling that my previous sins will trip me and then I think, [the right English expression is taboo], I am baptized, so it can't hurt me.

I believe you will never think of it any other way because the JW's practice brainwashing.

 

[George-ananda]

I believe that means you have no memory of being baptized so your knowledge of it is second hand.

Correct.

I believe also that you can't say it was an act of obedience on your part.

Correct.

But, you may be making a point I am not getting.

 

[e.r.m.]

When I was saved I went through baptismal classes but I didn't agree with everything and felt that was a reason not to get baptized. Ten years later I saw a sign in Sunday school that said "be baptized" so I looked up the scripture and figured it was a command so I decided to be baptized. The profession of faith was elicited from the church because they were expecting one and I was glad to testify of what Jesus had done for me.

Which scripture did you look up?