That appears to be the case.
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Wondering About Forgiveness
- Thread starter Spockrates
- Start date
Spockrates
Wonderer.
Yes, now that you put it that way, I think you might be right. So a murderous thought is not murder, but a murderous action is murder. I now agree.
What about adultery? I now think that--like murder--an adulterous thought is not adultery, but an adulterous action is adultery. Do we still agree?
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Yes. Adultery and murder occur objectively, in concrete reality. "Murder in the heart" and "adultery in the heart" refers to the suffering a being experiences by holding burning embers of hatred or illicit desire within their minds, imo. (I equate this suffering with "hellfire," as per a Buddhist teaching regarding it. I recognize that this is a bias on my part. Your mileage {and/or bias} may vary.)
Spockrates
Wonderer.
Yes, that makes sense to me! Now a couple of other examples: Hate and lust. These appear to me to be opposites of murder and adultery in a way. It seems to me that:
(1) Hateful thoughts are hate, but hateful actions aren't hate
and
(2) Lustful thoughts are lust, but lustful actions aren't lust
Are we still in agreement?
No. The thoughts and the actions are not opposites. The actions are the result of that being's mind being overcome by either hatred or lust.
Spockrates
Wonderer.
Yes, that is a more accurate way is saying it. It seems we agree that hate causes murder and lust causes adultery, or at least these thoughts are contributing causes to these actions. I think this is true. How about you?
Yes. We are in agreement.
Spockrates
Wonderer.
Yes, we agree about these vices. Perhaps we will agree about virtues as well. Consider generosity: I'm thinking generous thoughts aren't generosity but generous actions--such as giving money to a charity--can be generosity. Are you thinking the same?
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Perhaps. Giving money to a charity might not be considered effective generosity if very little of the money actually goes to those needing it.
Spockrates
Wonderer.
I agree. So generosity is a generous action caused by a generous thought, I think. Don't you?
Sure.
Spockrates
Wonderer.
[emoji4]
So we agree that hate is the thought that is a cause of murder, and lust is the thought that is a cause of adultery. So then, what is the thought that is a cause of generosity?
Spockrates
Wonderer.
(I think I have the answer, if you're unsure. I can give you my opinion, and you can tell me if you agree.)
Within my paradigm, generosity arises with a lack of greed. Your paradigm may be different.
Spockrates
Wonderer.
But I didn't ask what thought is not a cause of generosity. Instead I asked what thought is a cause of generosity. So the question remains unanswered: What is the generous thought (which is not greed) that is a cause of generosity?
Spockrates
Wonderer.
Perhaps it will help to consider the thought that is a cause of other virtues? I have some more examples, which I think might all be caused by this same thought, if you're interested in considering one or more of them.
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"Philosophy, not a religion" is, itself, a misunderstanding of both. Heathenry is a religion, or at least a set of religions. It's just neither organized nor particularly unified.
Heathenry isn't really atheistic, but polytheist. However, positive theistic belief isn't all that necessary, since the Gods aren't front-and-center; behavior is. A Heathen can "believe" (mostly) whatever they want and still be Heathen.
Within my paradigm, there are the four immeasurables: loving kindness, compassion, empathetic joy, and equanimity (evenness of mind-not subject to freaking out.) Their cause really can't be traced, but they can be obscured or covered over by things like greed, hatred, and delusion.
Spockrates
Wonderer.
I was going to say I think compassion is a cause of generosity. How about you?
Spockrates
Wonderer.
Also, regarding a different topic, I find it interesting that each of the immeasurables is included in this passage of Christian scripture:
"But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control..." (Galatians 5:22-23)
Perhaps there is a kind of shared wisdom between the teachers of the different religions?
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