Watchmaker Theory

[Barsabbas]

I have been having a discussion with a local 'leader' of a religion, not about their religion but about the concept thereof. They brought up the watchmaker theory, that is to say, "If you found a watch on the floor eventually you would have to accept that it had a maker or maker(s), would you not?". Now my argument to this is the age old "but where did the maker come from by the logic that all things do indeed have a maker/creator?".

What are the opinions out there on the beginning of the universe and the Earth and that if they surely must have had an intelligent creator then how did the intelligent creator come about?

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

I have been having a discussion with a local 'leader' of a religion, not about their religion but about the concept thereof. They brought up the watchmaker theory, that is to say, "If you found a watch on the floor eventually you would have to accept that it had a maker or maker(s), would you not?". Now my argument to this is the age old "but where did the maker come from by the logic that all things do indeed have a maker/creator?".

What are the opinions out there on the beginning of the universe and the Earth and that if they surely must have had an intelligent creator then how did the intelligent creator come about?

I would say the universe is eternal and can only change states.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Also it would be a Watchmaker Scenario, as it could not even be a hypothesis much less a theory.

 

[Valjean]

The watchmaker analogy has been thoroughly debunked.

of course, that won't stop the religious from bringing it up

 

[Ouroboros]

I have been having a discussion with a local 'leader' of a religion, not about their religion but about the concept thereof. They brought up the watchmaker theory, that is to say, "If you found a watch on the floor eventually you would have to accept that it had a maker or maker(s), would you not?". Now my argument to this is the age old "but where did the maker come from by the logic that all things do indeed have a maker/creator?".

Also, if you find a watch next to a rock, why do you think the watch is more designed than the rock? If it was true that it's just as obvious that a rock is designed, then we shouldn't see a difference of design concepts or complexity in either one, and we shouldn't be able to say "look a watch! It must be designed." since we must say the same about the rock next to it. There's obviously a difference between a watch, designed by humans, and a rock, universe, life which are not.

What are the opinions out there on the beginning of the universe and the Earth and that if they surely must have had an intelligent creator then how did the intelligent creator come about?

Same way we did, by nature. Nature is the ultimate creator. Essentially, the watch is created by nature, using humans as proxy.

 

[Quintessence]

I would challenge their assumption that "creator" and "creation" are somehow separate entities.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

I would challenge their assumption that "creator" and "creation" are somehow separate entities.

I wonder why they say that the universe is to complex to not be created, but that means the creator is even more complex and therefore needs a creator.

Also you cannot create yourself as you would have to exist in a state of nonexistence to do so, a better idea is that the universe is eternal.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I wonder why they say that the universe is to complex to not be created, but that means the creator is even more complex and therefore needs a creator..

No .. the universe is a physical system, as is a watch .. The Creator is not part of the universe (space-time), and is spiritual (non-physical) .. being omniscient effectively means that He is aware of every aspect of the universe that He created ie. everything in space-time

As time starts when the universe was created, it makes no mathematical sense to talk about a beginning and an end for God

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

No .. the universe is a physical system, as is a watch .. The Creator is not part of the universe (space-time), and is spiritual (non-physical) .. being omniscient effectively means that He is aware of every aspect of the universe that He created ie. everything in space-time

As time starts when the universe was created, it makes no mathematical sense to talk about a beginning and an end for God

None of this has any evidence to back it up.

This has about as much authenticity as bigfoot.

 

[Ouroboros]

I wonder why they say that the universe is to complex to not be created, but that means the creator is even more complex and therefore needs a creator.

Yup. Complexity isn't an argument for God's existence. It's a very bad one for the very reason you're mentioning.

 

[Quintessence]

Also you cannot create yourself as you would have to exist in a state of nonexistence to do so, a better idea is that the universe is eternal.

Odd. Apparently everything I was taught as a biologist is wrong, then, and organisms don't create new cells from environmental derivates on a continuous basis...

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Odd. Apparently everything I was taught as a biologist is wrong, then, and organisms don't create new cells from environmental derivates on a continuous basis...

That is cells creating new cells.

Not an organism making itself.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

The creator of the universe is a bit like the wizard of Oz. He stands behind a curtain and only a few people know he exists. Those who have not seen him deny that he exists but that does not make it true. I think God does not want everyone to know He exists so only those few who He allows to have faith can know about Him. This is sad for those who do not know about Him for they will never know the truth.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

The creator of the universe is a bit like the wizard of Oz. He stands behind a curtain and only a few people know he exists. Those who have not seen him deny that he exists but that does not make it true. I think God does not want everyone to know He exists so only those few who He allows to have faith can know about Him. This is sad for those who do not know about Him for they will never know the truth.

(1) You have no proof of this statement.

(2) This god does not seem very moral.

 

[muhammad_isa]

None of this has any evidence to back it up.

That's a false statement .. you're basically saying that I'm talking 'out of my backside'

OK .. you can deny 'the big bang' and the theory of relativity if you wish

 

[Quintessence]

That is cells creating new cells.

Not an organism making itself.

I'm not seeing the same distinction you're seeing, but that's okay. Seems to me the inherent properties of reality lead to what humans label as "creation" and "making." Things "create" themselves, all the time...

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

That's a false statement .. you're basically saying that I'm talking 'out of my backside'

OK .. you can deny 'the big bang' and the theory of relativity if you wish

The big-bang (which is the point the universe rapidly expanded) and the theory of relitivty (proof that the laws of physics are the same for all non-accelerating observers) has nothing to do with the idea that an deity no one has evidence for created the universe.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

I'm not seeing the same distinction you're seeing, but that's okay. Seems to me the inherent properties of reality lead to what humans label as "creation" and "making." Things "create" themselves, all the time...

Humans come into being from an outside interference.

Nothing ever simply comes into existence without an outside trigger.

Therefore the universe must be eternal or else it would have to be created by something that was created.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

People who practice wicca are among those that God has chosen not to reveal Himself to. Therefore it is impossible for you to see the truth.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

People who practice wicca are among those that God has chosen not to reveal Himself to. Therefore it is impossible for you to see the truth.

(1) Please tell me what Wicca is.

(2) Why is that?

(3) How would you know?