Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

[savagewind]

Savagewind,

If that will be the case, their beliefs contradicts with those Scriptures. This is the reason why I would like to know from him the transition between Archangel Michael and Jesus.

Nice talking to you. SW. Need to go home from work.

Thanks

I imagine I am siding with The Holy Spirit saying that everyone is believing contrary to God's Word.
I have no right to say it. Does The Holy Spirit have the right?

 

[ashkat1`]

The Bible really teaches that the word μαθητεύσατε means, "make disciples".

But what it really means is to be a follower and learning.

The Bible really teaches it does NOT mean to be a follower and learner but it means to be making disciples to make disciples to make disciples...

The Bible is wrong, according to me.

If the Bible uses the word μαθητεύσατε to mean make disciples, is it right, according to you?

I think the Bible is encouraging us to be disciples and that means to be a follower and learner as well.

 

[savagewind]

I think the Bible is encouraging us to be disciples and that means to be a follower and learner as well.

As well? What does it mean? A disciple is a follower who learns. What does, "as well" mean? Do you think every disciple's first priority is to make more? Are you avoiding the point?

Do you say they are to learn from each other? I say they are to learn from The Lord. John 10:27 Revelation 2:29

 

[savagewind]

I thought of a picture. The pied piper plays his pipe and the children follow. Is the pied piper making the children follow? Is he making more pipers?

 

[ashkat1`]

As well? What does it mean? A disciple is a follower who learns. What does, "as well" mean? Do you think every disciple's first priority is to make more? Are you avoiding the point?

Do you say they are to learn from each other? I say they are to learn from The Lord. John 10:27 Revelation 2:29

The Bible makes it clear that we learn from God and also from one another. We don't relate to God alone, we relate to God in the context of a community.

 

[ashkat1`]

I thought of a picture. The pied piper plays his pipe and the children follow. Is the pied piper making the children follow? Is he making more pipers?

Depends on how you define the word "making."

 

[savagewind]

Depends on how you define the word "making."

Create; cause (something) to exist or come about; bring about.

Is it the piper who might "make" another piper or is it the music?

Is he playing for the purpose of making more pipers? If he does make more pipers some of the children might follow that one he made.

 

[savagewind]

I want to know what the purpose is for keeping it saying make. Is it because it is too big a task to change it back? Is it because ridicule might result in admitting you were wrong? What is the reason for adding make there?

Is the reason the same for keeping "own" at Proverbs 3:5?

Is it about money?

 

[ashkat1`]

Create; cause (something) to exist or come about; bring about.

Is it the piper who might "make" another piper or is it the music?

Is he playing for the purpose of making more pipers? If he does make more pipers some of the children might follow that one he made.

I am still not sure where you are going with all this. The piper and the music are one. Yes, the piper is, in part, piping to encourage others to be pipers. Yes, the children might follow some other piper. So what?

 

[Deeje]

Deeje,

Gal 1:3-5
3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.NIV

Eph 3:20-21
20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.NIV

1 Peter 4:11
11 If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.NIV

Did Jesus warned us that there will be false teachings? I believe it is stated in the Bible. Now, did Paul the Apostle had mentioned that there should be a group of Bible students that will exists, or there will be a so-called prophet like Charles taze Russell, or there will be an organization to be founded in the future?

I have heard that you're favor in having the right context with the Scriptures. If that would be, then how come that Paul repeatedly stated that there is glory in the church throughout generations, for ever and ever. It says for ever and ever, and not for today or for next century. If the church of Jesus Christ was corrupted or there was an apostasy that happened, then Paul shouldn't say those statements.

I think someone has fed the wrong thinking--that due to apostasy, there should be a body who will served as the church of Jesus Christ.

The whole truth is--Jesus is only the mediator between God and men, and nobody else.

Yoshua, none of what you say makes any sense to me because you read scripture through a trinitarian lens. I took those glasses off over 40 years ago.

Let's look at the scriptures you posted without the trinitarian glasses.

Galatians 1:3-5: NLT
"3 May God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace. 4 Jesus gave his life for our sins, just as God our Father planned, in order to rescue us from this evil world in which we live. 5 All glory to God forever and ever! Amen."

What do we see in these verses? A trinity? I see "God the Father" but not "God the Son"...I see "our Lord Jesus Christ" as a separate entity from his own God and Father. The glory is to God forever. Can you see that?

Ephesians 3:20-21: NLT
"Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think. 21 Glory to him in the church and in Christ Jesus through all generations forever and ever! Amen."

So the first question here is "what is the CHURCH"?
According to Strongs it is "ekklēsia" which means.....

"a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly

1. an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
2. the assembly of the Israelites
3. any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
4. in a Christian sense"

So "the Church" is a collective of people who in the Christian sense is a gathering together of Christ's followers, just as it meant the gathering of Israelites who assembled for worship. All would hold the same beliefs.

The parable of the wheat and the weeds indicated that the devil would produce a crop of his own. This resulted in both genuine and counterfeit Christians being in the same field (the world) 'growing together'. Inasmuch as the "wheat" were still among the "weeds", they were blessed, just as some among Israel were blessed even when their leaders took the nation off course spiritually speaking.

It wasn't until the "harvest" time that a separation would take place and the two would become clearly identifiable as different.....completely different. In this time of the harvest, "the church" is now those who are identified by Christ (not themselves) as "wheat". These are the ones who glorify the true God of the Bible, not the counterfeit god of Christendom. The weeds are soon to be gathered by the angels and disposed of because they did not love the truth, but preferred the lies upon which their "church" is built. (2 Thess 2:9-12; Matthew 7:21-23)

1 Peter 4:11: NLT
"11 Do you have the gift of speaking? Then speak as though God himself were speaking through you. Do you have the gift of helping others? Do it with all the strength and energy that God supplies. Then everything you do will bring glory to God through Jesus Christ. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen."

What do we see here?

God's true worshippers have been floating in a sea of false worship ever since Nimrod's rebellion after the flood. With the construction of his cities, Nimrod created Babel and its famous tower. The devil has set up a religious empire that is identifiable by its core beliefs....which all originated in Babylon and which all share. So all false worship shares a belief in multiple gods (even ones disguised as "three in one head") they all believe in the immortality of the human soul (not taught in scripture but promoted by the devil to back up the first lie he told to the woman...."you surely will not die".) They also have a variety of places to which the dead must go...either to a heavenly bliss, or to a torturous hell of eternal suffering, or something in between. None of these were the beliefs of God's chosen nation, who were warned not to adopt the beliefs and practices of the pagan nations around them.....they never obeyed their God.....but Jesus did...perfectly.
He never taught those things.

An apostasy was foretold and it happened just as Jesus said it would. A cleansing and refining was to take place in "the time of the end" (Daniel 12:4; 9-10)....this is what separates the wheat from the weeds.....the sheep from the goats.

Take the trinity out of the equation and everything is so simple and uncomplicated. The God of the Bible is also the God of Jesus Christ...the son of God who has many roles and many titles but is the same being he was when God created him.

 

[savagewind]

. The piper and the music are one.

No, the piper can do without the music, but the music can't do without the piper. Where am I going? Did The Holy Spirit mean to communicate that to make disciples is God's will for Jesus' disciples?
All of them or just some of them? Was Matthew 28:19 inspired by God to be written, Go, therefore make disciple of all the nations? No? OK then, no problem.

There are many, many people who believe Matthew 28:19 was inspired by God to say that Jesus commands someone to go make disciple Who? Who is the command for?

It is written that if you love Jesus you will keep his commands. Is his command to make disciples? If it is, then only Jehovah's Witnesses love Jesus because they are the only ones who keep the command to make disciples.

 

[Oeste]

You are a former JW Shak34 or raised as one? You post like an apostate. Nuff said.

Can Deeje (if he/she is an actual Jehovah Witness) or someone who is tell me how they can call someone “apostate” when the vast majority of Jehovah Witnesses are apostates themselves?

In other words:

"…how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother’s eye." Luke 6:42

The overwhelming majority of Witnesses were not born Witnesses and come from other religions. I always thought it hypocrisy to encourage criticism for a shortcoming I myself possess, but this leaves me thinking Witnesses have remarkable clarity when looking at others, but are blinded when looking at themselves.

Anything you can quote from this century? Old Watchtowers and publications are like old newspapers, they are not viewed as scripture and never were.

We have never claimed to be prophets.

Who are “We”?

Savagewind made it abundantly clear the Watchtower considers itself a prophet even to the point of quoting WT literature in post 646. Yet in 647 you repeat your claim the Watchtower is not a prophet. Are you an actual baptized JW or an apologist who “associates” with the Watchtower? It just seems you’re giving us a differing, private interpretation while presenting it as the Watchtower’s which is all the more confusing given your comments on apostates.

Also, can you quote the WT article that states we can dismiss former WT publications as “old newspapers”, and can you…by pointing to the appropriate WT article…let us know when a Watchtower publication become “old”?

Lastly, when Watchtower articles do become “old”, do they become “untruthful” as well? Or can you point us to a new, more current Watchtower article that denounces their former claim as “prophet”?

 

[Deeje]

Can Deeje (if he/she is an actual Jehovah Witness) or someone who is tell me how they can call someone “apostate” when the vast majority of Jehovah Witnesses are apostates themselves?

In other words:

"…how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother’s eye." Luke 6:42

The overwhelming majority of Witnesses were not born Witnesses and come from other religions. I always thought it hypocrisy to encourage criticism for a shortcoming I myself possess, but this leaves me thinking Witnesses have remarkable clarity when looking at others, but are blinded when looking at themselves.



Who are “We”?

Savagewind made it abundantly clear the Watchtower considers itself a prophet even to the point of quoting WT literature in post 646. Yet in 647 you repeat your claim the Watchtower is not a prophet. Are you an actual baptized JW or an apologist who “associates” with the Watchtower? It just seems you’re giving us a differing, private interpretation while presenting it as the Watchtower’s which is all the more confusing given your comments on apostates.

Also, can you quote the WT article that states we can dismiss former WT publications as “old newspapers”, and can you…by pointing to the appropriate WT article…let us know when a Watchtower publication become “old”?

Lastly, when Watchtower articles do become “old”, do they become “untruthful” as well? Or can you point us to a new, more current Watchtower article that denounces their former claim as “prophet”?

Do you just want an anti-JW rant or would you like to talk about the holy spirit?

Are you yourself an ex JW? You seem to know a lot about us....or think you do?

We have clarifications all the time...when there is a clarification, the old thought is replaced by the new thought.....hence the "old newspaper".
It is obviously a problem for you...it is not a problem for us. (Proverbs 4:18) The light on the path shines brighter as day dawns, so we adjust our steps accordingly.
No prophets, just companions on a path traveling together, following the one with the lamp.

No one is standing over you with a big stick making you believe anything.....least of all God.

 

[savagewind]

Do you just want an anti-JW rant or would you like to talk about the holy spirit?

Are you yourself an ex JW? You seem to know a lot about us....or think you do?

We have clarifications all the time...when there is a clarification, the old thought is replaced by the new thought.....hence the "old newspaper".
It is obviously a problem for you...it is not a problem for us. (Proverbs 4:18) The light on the path shines brighter as day dawns, so we adjust our steps accordingly.
No prophets, just companions on a path traveling together, following the one with the lamp.

No one is standing over you with a big stick making you believe anything.....least of all God.

You didn't answer the question. When did the governing body decide JWs were NOT prophets?

 

[ashkat1`]

Yoshua, none of what you say makes any sense to me because you read scripture through a trinitarian lens. I took those glasses off over 40 years ago.

Let's look at the scriptures you posted without the trinitarian glasses.

Galatians 1:3-5: NLT
"3 May God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace. 4 Jesus gave his life for our sins, just as God our Father planned, in order to rescue us from this evil world in which we live. 5 All glory to God forever and ever! Amen."

What do we see in these verses? A trinity? I see "God the Father" but not "God the Son"...I see "our Lord Jesus Christ" as a separate entity from his own God and Father. The glory is to God forever. Can you see that?

Ephesians 3:20-21: NLT
"Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think. 21 Glory to him in the church and in Christ Jesus through all generations forever and ever! Amen."

So the first question here is "what is the CHURCH"?
According to Strongs it is "ekklēsia" which means.....

"a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly

1. an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
2. the assembly of the Israelites
3. any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
4. in a Christian sense"

So "the Church" is a collective of people who in the Christian sense is a gathering together of Christ's followers, just as it meant the gathering of Israelites who assembled for worship. All would hold the same beliefs.

The parable of the wheat and the weeds indicated that the devil would produce a crop of his own. This resulted in both genuine and counterfeit Christians being in the same field (the world) 'growing together'. Inasmuch as the "wheat" were still among the "weeds", they were blessed, just as some among Israel were blessed even when their leaders took the nation off course spiritually speaking.

It wasn't until the "harvest" time that a separation would take place and the two would become clearly identifiable as different.....completely different. In this time of the harvest, "the church" is now those who are identified by Christ (not themselves) as "wheat". These are the ones who glorify the true God of the Bible, not the counterfeit god of Christendom. The weeds are soon to be gathered by the angels and disposed of because they did not love the truth, but preferred the lies upon which their "church" is built. (2 Thess 2:9-12; Matthew 7:21-23)

1 Peter 4:11: NLT
"11 Do you have the gift of speaking? Then speak as though God himself were speaking through you. Do you have the gift of helping others? Do it with all the strength and energy that God supplies. Then everything you do will bring glory to God through Jesus Christ. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen."

What do we see here?

God's true worshippers have been floating in a sea of false worship ever since Nimrod's rebellion after the flood. With the construction of his cities, Nimrod created Babel and its famous tower. The devil has set up a religious empire that is identifiable by its core beliefs....which all originated in Babylon and which all share. So all false worship shares a belief in multiple gods (even ones disguised as "three in one head") they all believe in the immortality of the human soul (not taught in scripture but promoted by the devil to back up the first lie he told to the woman...."you surely will not die".) They also have a variety of places to which the dead must go...either to a heavenly bliss, or to a torturous hell of eternal suffering, or something in between. None of these were the beliefs of God's chosen nation, who were warned not to adopt the beliefs and practices of the pagan nations around them.....they never obeyed their God.....but Jesus did...perfectly.
He never taught those things.

An apostasy was foretold and it happened just as Jesus said it would. A cleansing and refining was to take place in "the time of the end" (Daniel 12:4; 9-10)....this is what separates the wheat from the weeds.....the sheep from the goats.

Take the trinity out of the equation and everything is so simple and uncomplicated. The God of the Bible is also the God of Jesus Christ...the son of God who has many roles and many titles but is the same being he was when God created him.

Let's look at the scriptures you posted without the trinitarian glasses.

Galatians 1:3-5: NLT
"3 May God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace. 4 Jesus gave his life for our sins, just as God our Father planned, in order to rescue us from this evil world in which we live. 5 All glory to God forever and ever! Amen."

What do we see in these verses? A trinity? I see "God the Father" but not "God the Son"...I see "our Lord Jesus Christ" as a separate entity from his own God and Father. The glory is to God forever. Can you see that?

Ephesians 3:20-21: NLT
"Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think. 21 Glory to him in the church and in Christ Jesus through all generations forever and ever! Amen."

So the first question here is "what is the CHURCH"?
According to Strongs it is "ekklēsia" which means.....

"a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly

1. an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
2. the assembly of the Israelites
3. any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
4. in a Christian sense"

So "the Church" is a collective of people who in the Christian sense is a gathering together of Christ's followers, just as it meant the gathering of Israelites who assembled for worship. All would hold the same beliefs.

The parable of the wheat and the weeds indicated that the devil would produce a crop of his own. This resulted in both genuine and counterfeit Christians being in the same field (the world) 'growing together'. Inasmuch as the "wheat" were still among the "weeds", they were blessed, just as some among Israel were blessed even when their leaders took the nation off course spiritually speaking.

It wasn't until the "harvest" time that a separation would take place and the two would become clearly identifiable as different.....completely different. In this time of the harvest, "the church" is now those who are identified by Christ (not themselves) as "wheat". These are the ones who glorify the true God of the Bible, not the counterfeit god of Christendom. The weeds are soon to be gathered by the angels and disposed of because they did not love the truth, but preferred the lies upon which their "church" is built. (2 Thess 2:9-12; Matthew 7:21-23)

1 Peter 4:11: NLT
"11 Do you have the gift of speaking? Then speak as though God himself were speaking through you. Do you have the gift of helping others? Do it with all the strength and energy that God supplies. Then everything you do will bring glory to God through Jesus Christ. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen."

What do we see here?

God's true worshippers have been floating in a sea of false worship ever since Nimrod's rebellion after the flood. With the construction of his cities, Nimrod created Babel and its famous tower. The devil has set up a religious empire that is identifiable by its core beliefs....which all originated in Babylon and which all share. So all false worship shares a belief in multiple gods (even ones disguised as "three in one head") they all believe in the immortality of the human soul (not taught in scripture but promoted by the devil to back up the first lie he told to the woman...."you surely will not die".) They also have a variety of places to which the dead must go...either to a heavenly bliss, or to a torturous hell of eternal suffering, or something in between. None of these were the beliefs of God's chosen nation, who were warned not to adopt the beliefs and practices of the pagan nations around them.....they never obeyed their God.....but Jesus did...perfectly.
He never taught those things.

An apostasy was foretold and it happened just as Jesus said it would. A cleansing and refining was to take place in "the time of the end" (Daniel 12:4; 9-10)....this is what separates the wheat from the weeds.....the sheep from the goats.

Take the trinity out of the equation and everything is so simple and uncomplicated. The God of the Bible is also the God of Jesus Christ...the son of God who has many roles and many titles but is the same being he was when God created him.[/QUOTE]


Look, Deeje, I know for a fact that the Trinity is a solid doctrine, well supported both biblically and theologically. The anti-Trinitarian movement was heard, weighed in the balance, and ruled out as heresy long ago. If you wish to challenge it, that is your privilege. But then you take on the responsibility of providing an impressive counter-argument. And this better be good, as you are dealing with a hot-button issue at the heart of the Christian religion. You need to demonstrate you can address, say, Augustine's psychological model of the trinity, clearly state his position and rationale, and then go right down the list, providing a solid rebuttal of each of his points. This is going to be a task of epic proportion for a guy like you. The church fathers and other major Trinitarian thinkers were and are master biblical scholars, capable of intellectual achievements far beyond anything you seem to have accomplished, contrary to your caricature of them as a bunch of apostates who don't know what they are talking about. You need to become more sensitive to the fact that in the eyes of the wider Christian community, you are the heretic, you are the apostate, you are the denier of Christ, the one in the hot seat. While no one is going to burn you at the stake today, as happened with anti-Trinitarians in days of old, you still carry the reputation of being on the lunatic fringe of the church and therefore one not to be taken seriously at all. You are a David going up against a Goliath. So the question is, Where is your sling-shot? Your posts are anything but a solid counter-argument. They do little more than throw rocks through stained-glass windows, they are essentially personal attacks, name-calling, finger-pointing, and wild denunciation's of the whole Christian religion as all apostasy. Given you are already on thin ice, you have now put yourself into a dangerous adversarial relationship with the wider Christian community, you are now the enemy at the gates, you have put every Christian on the planet on the defensive, and so you have ended up locking yourself out of any meaningful dialogue. You are easily written off as some heretical troll who is here just to make trouble and embarrass members of the Christian faith. If you want me to take your seriously, you are going to have to do a far better job of it, or get out of the business. Given your limited education and poor communications skills, I'd suggest you exercise that latter option immediately.

 

[ashkat1`]

No, the piper can do without the music, but the music can't do without the piper. Where am I going? Did The Holy Spirit mean to communicate that to make disciples is God's will for Jesus' disciples?
All of them or just some of them? Was Matthew 28:19 inspired by God to be written, Go, therefore make disciple of all the nations? No? OK then, no problem.

There are many, many people who believe Matthew 28:19 was inspired by God to say that Jesus commands someone to go make disciple Who? Who is the command for?

It is written that if you love Jesus you will keep his commands. Is his command to make disciples? If it is, then only Jehovah's Witnesses love Jesus because they are the only ones who keep the command to make disciples.

The piper cannot do without the music. The piper has to have the music in order to be a piper. You cannot be a piper and not play. Dig? I think that Matt. 28:19 is saying that all believers has a responsibility to share the gospel, the good news, with others, helping them become aware of God's massive love and presence through each miniscule segment of time and space.

 

[Deeje]

Look, Deeje, I know for a fact that the Trinity is a solid doctrine, well supported both biblically and theologically. The anti-Trinitarian movement was heard, weighed in the balance, and ruled out as heresy long ago. If you wish to challenge it, that is your privilege. But then you take on the responsibility of providing an impressive counter-argument. And this better be good, as you are dealing with a hot-button issue at the heart of the Christian religion.

It matters little to me whether you accept the trinity or not ashkat....you are free to believe whatever you wish. I was raised in Christendom and I chose to examine what I was taught in the light of scripture....all of it....not just the ambiguous verses that suggest, maybe if you squeeze it hard enough, you can fit three gods into one head. There is no outright statement about the trinity in any verse of the Bible. If there was, people would not have been having a debate about it for almost two millenniums.

You need to demonstrate you can address, say, Augustine's psychological model of the trinity, clearly state his position and rationale, and then go right down the list, providing a solid rebuttal of each of his points. This is going to be a task of epic proportion for a guy like you.

First of all, I am not a guy.

and second of all I have posted on this topic more times than common sense dictates. Go over my previous posts and you will find what you are looking for. I doubt you will but its all there.

There are way more scriptures that debunk the trinity than there are that can be manipulated to suggest it....and that is all they do. Like the theory of evolution, it is the scholars who tap into people's egos and lead them off into error by suggesting that only morons would deny it. It is the same mindset that led people to ignore Noah. No one else believed him so that just made everyone feel smug about not taking his warning seriously.
The whole world can't be wrong!...can they?

The church fathers and other major Trinitarian thinkers were and are master biblical scholars, capable of intellectual achievements far beyond anything you seem to have accomplished, contrary to your caricature of them as a bunch of apostates who don't know what they are talking about. You need to become more sensitive to the fact that in the eyes of the wider Christian community, you are the heretic, you are the apostate, you are the denier of Christ, the one in the hot seat.

Since Jesus himself occupied that seat, it feels comfortable...and its not hot at all. It has never been about numbers, education or popular opinion where God's truth is concerned....those are the things the devil uses to gain his own converts.

While no one is going to burn you at the stake today, as happened with anti-Trinitarians in days of old, you still carry the reputation of being on the lunatic fringe of the church and therefore one not to be taken seriously at all. You are a David going up against a Goliath. So the question is, Where is your sling-shot? Your posts are anything but a solid counter-argument. They do little more than throw rocks through stained-glass windows, they are essentially personal attacks, name-calling, finger-pointing, and wild denunciation's of the whole Christian religion as all apostasy. Given you are already on thin ice, you have now put yourself into a dangerous adversarial relationship with the wider Christian community, you are now the enemy at the gates, you have put every Christian on the planet on the defensive, and so you have ended up locking yourself out of any meaningful dialogue.

Again, since Jesus and his disciples were considered to be on the "lunatic fringe" by the Jews...I am bolstered in my commitment to the truth, rather than rely on the lousy foundation upon which Christendom is built....the apostasy foretold by Jesus. I walked away from that decades ago.

JW's are not out to convert the world...far from it....we are just the messengers who appeal to "the lost sheep" as Jesus did. He was not sent to those who were happy with the status quo in Judaism...he concentrated on those who saw that hypocritical system for what it was, but who still had a love for God.

Christendom is the mirror image of first century Judaism. We meet people who see through Christendom's hypocrisy and want to know the truth....they study the Bible with us and come into our family, globally united by love, like no other Christian body on earth.
I know what I am part of and people are free to make their own judgments about who we are and what we believe. It is God who draws people to his truth, not their intellect , their knowledge, or their diplomas. (John 6:44)

You are easily written off as some heretical troll who is here just to make trouble and embarrass members of the Christian faith.

If I embarrass anyone by what I post, then that means I have struck a guilty nerve....embarrassment comes from guilt. I have not seen one decent rebuttal from you...only empty whining and attacks on my brotherhood.
As I said, attacks are a lousy substitute for defense. You have defended nothing. You seem too busy defending intellectualism as if it makes you superior somehow. It doesn't.

sorry.

If you want me to take your seriously, you are going to have to do a far better job of it, or get out of the business. Given your limited education and poor communications skills, I'd suggest you exercise that latter option immediately.

Now I am laughing out loud....

Do you hear yourself? O dear.....

 

[ashkat1`]

It matters little to me whether you accept the trinity or not ashkat....you are free to believe whatever you wish. I was raised in Christendom and I chose to examine what I was taught in the light of scripture....all of it....not just the ambiguous verses that suggest, maybe if you squeeze it hard enough, you can fit three gods into one head. There is no outright statement about the trinity in any verse of the Bible. If there was, people would not have been having a debate about it for almost two millenniums.



First of all, I am not a guy.

and second of all I have posted on this topic more times than common sense dictates. Go over my previous posts and you will find what you are looking for. I doubt you will but its all there.

There are way more scriptures that debunk the trinity than there are that can be manipulated to suggest it....and that is all they do. Like the theory of evolution, it is the scholars who tap into people's egos and lead them off into error by suggesting that only morons would deny it. It is the same mindset that led people to ignore Noah. No one else believed him so that just made everyone feel smug about not taking his warning seriously.
The whole world can't be wrong!...can they?

Since Jesus himself occupied that seat, it feels comfortable...and its not hot at all. It has never been about numbers, education or popular opinion where God's truth is concerned....those are the things the devil uses to gain his own converts.



Again, since Jesus and his disciples were considered to be on the "lunatic fringe" by the Jews...I am bolstered in my commitment to the truth, rather than rely on the lousy foundation upon which Christendom is built....the apostasy foretold by Jesus. I walked away from that decades ago.

JW's are not out to convert the world...far from it....we are just the messengers who appeal to "the lost sheep" as Jesus did. He was not sent to those who were happy with the status quo in Judaism...he concentrated on those who saw that hypocritical system for what it was, but who still had a love for God.

Christendom is the mirror image of first century Judaism. We meet people who see through Christendom's hypocrisy and want to know the truth....they study the Bible with us and come into our family, globally united by love, like no other Christian body on earth.
I know what I am part of and people are free to make their own judgments about who we are and what we believe. It is God who draws people to his truth, not their intellect , their knowledge, or their diplomas. (John 6:44)



If I embarrass anyone by what I post, then that means I have struck a guilty nerve....embarrassment comes from guilt. I have not seen one decent rebuttal from you...only empty whining and attacks on my brotherhood.
As I said, attacks are a lousy substitute for defense. You have defended nothing. You seem too busy defending intellectualism as if it makes you superior somehow. It doesn't.

sorry.



Now I am laughing out loud....

Do you hear yourself? O dear.....

What a coincidence! All I'm seeing from you here is a lot of empty whining and attacks on the Christian church. Not one decent rebuttal from you, either.

 

[Shak34]

Can Deeje (if he/she is an actual Jehovah Witness) or someone who is tell me how they can call someone “apostate” when the vast majority of Jehovah Witnesses are apostates themselves?

I am not a witness, but they do not believe it is apostasy to leave a church and to go to the organization. This is because they believe that the society is the truth. Basically you can't be an apostate if you leave false religion/Christendom to go to the truth/watchtower. If I didn't explain that properly perhaps another can do better.

The overwhelming majority of Witnesses were not born Witnesses and come from other religions. I always thought it hypocrisy to encourage criticism for a shortcoming I myself possess, but this leaves me thinking Witnesses have remarkable clarity when looking at others, but are blinded when looking at themselves.

I would have to disagree with that. From what I have experienced/seen majority of witnesses are born in the religion.

 

[ashkat1`]

I am not a witness, but they do not believe it is apostasy to leave a church and to go to the organization. This is because they believe that the society is the truth. Basically you can't be an apostate if you leave false religion/Christendom to go to the truth/watchtower. If I didn't explain that properly perhaps another can do better.




I would have to disagree with that. From what I have experienced/seen majority of witnesses are born in the religion.

For the record, the JDubs are viewed as heretical by the Christian religion because they, like the Pharisees, vehemently deny the Deity of Christ, which is clearly established in the NT. I have yet to see Deeje or any other JDub adequately address the biblical witness here. It is interesting to note the Watchtower Society has issued its own issue of the Bible, the New World Translation, done by anonymous translators. Strange, every other edition has known, specified translators. I can't help but wonder what they are trying to hide. Anyhow, my point is that the JDubs are so determined to deny the Deity of Christ that their edition deliberately mistranslates the prologue to John. Instead of stating correctly "the Word was God," they mistranslate the phrase to read "the Word was a God." That breaks the rules of Greek grammar and is totally incorrect. Furthermore, it makes one wonder how many gods they believe in. If the Father is one God and then Christ is another, it seems they believe in two gods, are polytheistic, and have violated the strict monotheism of the Bible. Of course, in their own delusional way of thinking, they are the one and only true church and everyone else is all wrong.