What's with the Dharmic/Mudra imagery in Christian art?

[Leftimies]

Why is there such a strong Indian presence to a lot of the iconographic Christian art? Specifically, what's up with all the hand gestures in Christian art, which - let be honest here - look pretty damn much like Dharmic mudras. No hand gestures are described in the Bible, so where did they come from?

Did the 'Christian mudras' come from Hinduism, Jainism or Buddhism directly? Or could their origin be in Manicheanism, with which Christianity competed at one point? Or is it an independent development - and if its independent development, why aren't they mentioned in any of the Christian literature?

I am quite bewildered as to the origin of these hand gestures. Any thoughts?

 

[Sees]

Where are some pictures to go along with the OP?

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

I'm guessing the OP means images like this:

 

[Jumi]

They look pretty cool, I guess most of them are from sign language of emotions used by the Greeks and Roman public speakers. Who knows what the origin of those hand signs are? They might have had significance more universal to Indo-Europeans.

 

[Leftimies]

I'm guessing the OP means images like this:

Yes, this was actually a picture featured on a long list of Christian iconography images that I was originally supposed to put out. But my computer crashed because of system memory failure, and the first posting attempt went to hell. I was too frustrated to go and find all the images again

 

[Leftimies]

They look pretty cool, I guess most of them are from sign language of emotions used by the Greeks and Roman public speakers. Who knows what the origin of those hand signs are? They might have had significance more universal to Indo-Europeans.

This seems like the most plausible idea to me, actually, now that I think about it. There are a lot of common points between Greek philosophical traditions and Indian philosophical traditions, in addition to linguistic as well as ethnic relations between the two.

What was the point of definite divergence between the European/Greek and Indian lineages of PIE proto-culture? Do we have any solid idea when the two grew apart? A few thousand years ago? Or more to the effect of a ten thousand years or more?

 

[Sees]

This seems like the most plausible idea to me, actually, now that I think about it. There are a lot of common points between Greek philosophical traditions and Indian philosophical traditions, in addition to linguistic as well as ethnic relations between the two.

What was the point of definite divergence between the European/Greek and Indian lineages of PIE proto-culture? Do we have any solid idea when the two grew apart? A few thousand years ago? Or more to the effect of a ten thousand years or more?

The PIE divergence timeframe is muddled and I think it is partly intentional. The more you look at it, the more it seems like folks are throwing noodles at the wall to see if any stick or anybody notices.

 

[George-ananda]

Any thoughts?

My belief is that Jesus spent time in his 'missing years' in the Himalayan/Indian region which was the world's hotbed for spirituality in those days (and maybe today). The world was trading and mixing ideas at that time (and still today). What we traditionally know of Jesus was more his mission as a Jewish reformer and teacher/healer.

 

[Jainarayan]

The hand position is placing two fingers together to represent the dual nature of Christ, and three to represent the Trinity. This is distinctly Eastern Orthodox. The lettering at the top of the icon, IC XC represents "Jesus Christ, the one who conquers all". This is a typical pantocrator (ruler of all) icon. I have this icon, given to me many years ago as a gift when I entered the Eastern Orthodox Church. It's somewhere in the house. Eastern Orthodox icons follow very strict rules for writing them (yes writing, not painting). I do not believe this has anything at all to do with Hindu or Buddhist mudras.

 

[Jumi]

In Russian Orthodoxy they changed one of the hand signs in 17th century. It was one of the reasons that lead to forming and persecution of the Old Believers.

 

[Jainarayan]

In Russian Orthodoxy they changed one of the hand signs in 17th century. It was one of the reasons that lead to forming and persecution of the Old Believers.

People will create, find or use any excuse to hurt each other.

 

[Shiranui117]

The hand position is placing two fingers together to represent the dual nature of Christ, and three to represent the Trinity. This is distinctly Eastern Orthodox. The lettering at the top of the icon, IC XC represents "Jesus Christ, the one who conquers all". This is a typical pantocrator (ruler of all) icon. I have this icon, given to me many years ago as a gift when I entered the Eastern Orthodox Church. It's somewhere in the house. Eastern Orthodox icons follow very strict rules for writing them (yes writing, not painting). I do not believe this has anything at all to do with Hindu or Buddhist mudras.

I was about to write a post about this, but you did it for me. Thanks!

 

[Shiranui117]

In Russian Orthodoxy they changed one of the hand signs in 17th century. It was one of the reasons that lead to forming and persecution of the Old Believers.

In either case, pre-Nikonian reform or post-Nikonian reform (Nikon was the name of the Russian Patriarch who authorized changes in some of the Russian ritual to bring it into conformity with the newer Greek norms), the symbolism of the hand sign is identical to that which Thorbjorn described. The modern way of doing it carries the same meaning, but with a slightly different finger configuration: thumb, forefinger and middle finger held together in a point to represent the three persons of the Trinity, and the pinky and ring finger held down to the palm to signify Jesus' united humanity and divinity, as opposed to the old way of thumb, pinky and ring finger representing the Trinity, and the index finger and ring finger symbolising Jesus' two natures.

 

[Jainarayan]

What was the point of definite divergence between the European/Greek and Indian lineages of PIE proto-culture? Do we have any solid idea when the two grew apart? A few thousand years ago? Or more to the effect of a ten thousand years or more?

PIE was spoken about 6,000 years ago around the Black Sea area. Within the next few thousand years it diverged going west into Europe and south into the Iranian plateau and Indian subcontinent.

It took about 1,000 years for PIE to change into Proto-Indo-Iranian, and another 1,000 years for Proto-Indo-Iranian to split into the Iranian languages and Vedic Sanskrit. Proto-Greek appeared about the same time. So when all is said and done, between about 4000 BCE and 2000 BCE we have PIE splitting into most of its daughter languages. It was actually pretty fast.

 

[Jainarayan]

The PIE divergence timeframe is muddled and I think it is partly intentional. The more you look at it, the more it seems like folks are throwing noodles at the wall to see if any stick or anybody notices.

That's quite true. Like any other subject, "experts" in a field have their own blinders and professional biases.

 

[Deidre]

My belief is that Jesus spent time in his 'missing years' in the Himalayan/Indian region which was the world's hotbed for spirituality in those days (and maybe today). The world was trading and mixing ideas at that time (and still today). What we traditionally know of Jesus was more his mission as a Jewish reformer and teacher/healer.

That is really your belief? That's really interesting!

 

[Desert Snake]

There is no reason to think that Jesus did not go elsewhere, especially as He returned after the ascension. I believe that Jesus taught all over, asia, Japan, and elsewhere.

 

[George-ananda]

There is no reason to think that Jesus did not go elsewhere, especially as He returned after the ascension. I believe that Jesus taught all over, asia, Japan, and elsewhere.

Interesting. You mean after the ascension he came back to earth as a living, breathing human? What are your reasons for this belief? Also, don't the Mormons think Jesus also came to America to teach (or am I confused)?

 

[Desert Snake]

Interesting. You mean after the ascension he came back to earth as a living, breathing human? What are your reasons for this belief? Also, don't the Mormons think Jesus also came to America to teach (or am I confused)?

Jesus isn't ''human'' in the same way we are. He came back, yes, and then traveled and taught. The Mormon issue, you would have to ask in the Mormon DIR, for specifics.
//
The reasons are because there is traditional belief that Jesus was elsewhere , /like Japan/, and evidence to back this up.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

There is no reason to think that Jesus did not go elsewhere, especially as He returned after the ascension. I believe that Jesus taught all over, asia, Japan, and elsewhere.

In Japan, one can visit a site claimed to be the grave of Jesus.