The contributions of the sciences to Religion

[mystic64]

I agree with you.

Atheism is no problem. It has no basis. We should convince them with the our reasonable and brilliant signs and arguments on one to one basis in and outside the Academia, over a cup of tea and coffee, like:

Hello! Hello! Hello!

Peace be on you and your family.
Over a cup of hot coffee or tea in the Tim Hortons
Without the burden of “Burden of proof”
Let us compare our notes on:
“Does God exist or does not exist?”
Don’t worry; I will pay the bill of Tim Hortons.
Cordially invited to one to one discussion
Open to everybody, the Theists (the believers in God) of all denominations and the Atheists (the non-believers) of all hues and colors.
It will be a peaceful dialogue and without derision or ridicule.
Just call me, please:
I am, Skeptic of the Skeptic, a believer in God very naturally.
​

I am confident we can convince them with peaceful dialogue .
Regards

​

"I am confident we can convince them with peaceful dialogue." Paarsurry, I like your attitude and your approach to possibilities! But it is hard for me to as optimistic as you are . At least relative to peaceful dialog (no loudness, anger, and/or pounding on the table) . Now the concept of "brillant signs and arguments", in my opinion, is where things could possibly become interesting and doable. And lets face it, if one's words were guided by God or some other of the Loving Divine, things relative to dialog could go in interesting directions relative to doable. Paarsurrey, your "without the burden of proof" idea is also an interesting, in my opinion, approach to dialog . Because lets face it, at this point in time there does not seem to be any absolute proof for Theism or Atheism. Past legend claims that there was proof for Theism, but there does not seem to be any of that kind of proof present in today's world. So without the burden of proof, dialog might become possible and maybe even peaceful .

 

[paarsurrey]

"I am confident we can convince them with peaceful dialogue." Paarsurry, I like your attitude and your approach to possibilities! But it is hard for me to as optimistic as you are . At least relative to peaceful dialog (no loudness, anger, and/or pounding on the table) . Now the concept of "brillant signs and arguments", in my opinion, is where things could possibly become interesting and doable. And lets face it, if one's words were guided by God or some other of the Loving Divine, things relative to dialog could go in interesting directions relative to doable. Paarsurrey, your "without the burden of proof" idea is also an interesting, in my opinion, approach to dialog . Because lets face it, at this point in time there does not seem to be any absolute proof for Theism or Atheism. Past legend claims that there was proof for Theism, but there does not seem to be any of that kind of proof present in today's world. So without the burden of proof, dialog might become possible and maybe even peaceful .

Why make "burden of proof" a controversial point? We have absolutely no burden on our souls. If Atheism people insist on it, then it is a sign of their weakness and theirs being a blind-faith in Atheism . Why indulge in dry and fuzzy logic? While logic is not 100% accurate and creates bitterness and hatred if prolonged. The peaceful dialogue is for understanding the things in an atmosphere of love and friendliness. One is won heart and soul with love and friendliness not with dry bickering. Right?
Regards

 

[mystic64]

Why make "burden of proof" a controversial point? We have absolutely no burden on our souls. If Atheism people insist on it, then it is a sign of their weakness and theirs being a blind-faith in Atheism . Why indulge in dry and fuzzy logic? While logic is not 100% accurate and creates bitterness and hatred if prolonged. The peaceful dialogue is for understanding the things in an atmosphere of love and friendliness. One is won heart and soul with love and friendliness not with dry bickering. Right?
Regards

Yes Paarsurry, you are right ! But that is not the point, the point is them. To them love and friendliness is a "weakness" and a part of the lie. At best the only thing that you are going to achieve is that they do not want to have anything to do with you. They exist in a different mind reality than you do. Yes you can use the approach that you are presenting with the average person, but not with "Them". The instant that you start to make sense they will withdraw into hiding and then if possible come at you from the shadows.

 

[Shad]

No Shad....you said...."I have dreams about activities I will do the next days since I already know and planned said activities..... It is called memory...."
I have just used your rationalization of a fisherman who dreams about activities he will do next day when he does fishing since he already knows and planned said activities...because of memory...

I aid the same thing using different words. Remembering something is memory. Having a dream about fishing while said trip was planned before the dream is also memory of the activity that is planned.

So when the fisherman dreams of catching a catfish and a crab, but no bream, and goes off next day and catches a catfish and a crab but not a bream, you are saying the dream does not indicate prescience because he knew precisely what he wanted to catch and planned it accordingly beforehand....and just dreamed it because of the memory of the plan... If that is the case...the fisherman has even more remarkable ESP than prescience...in fact the dream is superfluous....he can plan precisely the fish he want to catch before hand....and they hop on his line according to the plan...and he doesn't catch any that were not in the plan...haha...

A fisherman is a label for someone that makes a career out of fishing. This means that fishing is a major part of their life. Having dreams about one's work is not unique nor unusual. Dreaming about catching fish is not unique given the previous. How there are specifics missing. There is no stated time within the dream for catching these fish, like 12:38pm or w/e. What about all the dreams that do not come true. You must also consider this otherwise it is selection bias. You are taking a one off and treating it in isolation. I can do that with my own dreams that come true and ignore those that don't.

Shad....I really don't think you have the prerequisite understanding of logic to post here... at least think more deeply before you post such nonsense.....

There is no logic but sophistry.

 

[Parsimony]

Why make "burden of proof" a controversial point? We have absolutely no burden on our souls. If Atheism people insist on it, then it is a sign of their weakness and theirs being a blind-faith in Atheism . Why indulge in dry and fuzzy logic? While logic is not 100% accurate and creates bitterness and hatred if prolonged. The peaceful dialogue is for understanding the things in an atmosphere of love and friendliness. One is won heart and soul with love and friendliness not with dry bickering. Right?
Regards

Sounds like you're equivocating the concept of burden of proof with the standard dictionary definition of burden.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I aid the same thing using different words. Remembering something is memory. Having a dream about fishing while said trip was planned before the dream is also memory of the activity that is planned.

A fisherman is a label for someone that makes a career out of fishing. This means that fishing is a major part of their life. Having dreams about one's work is not unique nor unusual. Dreaming about catching fish is not unique given the previous. How there are specifics missing. There is no stated time within the dream for catching these fish, like 12:38pm or w/e. What about all the dreams that do not come true. You must also consider this otherwise it is selection bias. You are taking a one off and treating it in isolation. I can do that with my own dreams that come true and ignore those that don't.

There is no logic but sophistry.

I understand Shad that a plan to go fishing can be the cause of a dream the night before.....that is a given....

What is the not a given is that when I dream of specific types of fish and or crab in that dream....it is precisely these that were caught.... Now when I planned to go fishing, I did not decide the specific types of fish and or crabs I wanted to catch beforehand....for the very idea is absurd. I fished in a river that had numerous types of fish that I caught.....flathead, bream, cod, flounder, eel, whiting, jewfish, catfish, stingray, small shark, etc.. I mainly went with hopes of catching a big jewfish or flathead....but which rarely happened and which therefore were not in my dreams...but the otoh my most common catch was catfish which I never wanted but which were in my dreams...

So here is the challenge to you...presuming you sometimes fish...next time the day before you go, write down the specific type of fish that you want to catch to the exclusion of the others and then catch them precisely as you planned.... I have never done it for it is an impossible quest.... so my dreams were never a memory of any plans of a detailed list of the fish I intended to catch...

The only sophistry being played out here is your incredibly stupid proposition that the precise type of fish I caught that I had dreamed I would catch were specifically planned in my mind before my dream.....

 

[Shad]

What is the not a given is that when I dream of specific types of fish and or crab in that dream....it is precisely these that were caught....

Which can be account by the knowledge of the place which one is fishing which is still planned before hand.

Now when I planned to go fishing, I did not decide the specific types of fish and or crabs I wanted to catch beforehand....for the very idea is absurd.

Different type of fish inhabit specific types of environments. This knowledge can easily account for the dream.

I fished in a river that had numerous types of fish that I caught.....flathead, bream, cod, flounder, eel, whiting, jewfish, catfish, stingray, small shark, etc.. I mainly went with hopes of catching a big jewfish or flathead....but which rarely happened and which therefore were not in my dreams...but the otoh my most common catch was catfish which I never wanted but which were in my dreams...

See above.

So here is the challenge to you...presuming you sometimes fish...next time the day before you go, write down the specific type of fish that you want to catch to the exclusion of the others and then catch them precisely as you planned.... I have never done it for it is an impossible quest.... so my dreams were never a memory of any plans of a detailed list of the fish I intended to catch...

No need as random chance can account for this. Rather what you should suggest is where, when and how each is caught. For example at 12:48pm I will catch X fish using X rod. It will take X amount of time reel it in. You keep your dream vague enough that you can inject whatever claims you want.

The only sophistry being played out here is your incredibly stupid proposition that the precise type of fish I caught that I had dreamed I would catch were specifically planned in my mind before my dream.....

It is sophistry since you are using random chances and coincidence to create your argument based on vague claims. These are fallacious reasons. However since you think you claims are reasonable regardless of the fallacious nature of your arguments then it is sophistry.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Which can be account by the knowledge of the place which one is fishing which is still planned before hand.


Different type of fish inhabit specific types of environments. This knowledge can easily account for the dream.

See above.


No need as random chance can account for this. Rather what you should suggest is where, when and how each is caught. For example at 12:48pm I will catch X fish using X rod. It will take X amount of time reel it in. You keep your dream vague enough that you can inject whatever claims you want.

It is sophistry since you are using random chances and coincidence to create your argument based on vague claims. These are fallacious reasons. However since you think you claims are reasonable regardless of the fallacious nature of your arguments then it is sophistry.

Shad...I get it....there is no evidence under the sun except the personal experience of actual prescience....the proof of the pudding is in the eating... That is fine, I already know that the more materialistically minded souls are less sensitive to the vibrational interconnectedness of the world. ....if the sensitivity of your mind and soul is low...there is much going on around you that you are unaware of and will be that way until your sensitivity grows.... Good luck going forward.....

 

[Shad]

Shad...I get it....there is no evidence under the sun except the personal experience of actual prescience....the proof of the pudding is in the eating...

A detailed and accurate "prescience" would be great. You have yet to show one that can not be linked with memory

That is fine, I already know that the more materialistically minded souls are less sensitive to the vibrational interconnectedness of the world. ....if the sensitivity of your mind and soul is low...there is much going on around you that you are unaware of and will be that way until your sensitivity grows.... Good luck going forward.....

No, just that your "evidence" is lacking.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

A detailed and accurate "prescience" would be great. You have yet to show one that can not be linked with memory

No, just that your "evidence" is lacking.

You do not understand what is being said to you.....I implied that if you want proof, you will need to experience prescience for yourself....

Do not blame me because your mind is not sufficiently sensitive to resonate with the natural environmental background...

 

[McBell]

**climbs up onto pontton boat**

Did I get any of it on me?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

**climbs up onto pontton boat**

Did I get any of it on me?

What is a ponnton boat?

 

[McBell]

What is a ponnton boat?

a typo

 

[Shad]

You do not understand what is being said to you.....I implied that if you want proof, you will need to experience prescience for yourself....

A control study can show the reliability of such a claim. The fact that you are putting forward it is only subjective means you can not support your claims.

Do not blame me because your mind is not sufficiently sensitive to resonate with the natural environmental background...

I can blame you for the lack of support for your claims and the inability to demonstrate the source of these claims. Not my problem you have zero standards.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

A control study can show the reliability of such a claim. The fact that you are putting forward it is only subjective means you can not support your claims.

I can blame you for the lack of support for your claims and the inability to demonstrate the source of these claims. Not my problem you have zero standards.

I could not care less what someone of your level thinks Shad....this is about human evolutionary leadership...and those who have not ever experienced any form of ESP can be regarded as slow....

 

[Shad]

I could not care less what someone of your level thinks Shad....this is about human evolutionary leadership...and those who have not ever experienced any form of ESP can be regarded as slow....

No it is about a person making a claim they can not support. Everything you attach to this claim is irrelevant if your claim can not be supported. You obviously care since you respond to me. If you didn't care you wouldn't bother at all.

Now you are using your unsustainable ESP to claim those without it are slow? Or is this perhaps a way of boasting your ego after the failure of you to demonstrated your claim. I can do that as well. Those that believe in ESP are mentally unstable due to believing in a delusion. /Pads self on back

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No it is about a person making a claim they can not support. Everything you attach to this claim is irrelevant if your claim can not be supported. You obviously care since you respond to me. If you didn't care you wouldn't bother at all.

Now you are using your unsustainable ESP to claim those without it are slow? Or is this perhaps a way of boasting your ego after the failure of you to demonstrated your claim. I can do that as well. Those that believe in ESP are mentally unstable due to believing in a delusion. /Pads self on back

Shad...evolutionary survival for most species has always depended on those individuals with ESP.....knowing where food was...the early detection of predators..a coming storm or earthquake.. You think this does not apply to the human race?

 

[McBell]

Shad...evolutionary survival for most species has always depended on those individuals with ESP.....knowing where food was...the early detection of predators..a coming storm or earthquake.. You think this does not apply to the human race?

Based on the way you use the term "ESP" I cannot help but wonder if you are defining differently than the rest of us.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Based on the way you use the term "ESP" I cannot help but wonder if you are defining differently than the rest of us.

ESP is an apparent power to perceive things that are not present to the primary senses...

 

[McBell]

ESP is an apparent power to perceive things that are not present to the primary senses...

so a telescope, or microscope, or an MRI?