Qur'an 25:53 for paarsurrey

[Kirran]

So myself and @paarsurrey were having a discussion about the scientific verifiability or lack thereof of certain Qur'anic verses, and he requested I make a separate thread to continue the discussion.

So, without further ado, I'd like to address Qur'an 25:53: "And He it is Who has made two seas to flow freely, the one sweet that subdues thirst by its sweetness, and the other salt that burns by its saltness; and between the two He has made a barrier and inviolable obstruction."

There is no inviolable obstruction between seas. There is a barrier which allows for diffusion. So I see this as a scientific error in the Qur'an, refuting its infallibility. I am open to explanations as to why this is not the case.

 

[Sabour]

Modern Science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh(sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from that found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuarie is a "pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers." {Oceanography, Gross, p.242. Also see Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, pp. 300-301 ; Oceanography, Gross, p. 244 and Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, pp.300-301} This phenomenon occurs in several places, including Egypt, where the river Nile flows into the Medierranean Sea.



Source: Islam Guide: The Quran on Seas and Rivers

 

[YmirGF]

Modern Science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh(sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from that found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuarie is a "pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers." {Oceanography, Gross, p.242. Also see Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, pp. 300-301 ; Oceanography, Gross, p. 244 and Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, pp.300-301} This phenomenon occurs in several places, including Egypt, where the river Nile flows into the Medierranean Sea.



Source: Islam Guide: The Quran on Seas and Rivers

The problem with this, One-answer, is that nobody on the planet considers the Nile river to be a sea, plus there is also the inherent reality that the twain do mix - eventually.

Qur'an = 0
Science = 1

To get a richer idea of what the passage means in English, please review these several dozen English translations....

al-Furqan 25:53


Clearly, the Qur'an states that the twain never/cannot mix/meet. Also, clearly, is the fact that these two bodies of water do meet and mix, albeit slowly due to their different densities.

 

[Godobeyer]

The problem with this, One-answer, is that nobody on the planet considers the Nile river to be a sea, plus there is also the inherent reality that the twain do mix - eventually.

Qur'an = 0
Science = 1

To get a richer idea of what the passage means in English, please review these several dozen English translations....

al-Furqan 25:53


Clearly, the Qur'an states that the twain never/cannot mix/meet. Also, clearly, is the fact that these two bodies of water do meet and mix, albeit slowly due to their different densities.

go check it in Alaska Gulf

There is a place in the Gulf of Alaska where two oceans meet but do not mix. - OMG Facts - The World's #1 Fact Source

 

[Shad]

Modern Science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh(sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from that found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuarie is a "pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers." {Oceanography, Gross, p.242. Also see Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, pp. 300-301 ; Oceanography, Gross, p. 244 and Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, pp.300-301} This phenomenon occurs in several places, including Egypt, where the river Nile flows into the Medierranean Sea.



Source: Islam Guide: The Quran on Seas and Rivers

These are not barriers which are "inviolable obstructions" thus you explanation does not fit. Water can pass through it thus it mixes. It is restrictive but does not prevent mixing

Pycnocline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.tos.org/oceanography/archive/22-1_franks.pdf

go check it in Alaska Gulf

There is a place in the Gulf of Alaska where two oceans meet but do not mix. - OMG Facts - The World's #1 Fact Source

That is an water upsurge of cold glacial water from a lower depth. You also failed to follow the link within your own source which clearly says the water mixes

Merging Oceans - Where Two Oceans Meet - Facts Analysis | Science

"This happens when glaciers of fresh water start melting and flow to join the ocean water which is more salty. Because of the difference in the salinity and densities of these two meeting ocean water bodies, a surface tension is developed between them that acts like a thin wall and does not allow them to mix. But given enough time, they will eventually mix together."

Salt and fresh water mix, this is grade school chemistry.

None of which is a barrier that is a "inviolable obstructions" You should read everything you link rather than go straight for confirmation bias thus looking foolish.

Inviolable | Define Inviolable at Dictionary.com
Obstruction | Define Obstruction at Dictionary.com

Also this was a common idea before Islam even started

The Internet Classics Archive | Meteorology by Aristotle

 

[Aupmanyav]

Happens even in rivers, by grace of Allah. Sindh and Zanskar in Ladakh; Bhagirathi and Alaknanda (After which the river is known as Ganga) in Devprayag, Uttarkhand; Yamuna and Ganga in Allahabad (the third river Saraswati is hidden). Of course, eventually, all waters become one. Sindh, Bhagirathi and Yamuna waters are bluer.

 

[YmirGF]

go check it in Alaska Gulf

There is a place in the Gulf of Alaska where two oceans meet but do not mix. - OMG Facts - The World's #1 Fact Source

Comprehension can be a difficult thing.

The Qur'an is simply wrong and you WILL NOT find one place it hold true as proclaimed by Allah in the Qur'an. Given the primitive understanding of the time, the passage is perhaps forgivable as it would seem true to folks who had no ability to test the veracity of the claim. Allah, on the other hand, should have known better... if he was a real god.

 

[Shad]

Comprehension can be a difficult thing.

The Qur'an is simply wrong and you WILL NOT find one place it hold true as proclaimed by Allah in the Qur'an. Given the primitive understanding of the time, the passage is perhaps forgivable as it would seem true to folks who had no ability to test the veracity of the claim. Allah, on the other hand, should have known better... if he was a real god.

You are far more forgiving than I am especially since most of the citation made by others are apologist websites while mine are not.

 

[Godobeyer]

That is an water upsurge of cold glacial water from a lower depth. You also failed to follow the link within your own source which clearly says the water mixes

Merging Oceans - Where Two Oceans Meet - Facts Analysis | Science

"This happens when glaciers of fresh water start melting and flow to join the ocean water which is more salty. Because of the difference in the salinity and densities of these two meeting ocean water bodies, a surface tension is developed between them that acts like a thin wall and does not allow them to mix. But given enough time, they will eventually mix together."

Salt and fresh water mix, this is grade school chemistry.

Yes i know ,it's about salt and fresh water mix , that verse of Quran may speak about this phenomen .

at the image shows , the sea split to two colors with thin barrier , that's what exactly the verse said .

two

 

[Shad]

Yes i know ,it's about salt and fresh water mix , that verse of Quran may speak about this phenomen .

at the image shows , the sea split to two colors with thin barrier , that's what exactly the verse said .

two

No, the verse says the waters can not pass the barrier and mix. However your own citations source says it does mix. It helps if you actually read both the verse and what you link instead of looking at pictures alone.... I know its hard when your own source contradicts you. Beside Aristotle thought the same centuries before Islam thus the verse is merely repeating outdated and incorrect human knowledge from 300 BCE. Also grade school chemistry proves you wrong. I did the experiment when I was in grade 8 at age 14 if I remember correctly.

Aka brackish water. Kindergarten is ages 4-5....

 

[YmirGF]

Aka brackish water. Kindergarten is ages 4-5....

This is so mind-numbingly simple that I'm not sure why Muslims would cling to the notion that the passage in question is accurate. It is not. Case closed.

 

[Shad]

This is so mind-numbingly simple that I'm not sure why Muslims would cling to the notion that the passage in question is accurate. It is not. Case closed.

Because they believe in literalism in which the Quran is God's word directly from Gabriel to Muhammad. It can not be wrong or the religion collapses. It is an ideology indoctrinated at a young age thus is hard to give up since it denotes a few uncomfortable facts regarding their parents, religious leaders, religious tradition, religion itself and education system.

 

[Kirran]

Any rebuttal I might have made has been made, thus far.

This really does seem to be just incorrect.

I personally think it is unhealthy to claim that a scripture is infallible, and to take it in a literalist way. And I see seeing it like that as incompatible with this verse.

 

[YmirGF]

Because they believe in literalism in which the Quran is God's word directly from Gabriel to Muhammad. It can not be wrong or the religion collapses. It is an ideology indoctrinated at a young age thus is hard to give up since it denotes a few uncomfortable facts regarding their parents, religious leaders, religious tradition, religion itself and education system.

Actually, it was more of a "wtf" type comment, as I fully agree with what you are saying and am fully aware of that problem Islam faces.

 

[YmirGF]

Any rebuttal I might have made has been made, thus far.

This really does seem to be just incorrect.

I personally think it is unhealthy to claim that a scripture is infallible, and to take it in a literalist way. And I see seeing it like that as incompatible with this verse.

I know, right. Claiming something is inerrant just begs attacks. I don't see how any self-respecting Muslim could possibly defend this passage and retain an iota of intellectual credibility.

Shall we move on to another amusing inaccuracy in the Qur'an.

 

[Shad]

Any rebuttal I might have made has been made, thus far.

This really does seem to be just incorrect.

I personally think it is unhealthy to claim that a scripture is infallible, and to take it in a literalist way. And I see seeing it like that as incompatible with this verse.

There are alternative interpretation such as a land masses separating water like the Sinai or the Sea of Galilee from the Dead Sea or Mediterranean. There is the interpretation of the fresh water as rain since it does not contain salt. However the answers provided by Muslims are all part of the 1970s scientific miracle crazy which attempts retrofit science into Islam so it gains credibility. It only has traction with those isolated from secular, high tier education systems or strictly enrolled in religious schools.

 

[Kirran]

I know, right. Claiming something is inerrant just begs attacks. I don't see how any self-respecting Muslim could possibly defend this passage and retain an iota of intellectual credibility.

Shall we move on to another amusing inaccuracy in the Qur'an.

Hmm. Shad has raised some ideas I hadn't really considered. We'll need to consider them first. If we find that actually, yes, there is a valid interpretation of this verse which is accurate, then we can move on to another one.

There are alternative interpretation such as a land masses separating water like the Sinai or the Sea of Galilee from the Dead Sea or Mediterranean. There is the interpretation of the fresh water as rain since it does not contain salt. However the answers provided by Muslims are all part of the 1970s scientific miracle crazy which attempts retrofit science into Islam so it gains credibility. It only has traction with those isolated from secular, high tier education systems or strictly enrolled in religious schools.

That's interesting. OK. So I think this first understanding can be refuted. On to those you have raised.

Now, why does this verse specify 'flow freely'?

 

[Shad]

Hmm. Shad has raised some ideas I hadn't really considered. We'll need to consider them first. If we find that actually, yes, there is a valid interpretation of this verse which is accurate, then we can move on to another one.



That's interesting. OK. So I think this first understanding can be refuted. On to those you have raised.

Now, why does this verse specify 'flow freely'?

The Sea of Galilee is free flowing as is Mediterranean. A land divide prevents these from mixing at all. However this would be common knowledge to anyone visiting the area, which Muhammad did as would any Jew that knew about Canaan. It would merely be repeating knowledge already known thus not very impressive.

The rain interpretation applies to an alternative translation of Quran, 25:53 "He is the one who has set free the two kinds of water, one sweet and palatable, and the other salty and bitter. And He has made between them a barrier and a forbidding partition." However such an idea is already found in the Bible thus is just repeating an idea every Jew that was taught or could read the Torah/Talmud would know. Again not a very impressive claim. Both of which were already covered by Aristotle as well in my link under the water cycle as evaporation of water leaves salt behind.

Each interpretation can be observed by anyone without the aid of a deity thus are mundane. Keep in mind the scientific miracles are supposed to be a "wow" factor rather than an obvious one anyone can make.

 

[Kirran]

The Sea of Galilee is free flowing as is Mediterranean. A land divide prevents these from mixing at all. However this would be common knowledge to anyone visiting the area, which Muhammad did as would any Jew that knew about Canaan. It would merely be repeating knowledge already known thus not very impressive.

The rain interpretation applies to an alternative translation of Quran, 25:53 "He is the one who has set free the two kinds of water, one sweet and palatable, and the other salty and bitter. And He has made between them a barrier and a forbidding partition." However such an idea is already found in the Bible thus is just repeating an idea every Jew that was taught or could read the Torah/Talmud. Again not a very impressive claim. Both of which were already covered by Aristotle as well in my link under the water cycle as evaporation of water leaves salt behind.

Each interpretation can be observed by anyone without the aid of a deity thus are mundane. Keep in mind the scientific miracles are supposed to be a "wow" factor rather than obvious one anyone can make.

So certainly, we can refute this being a 'scientific miracle'. But it cannot be used to refute the Qur'an's infallibility?

 

[Shad]

So certainly, we can refute this being a 'scientific miracle'. But it cannot be used to refute the Qur'an's infallibility?

The origin explanation's refutation would also apply to the infallibility claims. The explanations provided by me can be used to point out the verses are mundane human knowledge thus require no deity to figure out. Human knowledge leads to the conclusion of a human author thus literalism is refuted which would render core Islamic concepts equally mundane.