Jesus and Paul's teachings, Is there a difference?

[Yoshua]

I think there are so many, it would be hard to limit the number to use. Romans 3;28 V James 2;24 to start with. The issue of faith and works. Jesus said Justification = F+W while Paul states it's F-W. Another is about feeding the poor. Matthew 25; 31-46 while Paul writes in 2Thess 3; 10 that those who don't work should not eat. Shall we continue???

The only admonitions about women in church are from Paul. The only discussion of gays, and this is very open to interpretation is by Paul. Christ NEVER taught this. There is tons but but that is a start Yoshua.

Hi Jo,

We should study the context well here. It seems that they are contradicted with each other. In Eph. 2:8-10, it was clearly stated that we are not saved by good works instead we are saved by faith. The good works/work here is the result of our faith with God. Christian should be seen with good works caused by faith.

Eph. 2:8-10
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

In v.14, What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? James is demonstrating if a man has faith, but has no works, how could faith save him. He used this to illustrate what is faith without works. He did not say--faith cannot saved.

James then used the analogy of a brother or sister without clothing, and need of daily food by giving them the necessary things for their body, then they would be complete. Therefore, James showed us the importance of having faith incorporate with good works. It does not mean that work without faith can saved.

15. If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16. and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself

In v. 17, James concluded that faith without works is dead being by itself. That is a dead faith—an unreal faith. He displayed his reasoning by this kind of analogy "You have faith, and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." James examined the two kinds of faith, the dead faith and the alive faith. This is the reason why in v.19, that even the demons believe in God, and not faith in God. Demon does not trust in God, they only believe that there is God. True faith transforms life.

James used Abraham as an example from what he is implying. In the first place, he should not use Abraham as an example if he is contradicting with Paul’s justification by faith. James is saying that if a person is genuinely saved by faith, there should be good works in a person’s life. He does not teach that works are necessary for salvation.

21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God.
24. You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

James end his statement about faith, and that is what he is trying to convey. In v.24, he is saying that faith is always there as credited to righteousness. The “man is justified by works” means by Abraham’s faith with God, he showed his faith by his works (physical act). People look at the external (works), but God sees our heart (faith). How can we show our faith if it is not accompanied by our works which people usually see?

The Judgment
31. "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32. "And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33. and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34. "Then the King will say to those on His right, `Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35. `For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36. naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
37. "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, `Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink?
38. `And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39. `And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40. "And the King will answer and say to them, `Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
41. "Then He will also say to those on His left, `Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42. for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43. I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44. "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, `Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45. "Then He will answer them, saying, `Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

2 Thess.3:10-12
10. For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone will not work, neither let him eat.
11. For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies.
12. Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion and eat their own bread.

I don’t think that this contradicts with Matthew’s message about mercy by feeding and giving drink to those who are thirsty. In 2 Thess. 3:10-12, God is not favored to a lazy person. In the above messages before v.31, the parables showed that a lazy person cannot bring success to life, instead the talent was given to the one who has ten talents.

Matt.25:26-30
26. "But his master answered and said to him, `You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow, and gather where I scattered no seed.
27. `Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
28. `Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'

The Bible does not teach us to do nothing (as in lazy). It is emphasized in v.11 “For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies.” From the start of humankind, God told Adam that he shall work to eat.

Gen. 3:18-19
18. "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
19. By the sweat of your face
You shall eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;

For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return."

Thanks

 

[Tumah]

Jesus and Paul's teachings, Is there a difference?

Yes. One of their teachings may have been written down firsthand. The other's was definitely not.

 

[savagewind]

I think Jesus taught how to progress in the truth. I think Paul taught how to escape sin's bondage. A person can't obey Jesus for freedom if he is a slave to sin. Remember it is said of Paul that he was an apostle to the nations. It is written that the nations are lying in the power of wickedness. Paul teaches escape from that.

 

[wizanda]

Here is my list of Yeshua's - jesus's Vs Saul's - Paul's points...Plus there are loads more.

...

Within what you've written above, you're mixing different authors ideologies together...James, Yeshua and Paul are totally different people, with different concepts being discussed.

End result in both Revelations and by Yeshua's words, you will be judged according to your works...Faith in God is just expected....Faith in a faulty Biblical understanding, will get you sent to hell.

 

[metis]

We should study the context well here. It seems that they are contradicted with each other. In Eph. 2:8-10, it was clearly stated that we are not saved by good works instead we are saved by faith. The good works/work here is the result of our faith with God. Christian should be seen with good works caused by faith.

But people need to put this in context otherwise one might conclude that Paul is a schizophrenic. Paul writes in other letters that faith without good works is no faith at all. So, what's going on here?

Two problems, one is that Paul writes in a dualistic manner, no doubt an influence of his Greek education. When using dualisms, there's a strong tendency to exaggerate: black v white, good v evil, light v darkness, etc. IOW, shades of gray are not typically used. It's not likely that Jesus spoke that way since there's really no indication that he was Greek educated.

Secondly, the word in Koine Greek used for the English word "faith" is "pistis", and that word in Greek implies action whereas in English it may or may not imply action. IOW, "pistis means one lives out the teachings of Jesus in this context, and not just sits back and believes about them. This is the main theme in Matthew 25 with Jesus' Parable of the Sheep & Goats (remember that the "goats" believe about Jesus but not in him-- the in implying one lives out the faith that Jesus taught).

So, why do we read about Paul's condemnation of "good works"? It's easy to miss if one isn't looking for it, but what he's doing is talking about "good works under the Law". IOW, what Paul is saying is that following the Mosaiic Law doesn't "save" one, but belief in Jesus does. But remember that the in refers to more than just belief about Jesus.

 

[Thanda]

I agree with most of your post. I think though that christians who teach "Saved by Faith Alone" are in the end confusing the issue. As you have noted faith and actions cannot be divorced from each other. True faith in God automatically leads to godly actions. Therefore each person can judge himself by his works to determine how strong his faith is. So the best definition of how one gains salvation is F + W. Or perhaps most appropriately Faith + Grace = Good Works = Good Judgement Day = Salvation.

So when God judges us at the last day he will look at our works. As Jesus said he will ask us whether we fed him when he was hungry or clothed him when he was naked. He will not ask us whether we believed he was the Saviour or whether we thought we had received Jesus.

 

[metis]

So when God judges us at the last day he will look at our works. As Jesus said he will ask us whether we fed him when he was hungry or clothed him when he was naked. He will not ask us whether we believed he was the Saviour or whether we thought we had received Jesus.

And this is a valid point, imo. We see Jesus often down-playing himself while up-playing his message of compassion and justice for all.

 

[savagewind]

I think Jesus will look at what a person's works have made, not at all the works independently.
1 Corinthians 3:10-15

 

[Simplelogic]

James versus Paul

Good distinction here between James and Paul.

 

[metis]

James versus Paul

Good distinction here between James and Paul.

This I can buy because it seems that James is much less willing to abandon the Law.

But Paul won in the long run, and with the gentiles gradually taking over the movement, it became moot anyway.

 

[Simplelogic]

This I can buy because it seems that James is much less willing to abandon the Law.

But Paul won in the long run, and with the gentiles gradually taking over the movement, it became moot anyway.

Agreed. Paul did win out because he promoted submission to Roman authority. But if James (Jesus's brother) was still adamant about keeping the law of Moses then what does that say about the real Jesus? If we only have one man on record for going against the Torah (Paul) then Christianity has a lot of explaining to do.

 

[metis]

Agreed. Paul did win out because he promoted submission to Roman authority. But if James (Jesus's brother) was still adamant about keeping the law of Moses then what does that say about the real Jesus? If we only have one man on record for going against the Torah (Paul) then Christianity has a lot of explaining to do.

The reason why Paul won has much more to do with gentiles taking over the church, and they're not bound by Jewish Law.

I don't see Paul teachings as being counter to Jesus', but there's not much doubt he went much further in his theology than Jesus did. He was quite bright and imaginative, so you gotta give him credit for that at least.

If Paul was so far out of line with the apostles, there's no way they would have had anything to do with him, plus his letters never would have had the circulation they did in the fist century church.

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

Hi Jo,

We should study the context well here. It seems that they are contradicted with each other. In Eph. 2:8-10, it was clearly stated that we are not saved by good works instead we are saved by faith. The good works/work here is the result of our faith with God. Christian should be seen with good works caused by faith.

Eph. 2:8-10
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

In v.14, What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? James is demonstrating if a man has faith, but has no works, how could faith save him. He used this to illustrate what is faith without works. He did not say--faith cannot saved.

James then used the analogy of a brother or sister without clothing, and need of daily food by giving them the necessary things for their body, then they would be complete. Therefore, James showed us the importance of having faith incorporate with good works. It does not mean that work without faith can saved.

15. If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16. and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself

In v. 17, James concluded that faith without works is dead being by itself. That is a dead faith—an unreal faith. He displayed his reasoning by this kind of analogy "You have faith, and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." James examined the two kinds of faith, the dead faith and the alive faith. This is the reason why in v.19, that even the demons believe in God, and not faith in God. Demon does not trust in God, they only believe that there is God. True faith transforms life.

James used Abraham as an example from what he is implying. In the first place, he should not use Abraham as an example if he is contradicting with Paul’s justification by faith. James is saying that if a person is genuinely saved by faith, there should be good works in a person’s life. He does not teach that works are necessary for salvation.

21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God.
24. You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

James end his statement about faith, and that is what he is trying to convey. In v.24, he is saying that faith is always there as credited to righteousness. The “man is justified by works” means by Abraham’s faith with God, he showed his faith by his works (physical act). People look at the external (works), but God sees our heart (faith). How can we show our faith if it is not accompanied by our works which people usually see?

The Judgment
31. "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32. "And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33. and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34. "Then the King will say to those on His right, `Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35. `For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36. naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
37. "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, `Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink?
38. `And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39. `And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40. "And the King will answer and say to them, `Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
41. "Then He will also say to those on His left, `Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42. for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43. I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44. "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, `Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45. "Then He will answer them, saying, `Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

2 Thess.3:10-12
10. For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone will not work, neither let him eat.
11. For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies.
12. Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion and eat their own bread.

I don’t think that this contradicts with Matthew’s message about mercy by feeding and giving drink to those who are thirsty. In 2 Thess. 3:10-12, God is not favored to a lazy person. In the above messages before v.31, the parables showed that a lazy person cannot bring success to life, instead the talent was given to the one who has ten talents.

Matt.25:26-30
26. "But his master answered and said to him, `You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow, and gather where I scattered no seed.
27. `Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
28. `Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'

The Bible does not teach us to do nothing (as in lazy). It is emphasized in v.11 “For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies.” From the start of humankind, God told Adam that he shall work to eat.

Gen. 3:18-19
18. "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
19. By the sweat of your face
You shall eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;

For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return."

Thanks

If you use the teachings of Paul to verify the teachings of Jesus, and the teachings of Jesus to verify the teachings of Paul then you will have the Gospel. If you can not do this then you have two Gospels. If you have two Gospels and you mingle them together to make one then you have neither.

 

[Yoshua]

Yes. One of their teachings may have been written down firsthand. The other's was definitely not.

Thanks Tumah for your answer. May we ask you to elaborate more in details about the teachings that may have been written down firsthand?

 

[Yoshua]

But people need to put this in context otherwise one might conclude that Paul is a schizophrenic. Paul writes in other letters that faith without good works is no faith at all. So, what's going on here?

Two problems, one is that Paul writes in a dualistic manner, no doubt an influence of his Greek education. When using dualisms, there's a strong tendency to exaggerate: black v white, good v evil, light v darkness, etc. IOW, shades of gray are not typically used. It's not likely that Jesus spoke that way since there's really no indication that he was Greek educated.

Secondly, the word in Koine Greek used for the English word "faith" is "pistis", and that word in Greek implies action whereas in English it may or may not imply action. IOW, "pistis means one lives out the teachings of Jesus in this context, and not just sits back and believes about them. This is the main theme in Matthew 25 with Jesus' Parable of the Sheep & Goats (remember that the "goats" believe about Jesus but not in him-- the in implying one lives out the faith that Jesus taught).

So, why do we read about Paul's condemnation of "good works"? It's easy to miss if one isn't looking for it, but what he's doing is talking about "good works under the Law". IOW, what Paul is saying is that following the Mosaiic Law doesn't "save" one, but belief in Jesus does. But remember that the in refers to more than just belief about Jesus.

Wow. Metis. Yes. Thanks for that message.

 

[Yoshua]

I agree with most of your post. I think though that christians who teach "Saved by Faith Alone" are in the end confusing the issue. As you have noted faith and actions cannot be divorced from each other. True faith in God automatically leads to godly actions. Therefore each person can judge himself by his works to determine how strong his faith is. So the best definition of how one gains salvation is F + W. Or perhaps most appropriately Faith + Grace = Good Works = Good Judgement Day = Salvation.

So when God judges us at the last day he will look at our works. As Jesus said he will ask us whether we fed him when he was hungry or clothed him when he was naked. He will not ask us whether we believed he was the Saviour or whether we thought we had received Jesus.

Hi Thanda,

Just to clarify with your last statement here. How come that Jesus will receive you in His kingdom when a person does not acknowledge, believe and receive Jesus?
Did Paul said in Acts 16:31, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household."

John 3:36
36. "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 11:25-26
25. Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies,
26. and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Thanks

 

[Tumah]

Thanks Tumah for your answer. May we ask you to elaborate more in details about the teachings that may have been written down firsthand?

There's not much to elaborate. Paul supposedly wrote down what he wanted to say. Jesus didn't.

 

[JesusBeliever]

15. If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16. and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself

In v. 17, James concluded that faith without works is dead being by itself. That is a dead faith—an unreal faith. He displayed his reasoning by this kind of analogy "You have faith, and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." James examined the two kinds of faith, the dead faith and the alive faith. This is the reason why in v.19, that even the demons believe in God, and not faith in God. Demon does not trust in God, they only believe that there is God. True faith transforms life.

Hi there, this reminds me of what Jesus said when He told His followers to "seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness". Just prior to saying this He was encouraging His followers to have faith in God making provisions for our daily needs:

"Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven,shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Mat 6:25-34

A person that has faith in God's promise to make provisions for their daily needs, shows their faith by being willing to share these provisions with those in need. A prime example of this is the miracle of the loaves and fishes. If necessary, the Lord will make miraculous provisions for those who have faith in Him. Imagine if the lad in this story had not had faith to share his provisions:

"There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many? And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand. And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would. When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost. Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten. Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world." Joh 6:9-14

This story shows faith in action.

 

[Thanda]

Hi Thanda,

Just to clarify with your last statement here. How come that Jesus will receive you in His kingdom when a person does not acknowledge, believe and receive Jesus?
Did Paul said in Acts 16:31, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household."

John 3:36
36. "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 11:25-26
25. Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies,
26. and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Thanks

I did not say Jesus would let you in his kingdom without acknowledging him.

There are two people: one is a mother Theresa-like Hindu and the other a Hitler-like Christian. At the day of Judgement the Hindu and the christian will stand before Jesus Christ. Upon seeing Jesus Christ the Hindu acknowledges that he is God. The Christian already knows that. Now they are on equal footing as far as acknowledging Jesus is concerned. Now Jesus comes to the question of their works. The Christian is found wanting and is sent to hell and the Hindu is found to have lived a Christlike life and is admitted into heaven

 

[Thanda]

There's not much to elaborate. Paul supposedly wrote down what he wanted to say. Jesus didn't.

Paul didn't write down what he wanted to say. He wrote down what he wanted to write.